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[W:220,1256]***Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Omega Man said:
What "other" translations? I thought you adhered specifically to the NWT?


OM
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Absolutely not...I like to compare translations...I have several downloaded on my tablet...there are 10 mentioned in the article I posted...

Further support of the previous article...

The late A.T. Robertson who is considered to be one of the greatest Greek NT scholars that ever lived wrote the following concerning John 8:24 and 58: “That I am he (hoti ego eimi). Indirect discourse, but with no word in the predicate after the copula eimi. Jesus can mean either “that I am from above” (verse 23), “that I am the one sent from the Father or the Messiah” (7:18,28), “that I am the Light of the World” (8:12), “that I am the Deliverer from the bondage of sin” (8:28,31,36), “that I am” without supplying a predicate in the absolute sense as the Jews (Deuteronomy 32:39) used the language of Jehovah (cf. Isaiah 43:10 where the very words occur hina pisteusete--hoti ego eimi).”

And Jason BeDuhn, Ph.D, historian of religion and culture who is currently Professor of Religious Studies at Northern Arizona University wrote, “A quick glance at Smyth's Greek Grammar reveals that what we are dealing with in John 8:58 is a well-known Greek idiom. The pertinent entry is in section 1885 on verb tenses, which states, “The present, when accompanied by a definite or indefinite expression of past time, is used to express an action begun in the past and continued in the present. The 'progressive perfect' is often used in translation. Thus, ...I have been long (and am still) wondering.” I think you can see immediately that this entry applies to John 8:58, where the present verb eimi is accompanied by an expression of past time, prin Abraam gensthai.” — (Truth In Translation Accuracy and Bias in English Translation of the New Testament, Jason BeDuhn, Ch. 10, Tampering With Tenses p.106)
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The Meaning Of I Am In John 8:58
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

ludin said:
Simply no.

You have that backwards. Christianity is only polythiestic if you don't believe in the trinity.
As Christianity states there is only 1 God.

God is a spirit and does not have a body like man.
God as scripture has shown has 3 distinct personalities. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
All three in unity and 1 God.

there is nothing polytheistic about it.

the only way that you can treat it as polytheistic is to consider them each a God and individual people not connected to each other similar to what mormons and JW's teach.
Christ is not a created person. he was with God and Was God John 1:1.
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The myth of Christ was created.
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

ludin said:
Simply no.

You have that backwards. Christianity is only polythiestic if you don't believe in the trinity.
As Christianity states there is only 1 God.

God is a spirit and does not have a body like man.
God as scripture has shown has 3 distinct personalities. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
All three in unity and 1 God.

there is nothing polytheistic about it.

the only way that you can treat it as polytheistic is to consider them each a God and individual people not connected to each other similar to what mormons and JW's teach.
Christ is not a created person. he was with God and Was God John 1:1.
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That's polytheistic enough for me. Three gods (triune) in one. It's definitely cakeist, as in having your cake and eating it too.
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Elvira said:
But nowhere did Jesus himself claim to be God....he did not act like Satan, who sought worship for himself....instead Jesus truthfully stated.... “The Father is greater than I am.” John 14:28
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Only if you ignore the rest of the bible.

Please see Thomas say my lord and my God as he bow down and worshiped Christ.
Christ did not stop him.

Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.”
“My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him

In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as “O God,” indicating that Jesus is indeed God.

In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Elvira said:
Absolutely not...I like to compare translations...I have several downloaded on my tablet...there are 10 mentioned in the article I posted...

Further support of the previous article...



The Meaning Of I Am In John 8:58
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Precisely what I was referring to when I mentioned "eternal"; but still overlooks the fact that the NWT intentionally mistranslated by exclusively changing to the context to the past only. In other words, framing an alternate narrative (mistranslation) which rejects the prevailing narrative (correct word translation).


OM
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

What about by the end of the Gospels? If the Jews understood Christ to be declaring Himself to be God, then the charges against Him would be for saying He is God. Any such claim would have to be well-known by this time. So who did the Jews and others understand Christ to be saying He was? That He was the Son of God or that He was God?

Matthew 26:63 “And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you be the Christ, the Son of God.” Matthew 27:40, 43 “You that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If you be the Son of God, come down from the cross. 43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.” Here the Jews said that Jesus trusted in God and that they heard Him say that He was the Son of God. Did they understand Jesus as saying He was God? That would be an impossibility!

Mark 14:61 “Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62 And Jesus said, I am:” Mark 15:39 “when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.” Luke 22:67, 70 “Are you the Christ? tell us. ... 70 Then said they all, Are you then the Son of God? And he said unto them, You say that I am.” John 19:7 “The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.”

The Jews clearly never understood Jesus to be declaring Himself God. They only saw Him as saying He was the Son of God many times. The outrage would have been heard far and wide if Jesus had actually declared Himself to be God. There is no record anywhere in the entire New Testament of anyone even asking Him if He was God yet alone accusing Him of saying that He was God. So how could the Jews have seen Him to be saying He was God in John 8:58?

The disciples slept, ate, listened to His sermons, and traveled with Jesus almost everywhere He went. So if anyone is going to know if Jesus declared Himself to be God they are. So who did the disciples understand Jesus to be? Matthew 16:15-17 “He saith unto them, But whom say you that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed are you, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood has not revealed it unto you, but my Father which is in heaven.” So GOD the Father, who is in HEAVEN, revealed to Peter who was on EARTH, that Jesus was the Son of God. The disciples never saw Jesus as being God either.

Does the Bible call Jesus “God the Son” as Catholics and Trinitarians say or does the Bible call Christ the “Son of God”? Scripture always calls Jesus the “Son of God” in fact and with good reason. Because that is what He is to state the obvious!
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The Meaning Of I Am In John 8:58
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Omega Man said:
Absolutely. Let's take a look at the original Greek use of the term ειμι (verse 58), compare. That particular term, literally translated into English, means to be, to exist, to happen, to be present. In other words... IN THE PRESENT. The NWT on the other hand, intentionally (and oddly) mistranslated that Greek term into "I have been" (PAST).


OM
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It was intentional. you have to remember that the JW's are a branch of arianism. It was a heresy to deny the divinity of Christ.
you will also realize that she will not post any source that are not JW's as she is not allowed to.
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

ludin said:
Simply no.

You have that backwards. Christianity is only polythiestic if you don't believe in the trinity.
As Christianity states there is only 1 God.

God is a spirit and does not have a body like man.
God as scripture has shown has 3 distinct personalities. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
All three in unity and 1 God.

there is nothing polytheistic about it.

the only way that you can treat it as polytheistic is to consider them each a God and individual people not connected to each other similar to what mormons and JW's teach.
Christ is not a created person. he was with God and Was God John 1:1.
Click to expand...

Can got be a mediator between man and God?
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

zyzygy said:
The myth of Christ was created.
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Since Christ was a real person you would be wrong.
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

ludin said:
It was intentional. you have to remember that the JW's are a branch of arianism. It was a heresy to deny the divinity of Christ.
you will also realize that she will not post any source that are not JW's as she is not allowed to.
Click to expand...

That is a lie...look again...:roll:
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

ludin said:
Since Christ was a real person you would be wrong.
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I do not dispute that Jesus may have lived. I was referring to the myth of the magic Jesus.
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

ludin said:
As Christianity states there is only 1 God.

God is a spirit and does not have a body like man.
God as scripture has shown has 3 distinct personalities. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
All three in unity and 1 God.

there is nothing polytheistic about it.
Click to expand...
So god has a multiple personality disorder?
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

PoS said:
So god has a multiple personality disorder?
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Believing that you are a dad and your son and a ghost does seem to point to that.
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

PoS said:
So god has a multiple personality disorder?
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lol...all the intelligent conversation in your thread, and this is what you have to offer? :lol: I know this was meant to be a bait thread, but it's turned out to be very interesting. Try not to ruin it.
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

OlNate said:
lol...all the intelligent conversation in your thread, and this is what you have to offer? :lol: I know this was meant to be a bait thread, but it's turned out to be very interesting. Try not to ruin it.
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Ruin it? It was a wreck when it started.
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

OlNate said:
lol...all the intelligent conversation in your thread, and this is what you have to offer? :lol: I know this was meant to be a bait thread, but it's turned out to be very interesting. Try not to ruin it.
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Youve already done that by being here. Do you have a counter argument to what Ive said at all?
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

The Holy Trinity has had a problematic history, partly evidenced by point of fact that theologians still don’t agree on how it works, and partly seen from its ex post facto evolution, shoehorned into the scant evidence of the biblical texts. From Ignatius of Antioch onwards we see development of the idea in early church thinking, until it is codified at the Council of Nicaea in the 4th century CE. There will be more talk later on what was creedally set out.

In 325, the Council of Nicaea adopted the Nicene Creed which described Christ as “God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father”. The creed used the term homoousios (of one substance) to define the relationship between the Father and the Son. After more than fifty years of debate, homoousios was recognised as the hallmark of orthodoxy, and was further developed into the formula of “three persons, one being”.
To me, this is just word salad (as Andy Schueler would no doubt say). Try as I might, I can’t get this to make any sense. Because it doesn’t. They want to get out of the logical paradoxes and problems other theories imply, and so they produce something which doesn’t quite make sense and which relies on mystery! Yup, the mystery card. A bit like how some people around here have claimed contra-causal free will works! You can’t sidestep logic with a mystery card.


https://www.skepticink.com/tippling/2014/05/03/the-holy-trinity-as-incoherent-1/
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Omega Man said:
Precisely what I was referring to when I mentioned "eternal"; but still overlooks the fact that the NWT intentionally mistranslated by exclusively changing to the context to the past only. In other words, framing an alternate narrative (mistranslation) which rejects the prevailing narrative (correct word translation).


OM
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There is much more to the previous article I posted...there are also 40 some different translations of John 8:58 quoted, with the different renderings of "I AM"...

It is interesting that almost every single Bible translation has used CAPITALIZATION in Exodus 3:14 to show this is a NAME or TITLE of God. But almost every translation of John 8:58 for “I am” has NOT used Capitalization. The modern NKJV being one of the rare ones that has. Almost all Bible translations are done by Trinitarians and yet almost all did not Capitalize “I am” in John 8:58. This reveals that all these scholars knew there was no connection between Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58.

We find the same situation with cross-references in many well-known Bibles. For example, in the NASB, Reference Edition, Foundation Press, 1975, the Trinitarian New Testament editors used John 1:1; 17:5, 24 for all the cross-references for John 8:58. There is not one reference to Exodus 3:14 or Isaiah or any other Old Testament verse where God says “I am.” And the very Trinitarian RSV, American Bible Society, 1971 edition also has only John 1:1; 17:5, 24 as cross references for John 8:58. So none of these Trinitarian scholars accepted the “I am” argument as being a reference to God.

Some Trinitarian translators have gone even further and have not only not capitalized or used “I am” in John 8:58, but further clarify the probable meaning in English showing that they do not agree this is a reference to God. The translations below which interestingly enough are mostly by Trinitarians render ego eimi in John 8:58 as follows:
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The Meaning Of I Am In John 8:58
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

ludin said:
misspell? this makes no sense.
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It is someone who acts as an inbetween between two parties. An, no, it's not a misspell, it's an actual word.
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Elvira said:
But nowhere did Jesus himself claim to be God....he did not act like Satan, who sought worship for himself....instead Jesus truthfully stated.... “The Father is greater than I am.” John 14:28
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Jesus never claimed to be God because he wasn't. He was a person. The half human, half god idea was meant to appeal to the pagans.
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

devildavid said:
Or there can be many gods.
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There can, but as I said our concept of numbers, of one vs many, has no relevance on higher dimensional levels.
 
Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Good4Nothin said:
There can, but as I said our concept of numbers, of one vs many, has no relevance on higher dimensional levels.
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And , what evidence do you have that this is the case? What objective and tangible evidence do you have that 1) There are higher dimensional levels to begin with, and 2) If the higher dimentional levels exist, the concept of number have no relevance? Can you show this is something other than 'let's make things up'?
 
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