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Seeing the Unseen

Good4Nothin said:
No, it is not simpler. And no, we do not know that altering neural activity can cause complex mystical experiences.

If you come from the perspective of dogmatic materialism, then of course it seems simpler to explain away every non-material experience as being somehow created by the brain.

How the brain could possibly create these experiences is entirely unknown. Still your wild guesses turn out to be the simplest explanations.

This is a typical misuse of Occam's Razor, materialists do this all the time.
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Gods, supernatural beings and mystical realms are merely wild guesses.
 
Conaeolos said:
Personally, most of the ardent atheistic materialists I have met are above average in terms of being introspective, so I hesitate to conclude that is a major factor. Temperamentally though there does seem to be something at play. I also disagree, it is be categorized as being ‘unseen’ as the unconscious is always seen one way or another in the metaphors/methods of the person.

For sure though there is an ardent belief this ‘unseen but experienced’ is unreal and lessor in meaning than that of other 'outside' experiences. Schizophrenics are an interesting case to me in this regard. For ethical reasons it has not been extensively studied, but from what I’ve read, if you listened to the testimonies of a delusion and recreate it with special effects and actors (to the detail) the reaction is not as recorded. So intuitively there is an acknowledgement of what is ‘outside the mind’ and ‘inside the mind’ even when that is not consciously encoded and acted upon.

The crux of where I believe we (e.g. Good4Nothin & I) split from skeptics here (e.g. Sampson Simpson).

I think everyone acknowledges, cause and effect does flows out to in:
[outside our minds] => Brain => [experiences inside our brains]

Evidence: psychotics, neuron induction, brain damage …

And everyone sees that as different from: “Magical thinking”, which has cause and effect flowing in to out:
[experiences inside our brains] => Mind => [outside our minds]

Evidence: psychological help, placebo effect, longer average physical lives for more actualized people, death of babies with needs only care styles…

But because we find evidence of a two way street, we unlike skeptics choose instead of simply assuming the former real and the later less meaningful[only effect by what is inside the brain]; we question the relationship of cause and effect itself:

[experiences outside our minds] => brain/mind <= [experiences inside of our minds]

If both are true and cause or effect can be sourced in either verified reality [direction] by way a of third unified system, than suddenly where someone who see cause and effect of the former: sees ‘silly imaginary stories’ we see as powerful language to experience powerful unseen forces driving limitless miraculous changes in the outside world. Unlike, magical thinkers though we do not go so far as to dismiss the meaningfulness either of the physical manifestation of reality.
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Yes the causality obviously goes both ways. And there is no reason to dismiss physical reality. Things are not simple.
 
Good4Nothin said:
No, it is not simpler. And no, we do not know that altering neural activity can cause complex mystical experiences.

If you come from the perspective of dogmatic materialism, then of course it seems simpler to explain away every non-material experience as being somehow created by the brain.

How the brain could possibly create these experiences is entirely unknown. Still your wild guesses turn out to be the simplest explanations.

This is a typical misuse of Occam's Razor, materialists do this all the time.
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It's an apt use. Do not make unnecessary assumptions. We know humans have a brain. We know the brain is biochemical in nature. We know drugs disrupt this biochemistry. We know that all of our senses and emotions can be traced to chemical compounds in our brains altering the firing pattern of our neurons. Therefore the logical assumption is that the drugs are causing the visions. When you postulate intervention from an undetectable outside force, you are unnecessarily multiplying your assumptions exponentially and thus violating Occam's Razor.
 
zyzygy said:
Prove that the unseen is there.
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You feel. I can't see heat waves normally, but I can feel them and know they are there.

Since having to permanently move to our house in the woods, I opened the property to any and all peaceful spirits of cats who may not have had the comforts, warmth, and love mine enjoy. Since doing that we both have felt cats walking on the bed when there were none to be seen. They curl up, lay down, and then the weight dissipates a little later. Only love lives here and that love welcomes any cats who never knew it in life. They are welcome. They come, and we see the unseen almost daily.
 
PleasantValley said:
You feel. I can't see heat waves normally, but I can feel them and know they are there.

Since having to permanently move to our house in the woods, I opened the property to any and all peaceful spirits of cats who may not have had the comforts, warmth, and love mine enjoy. Since doing that we both have felt cats walking on the bed when there were none to be seen. They curl up, lay down, and then the weight dissipates a little later. Only love lives here and that love welcomes any cats who never knew it in life. They are welcome. They come, and we see the unseen almost daily.
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I will take that with a large pinch of salt. When you say opened the property do you mean that you put up a sign for the spirit cats?
 
zyzygy said:
I will take that with a large pinch of salt. When you say opened the property do you mean that you put up a sign for the spirit cats?
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I will take your post with a pinch of pepper.
Your belief is not a requirement for the love their spirits receive.
Your belief is not a requirement for the love I receive from them.
I did not make the post looking for your approval.

I made it to let others know things do not have to be seen to exist.
Someone's disbelief has no bearing on their existence either.
They exist.

I have not seen the wind, but have seen and felt the effects of the wind.
I have not seen these spirits, but have definitely seen and felt the effects of their spirits.
 
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PleasantValley said:
You feel. I can't see heat waves normally, but I can feel them and know they are there.

Since having to permanently move to our house in the woods, I opened the property to any and all peaceful spirits of cats who may not have had the comforts, warmth, and love mine enjoy. Since doing that we both have felt cats walking on the bed when there were none to be seen. They curl up, lay down, and then the weight dissipates a little later. Only love lives here and that love welcomes any cats who never knew it in life. They are welcome. They come, and we see the unseen almost daily.
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PleasantValley said:
I will take your post with a pinch of pepper.
Your belief is not a requirement for the love their spirits receive.
Your belief is not a requirement for the love I receive from them.
I did not make the post looking for your approval.

I made it to let others know things do not have to be seen to exist.
Someone's disbelief has no bearing on their existence either.
They exist.

I have not seen the wind, but have seen and felt the effects of the wind.
I have not seen these spirits, but have definitely seen and felt the effects of their spirits.
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Beautiful, man.
You're living my dream.
Namaste.
 
Good4Nothin said:
Religion and spirituality are all about things our physical senses don't perceive. They are also about aspects of our own minds that are normally hidden from us (called the unconscious or subconscious in psychology).

Some people are very focused on the perceptions of their physical senses. And some identify only with their conscious minds, and are not introspective.

If you are introspective, and if you sense that most of what goes on is behind the scenes or under the radar, then you might be more likely to be religious or spiritual.

Science and education are also factors. If you have been educated into thinking science and spirituality are opposed (even though they most definitely are NOT opposed), then you might shut down and deny your intuitions about the unseen.
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Seeing the unseen is by definition a hallucination, and it certainly qualifies as delusional.
 
calamity said:
Seeing the unseen is by definition a hallucination, and it certainly qualifies as delusional.
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Then the entire animal kingdom is hallucinating and delusional since what is seen by one animal may be unseen by another, and vice versa.
 
Angel said:
Then the entire animal kingdom is hallucinating and delusional since what is seen by one animal may be unseen by another, and vice versa.
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Right. These people want everyone to live in their ugly little world.
 
Angel said:
Then the entire animal kingdom is hallucinating and delusional since what is seen by one animal may be unseen by another, and vice versa.
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Are you saying Good4 is not human?
 
calamity said:
Are you saying Good4 is not human?
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Different animals perceive different things. Different types of humans perceive different things.

You think anyone who perceives something you don't must be crazy. But maybe it's you.
 
PleasantValley said:
I will take your post with a pinch of pepper.
Your belief is not a requirement for the love their spirits receive.
Your belief is not a requirement for the love I receive from them.
I did not make the post looking for your approval.

I made it to let others know things do not have to be seen to exist.
Someone's disbelief has no bearing on their existence either.
They exist.

I have not seen the wind, but have seen and felt the effects of the wind.
I have not seen these spirits, but have definitely seen and felt the effects of their spirits.
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Delusions, hallucinations.
 
Good4Nothin said:
Right. These people want everyone to live in their ugly little world.
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My world is wonderful, full of wonderful family, friends, music, books and other highlights. I don't need fantasies to make me happy. I have a great time without spirit cats.
 
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Why would a person need to believe in gods, spirits (animal or otherwise), a conscious universe, supernatural beings etc. in order to live a happy and fulfilling life?
 
Good4Nothin said:
Right. These people want everyone to live in their ugly little world.
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The frustration is understandable but unnecessary.

You hear words like “undetectable” said without consideration. Not seeing the inherit semantic game. It's like “prove the supernatural” - Q: what is the supernatural? - R: you tell me. R: I can tell you think it means unexplainable - so your question is essentially “explain the unexplainable?”. An impossible task by definition not by measure.

The miraculous, God, supernatural, undetected unified field it's not unexplainable. Its simply “super” (beyond) natural.

Take a coin toss. Statistically 50/50. Run 10,000,000 simulations and you expect 50/50 confirmation but that’s only true 99.99% of the time. That other .01% in context of complex interactions of the everyday (or really whenever there is time) the “miraculous” and you better believe we influence it all the time. Detectable maybe not, but certainly observable via the indirect.

Of course, many forms of atheism arn’t that concern with proof. No you look at the common factors, whether society or individual, the common denominator seems to remain psychological: issues(emotional triggers) with authority same as the degree of spiritual/relgious and our issues with identity. Perhaps all some resentment of any suggestion emotionary considerations might have very real consequences even toward objects or outcome. A refusal to see religion deals with "context" fo things well science the "content". May we all find peace.

Alas, I suppose we are to be quiet with our "spirit cats" around the skeptical. "Their" world is a happy one, you know. And perhaps they are right, I know I have seen the fruits of this fortunate lens is all I am saying. :2razz:
 
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zyzygy said:
My world is wonderful, full of wonderful family, friends, music; books and other highlights. I don't need fantasies to make me happy. I have a great time without spirit cats.
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The materialist-atheist world is a soulless meaningless accident in a soulless meaningless universe, and to view it as anything more is the Ultimate Fantasy.
 
Good4Nothin said:
Different animals perceive different things. Different types of humans perceive different things.

You think anyone who perceives something you don't must be crazy. But maybe it's you.
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If you see something other humans do not, it's on you.
 
Angel said:
The materialist-atheist world is a soulless meaningless accident in a soulless meaningless universe, and to view it as anything more is the Ultimate Fantasy.
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So don't visit my universe. I'm certainly not going to visit yours, you can have it.
 
See What I mean about believers coming here ? Why ?

All the forum gets is somebody's idea of what's important and...it ain't believing.

Now I get it is their faith that must send them on a duty to 'save' me and you. But from what ?

So once again, this time non-believers are delusional, not those who really have delusions about god and faith.
 
zyzygy said:
The “Shiva” God Helmet ® is a cutting-edge mind technology endorsed by Dr. Michael A. Persinger, whose laboratory God Helmet has been seen on dozens of television documentaries. It has elicited a wide range of spiritual experiences, visions, out-of-body experiences, paranormal perceptions. and even visions of God. It can be seen in many online videos. The Shiva God Helmet was used in the television program Paranormal Lockdown, which aired on Dec.11, 2018.

The God Helmet uses magnetic signals to gently stimulate the brain, eliciting spiritual sensations, moods, and experiences.

https://www.god-helmet.com/wp/god-helmet/index.htm


I asked Dr. Persinger how many people had seen God using the Koren Helmet, and this is what he said in reply:

"The problem is producing an environment in which people will report what they experience without anticipating ridicule on the one hand and not encouraging this type of report (demand characteristics) on the other.

Thus far, about 20 or so people have reported feeling the presence of Christ or even seeing him in the chamber (The acoustic chamber where the experimental sessions took place). Most of these people used Christ and God interchangeably. Most of these individuals were older (30 years or more) and religious (Roman Catholic). One male, age about 35 years old (alleged atheist but early childhood RC (Roman Catholic) training), saw a clear apparition (shoulders and head) of Christ staring him in the face. He was quite "shaken" by the experience. I did not complete a follow-up re: his change in behavior. Of course these are all reports. What we did find with one world-class psychic who experiences Christ as a component of his abilities was we could experimentally increase or decrease his numbers of his reported experiences by applying the LTP pattern (derived from the hippocampus) over the right hemisphere (without his awareness).

The field on-response delay was about 10 to 20 sec. The optimal pattern, at least for this person, looked very right hippocampal. By far most presences are attributed to dead relatives, the Great Forces, a spirit, or something equivalent.

The attribution towards along a devil to angel continuum appears strongly related to the affect (pleasant-terror) associated with the experience. I suspect most people would call the "vague, all-around-me" sensations "God" but they are reluctant to employ the label in a laboratory. The implicit is obvious. If the equipment and the experiment produced the presence that was God, then the extrapersonal, unreachable and independent characteristics of the god definition might be challenged."

That's the important thing about the God Helmet. Even if only a few people saw God because of it, it creates a host of new questions - questions theology has never had to face before.
The God Helmet - How it works.
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Well I am sure [it] was a great profit center.
 
Good4Nothin said:
So you actually think everything claimed by every researcher must be true? Replication doesn't matter? Every experiment tests exactly what the researcher thinks it tests? Experiments never have any defects?

There are many thousands of parapsychology experiments with positive results, but you won't accept any of them because they don't agree with materialism.

You select the evidence that you think supports materialism. You believe the researchers you agree with already, and ignore or deny the ones you don't agree with.
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Well that's clearly what you...want to believe,
 
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