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[W:1303]***To Believe or Not To Believe

Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

To believe, or not to believe, that is the question:


Not. Pretty simple. Btw, your posts are quite useful to people who aren't sure how to use html commands.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

If a theist accepts a generic God, does he not reject his/her more explicit God? If the details conflict, there is no resolution - they contradict.
You're talking about me here. There is no tension between reasoning to the philosophical generic God on the one hand and faith in the nature of God as delivered by a religion. No contradiction or conflict is possible.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

You are the genuine article as an atheist and I respect that. I don't respect the equivocating atheist who relies on the ambiguity of "I lack belief" in order to avoid committing to "I don't believe."
"Being without" leaves the atheist WIGGLE ROOM.
I promise you that I'm trying but respectfully, I can't see why you are stuck on this. They mean the same thing. You are phrasing all of those things as "I lack this good X" followed by "I am bad X". I think your last example of "interested" is the best and least biased if you are ok with that one.

What is the difference if I tell someone I lack interest in a topic and if I tell them I am not interested in a topic? I see no real world actual difference. You say it leaves "wiggle room" but I don't see how. In what way can I wiggle out if I say "I lack belief in god" that I would not have if I'd said "I don't believe in god"? If someone was just scared to say they didn't believe I would think they'd say "I don't know if I believe" or "I'm not sure", which is still a perfectly valid stance as far as I can see.

Whats the wiggle room? What do you think I'm trying to wiggle out of if Id said "I lack belief"?
New Atheiest Wiggle Room

I'm glad you asked. In all those analogous cases, the person relying on the passive-agressive expression could always say if challenged:
"I didn't say I'm a coward; I said I lacked courage,"

[other examples omitted to meet post-length limit]

And so on.
Plausible deniability.
Wiggle Room.

The "I Lack Belief" Atheist can always say, and does always say, "I'm not the one making the belief claim; I just lack belief."

The equivocating atheist admits only to "being without" someone else's belief. The equivocating atheist refuses to commit to his own belief (that God does not exist) or his own disbelief (that God exists).

This strategy also allows him (he thinks) to claim that since infants are born "without belief," therefore infants are born atheists, and therefore atheism is the "default position" on the God Question.

It's all equivocation and bad faith.



I can assure you that for myself and the atheists I know it has nothing to do with bad faith and everything to do with not wanting to make claims that we can't back up. For me it's very simple. I can't defend the position that there is no god, therefor I don't claim it. I would think someone as astute as yourself on these issues would agree wholeheartedly with me that if I can't defend a position I shouldn't hold it correct?

If a person said "I lack belief" and then denied that "I don't believe" then he'd be incorrect by definition. Can you quote someone here that has said he lacks belief in god but backs down form saying "I don't believe in god"?

I think you are stepping around the issue a great deal. What you really are upset about, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that atheists won't come out and say "I believe there is no god" rather than "I don't believe in a god". Do I have that right? And id so, why do you think atheists should make a claim like "I believe there is no god" if that's not what they believe?

Thanks for your response.

Edit: I put "good" faith instead of "bad" faith on accident. Apologies.
Is "lacking a belief" in every way the same as "disbelieving"?

That is our question.

Let's pick a belief. Any belief. That money doesn't grow on trees. That's a belief.

If you "lack" that belief, then you are without the belief that money doesn't grow on trees.

But if you disbelieve that money doesn't grow on trees, then you believe that money grows on trees.

To "lack a belief" that money doesn't grow on trees and to "disbelieve" that money doesn't grow on trees are not the same.


But, you say, what if the belief in question is rather that money grows on trees?

Then if you "lack that belief," then you are without the belief that money grows on trees.

But if you "disbelieve" that money grows on trees, then you believe that money doesn't grow on trees.

To "lack a belief" that money grows on trees and to "disbelieve" that money grows on trees are not the same.


You can see from the analysis the muddle that results from equivocating with the ambiguous expression "lacking belief" instead of declaring forthrightly "I disbelieve."
"Lacking belief" avoids belief commitment; "disbelieving" embraces belief commitment.
Being without a belief is not the same as disbelieving.

I have no quarrel with atheism. I respect and even admire honest plain-spoken atheism.
My quarrel is with New Atheism, Dawkins Atheism, Parodic Atheism, Atheism in Name Only -- the equivocating cowardly confused "I Lack Belief" Atheism.
 
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Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Whoaaaaaa.... wait up... then which model is the correct one?
You are aware there are different branches of science? And they require different approaches. You can’t have one model that works for astronomy, economics, chemistry, cultural anthropology, microbiology, etc.


I think here you are trying to come up with a theory [explanatory argument]??


Not answer, but a possible falsification of the theory from above.
No, an answer. You can’t start with an explanation, you have to start with something to explain: a question. Usually it will be “Why does X occur?” Or “what would be the result if X were to occur?” Or “what is the relationship between X and Y?”
Then, based on reasoning, logic, and pre-existing theories, you form a hypothesis: a suspected answer to your question.


Not by making predictions, but by attempting to find conflicting evidence.
Yes by making predictions. If you can conduct an experiment, you do, and you predict what will happen if your hypothesis is correct. You also form a null hypothesis; the conditions under which your hypothesis would be wrong. If your science is only observational, you make predictions on what you expect to find or see happpen.

True (knowing that you mean theory instead of hypothesis), which is why supporting evidence isn't used in science.
I meant hypothesis and supporting evidence is used. Your hypothesis is that Y will happen as a result of X. You test it by introducing X, and then Y occurs. You can reject the null hypothesis.

Here’s the important part: While the success of the experiment supports the idea that X causes Y, it doesn’t prove it. There could be some factor or relationship we missed or haven’t thought of. But after continuing testing, isolating as many variables as possible, we can say that the evidence supports our hypothesis. Then we can form a fuller explanation as a theory, often combining different hypotheses.

Here, you are blending science and religion. You would be able to, under this "method" of science, "hypothesize" that Christianity is both supported AND rejected by science
How? I’m really not sure what you’re trying to say. Religion plays no part in the method, and I fon’t Know how you’re reaching a paradox. Please give an example or walk-through.


Science doesn't "predict"... It attempts to falsify theories [explanatory arguments].
Of course it makes predictions. And if the predictions fail, we know our ideas were wrong. That’s what falsification means: A thing that can occur(or fail to occur) that shows the hypothesis or theory wrong.


Define "strong support"... Right now it is a buzzword... You already had the theory from the start; here, you were trying to falsify your theory, and if it didn't get falsified, then it became a theory of science (and remained one so long as it continued surviving null hypothesis testing)
strong support is passing rigorous tests and making correct predictions and showing explanatory power.


Not how laws are formed. Laws DO come from theories. A law is simply a formalized theory. That formalization is usually by way of mathematics.
No, a law is an expressed relationship, not a theory. Newton’s 2nd Law of Motion: F = ma That’s not an explanation of anything and doesn’t tell us the “Why,”


Science starts with a theory.
No, science starts with a question. How can you have an explanation for something not asked about?
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Is "lacking a belief" in every way the same as "disbelieving"?

That is our question.

Let's pick a belief. Any belief. That money doesn't grow on trees. That's a belief.

If you "lack" that belief, then you are without the belief that money doesn't grow on trees.

But if you disbelieve that money doesn't grow on trees, then you believe that money grows on trees.

To "lack a belief" that money doesn't grow on trees and to "disbelieve" that money doesn't grow on trees are not the same.


But, you say, what if the belief in question is rather that money grows on trees?

Then if you "lack that belief," then you are without the belief that money grows on trees.

But if you "disbelieve" that money grows on trees, then you believe that money doesn't grow on trees.

To "lack a belief" that money grows on trees and to "disbelieve" that money grows on trees are not the same.


You can see from the analysis the muddle that results from equivocating with the ambiguous expression "lacking belief" instead of declaring forthrightly "I disbelieve."
"Lacking belief" avoids belief commitment; "disbelieving" embraces belief commitment.
Being without a belief is not the same as disbelieving.

I have no quarrel with atheism. I respect and even admire honest plain-spoken atheism.
My quarrel is with New Atheism, Dawkins Atheism, Parodic Atheism, Atheism in Name Only -- the equivocating cowardly confused "I Lack Belief" Atheism.

Do you have a quote from Dawkins where he makes this "I lack belief" statement that you find so objectionable?
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Do you have a quote from Dawkins where he makes this "I lack belief" statement that you find so objectionable?
This is an argument proposed by philosopher Anthony Flew 50 years ago and taken up by New Atheism in the last fifteen years, ubiquitous on the internet, and in this forum. Dawkins hasn't originated anything new; he's just aroused the bully and blowhard in atheist wannabes.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

This is an argument proposed by philosopher Anthony Flew 50 years ago and taken up by New Atheism in the last fifteen years, ubiquitous on the internet, and in this forum. Dawkins hasn't originated anything new; he's just aroused the bully and blowhard in atheist wannabes.

I'm aware of Flew, but I never thought that idea more than a nuance. A minor difference that didn't really seem to me to have a significant distinction.

But I can't understand why folks who simply don't believe "the creed" are ridiculed by those who do as heretics.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

I'm aware of Flew, but I never thought that idea more than a nuance. A minor difference that didn't really seem to me to have a significant distinction.

But I can't understand why folks who simply don't believe "the creed" are ridiculed by those who do as heretics.

Insecurity.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

How did you educate yourself? Merely by thinking? I hope you didn't refer at all to outside sources, like your education.

Well we know he didn't learn anything from reading any University level textbooks or published literature from academic Journals because he rejects those and calls them "Holy links!"
 
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Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

The God of the Bible was only as moral as the epoch in which he/it was conceptualized?



OM

Yes. And it also appears that the "God of the Bible" was as knowledgeable as the men of the culture/times in which he/it was conceptualized. For example, the writers of the book of Genesis believed their world was flat and was floating on water with a dome over it with windows to heaven, so that's what their "God" created.

Ancient-Hebrew-view-of-universe.jpg
 
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Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

...
But I can't understand why folks who simply don't believe "the creed" are ridiculed by those who do as heretics.
Are you still talking about atheism here? I don't follow the pronominal distinction between "folks who" and "those who"? Are atheists critical of atheists over doctrine?
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

This is an argument proposed by philosopher Anthony Flew 50 years ago and taken up by New Atheism in the last fifteen years, ubiquitous on the internet, and in this forum. Dawkins hasn't originated anything new; he's just aroused the bully and blowhard in atheist wannabes.

It isn't an argument. It's a description of what atheism actually is, and not what you want it to be.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

It isn't an argument. It's a description of what atheism actually is, and not what you want it to be.
No, it is an argument, made by the philosopher Anthony Flew in 1972, long before he recanted his atheism in time to die. It is a not very good argument that atheist wannabes embrace in their self-description. But it makes atheists of baboons, and baboons of atheists, as I pointed out.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

No, it is an argument, made by the philosopher Anthony Flew in 1972, long before he recanted his atheism in time to die. It is a not very good argument that atheist wannabes embrace in their self-description. But it makes atheists of baboons, and baboons of atheists, as I pointed out.

Why didn't he wait until after death to "recant" his atheism? It also makes theists of baboons, as your "argument" assumes that baboons are capable of belief.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Are you still talking about atheism here? I don't follow the pronominal distinction between "folks who" and "those who"? Are atheists critical of atheists over doctrine?

There is no atheist doctrine just as there is no theist doctrine.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

...
But I can't understand why folks who simply don't believe "the creed" are ridiculed by those who do as heretics.
Are you still talking about atheism here? I don't follow the pronominal distinction between "folks who" and "those who"? Are atheists critical of atheists over doctrine?
There is no atheist doctrine just as there is no theist doctrine.
First, please note that mine was a question.
Second, since you presume to answer for <alt>doxygen, perhaps you will go on and explain his pronominal references for us as well.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Why didn't he wait until after death to "recant" his atheism? It also makes theists of baboons, as your "argument" assumes that baboons are capable of belief.
On your "question," only Anthony Flew can answer it and he's dead.
As to your silly comeback, you miss the point: the point is that your "Lack belief" shibboleth invites the baboon counter-example. There is no such equivocation on the part of theists, and so no connection to the baboon.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

On your "question," only Anthony Flew can answer it and he's dead.
As to your silly comeback, you miss the point: the point is that your "Lack belief" shibboleth invites the baboon counter-example. There is no such equivocation on the part of theists, and so no connection to the baboon.

So you are arguing that baboons are capable of belief?
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

So you are arguing that baboons are capable of belief?

Baboons beat their own chests and fling a lot of their own crap around, like some humans figuratively do.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

So you are arguing that baboons are capable of belief?
Are you just pretending to be thick or what? I'm arguing that the lack of belief argument applies to baboons.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Is "lacking a belief" in every way the same as "disbelieving"?

That is our question.

Let's pick a belief. Any belief. That money doesn't grow on trees. That's a belief.

If you "lack" that belief, then you are without the belief that money doesn't grow on trees.

But if you disbelieve that money doesn't grow on trees, then you believe that money grows on trees
.

To "lack a belief" that money doesn't grow on trees and to "disbelieve" that money doesn't grow on trees are not the same.


But, you say, what if the belief in question is rather that money grows on trees?

Then if you "lack that belief," then you are without the belief that money grows on trees.

But if you "disbelieve" that money grows on trees, then you believe that money doesn't grow on trees.

To "lack a belief" that money grows on trees and to "disbelieve" that money grows on trees are not the same.


You can see from the analysis the muddle that results from equivocating with the ambiguous expression "lacking belief" instead of declaring forthrightly "I disbelieve."
"Lacking belief" avoids belief commitment; "disbelieving" embraces belief commitment.
Being without a belief is not the same as disbelieving.

I have no quarrel with atheism. I respect and even admire honest plain-spoken atheism.
My quarrel is with New Atheism, Dawkins Atheism, Parodic Atheism, Atheism in Name Only -- the equivocating cowardly confused "I Lack Belief" Atheism.

Lacking belief and disbelieving are the same thing. And either one does not mean that you have to believe the opposite claim. I can disbelieve that money doesn't grow on trees but also not believe that money does grow on trees. Maybe I just don't know so I don't believe either until I have evidence of such.

You are going to great lengths to show some kind of difference when there is none.

If you're only complaint about atheism is that they don't articulate their beliefs the way you want them to then I guess we don't have anymore to discuss. Its not a subject that really interests me, but thank you for the discussion.
 
Re: To Believe or Not To Believe

Yes. And it also appears that the "God of the Bible" was as knowledgeable as the men of the culture/times in which he/it was conceptualized. For example, the writers of the book of Genesis believed their world was flat and was floating on water with a dome over it with windows to heaven, so that's what their "God" created.

View attachment 67247881

Interesting how it was thought that rain and snow came from water that was beyond the sun and moon.


OM
 
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