• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Reasons to accept being completely non-religious

Dragonfly said:
Best reason, from my perspective, is that it just makes the most sense.
There's no hypocrisy, no condemnation, and no corruption.

It's just so "natural".
Autonomy.


For those of you who are non-religious, how did you end up there?
Are you happy? (<-- I know, duh right? But many religious folks seem to insist the non-religious people are bitter, and unhappy)

Would you say you're still "spiritual"? How so?
Click to expand...

I am a bit confused, is this the metaphorical "accept", in that society should accept people who choose to not be religious or is this the personal acceptance of someone who is non-religious?

Now as for how I ended up here is simple, I am a, at least, third generation atheist. My grandmother and grandfather were atheists, my mother was an atheist and I am an atheist. That is how I ended up there, it was in the way I was raised. Now if I would have wanted to go into a religion they would have respected it but not liked it.

I also went to a non-religious public school. Then went to a further school that was in name protestant but was more liberal and was the home of most Jewish kids, Jehova's witnesses kids, non-religious kids, liberal catholics (the only other catholic schools in the area was one where the Nuns had the running of the school) and all denominations of protestants. In the 4 years I went to that school I had the bible in my hand all of one time. At Christmas we were supposed to make a passport for Joseph on his travel to Bethlehem.

The school once had the unwise idea to invite a more religious protestant theater group to come and do a performance about how they saw their religion. It did not end well LOL. During the ask session at the end of their "performance" we were invited to ask questions and one youth (a friend of mine, also not religious even though he was brought up like that) was asked "If god is all powerful and as mighty as you described, then why are there wars, why are the kids dying in Africa (this was live aid time during the hunger crises in Africa) and he started to waffle and when he could not answer that question, he asked the boy who asked the question if he believed in god, the boy said "No". The guy from the theater group then said that because he was not religious, he was not allowed to ask him that question.

Then all hell broke loose because the rest of the class started asking the same questions and some of them were religious so he stormed off and the afternoon with the Theater company was cut short due to one angry person who did not want to answer the simplest answer he could give "I do not know the answer to that" and people would have commended him on his honesty. Now he just looked like a total loser.

So to come back to your questions, it was my education and family at home who were atheist, I went to schools that furthered that because they were non-religious and afterwards I have also not had the need or the desire to go into a religion.
 
stevecanuck said:
It's better to be a good person out of real, inate empathy for your fellow human beings than because you think it will curry favour with an imaginary sky guy. The former is true goodness, the latter mere self-serving bet-hedging.
Click to expand...

If that's what you think, then you don't understand what it truly means to be a Christian...love of God and love of fellow man...desiring what's best for everyone, not just yourself...

"Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous. It does not brag, does not get puffed up, does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8
 
Elvira said:
If that's what you think, then you don't understand what it truly means to be a Christian...love of God and love of fellow man...desiring what's best for everyone, not just yourself...

"Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous. It does not brag, does not get puffed up, does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8
Click to expand...

Why are you posting in this thread?

Do you consider yourself non-religious?
 
Conaeolos said:
Since having a daughter though it has become more complicated. I am terrified of what she is missing out of in terms of tradition and community.
Click to expand...

Terrified???

What???

You have bestowed upon her free will. She can make whatever choices she wants with her beliefs unburdened by her upbringing.

I have absolutely no clue what you could be "terrified" about.
 
Peter King said:
I am a bit confused, is this the metaphorical "accept", in that society should accept people who choose to not be religious or is this the personal acceptance of someone who is non-religious?

Now as for how I ended up here is simple, I am a, at least, third generation atheist. My grandmother and grandfather were atheists, my mother was an atheist and I am an atheist. That is how I ended up there, it was in the way I was raised. Now if I would have wanted to go into a religion they would have respected it but not liked it.

I also went to a non-religious public school. Then went to a further school that was in name protestant but was more liberal and was the home of most Jewish kids, Jehova's witnesses kids, non-religious kids, liberal catholics (the only other catholic schools in the area was one where the Nuns had the running of the school) and all denominations of protestants. In the 4 years I went to that school I had the bible in my hand all of one time. At Christmas we were supposed to make a passport for Joseph on his travel to Bethlehem.

The school once had the unwise idea to invite a more religious protestant theater group to come and do a performance about how they saw their religion. It did not end well LOL. During the ask session at the end of their "performance" we were invited to ask questions and one youth (a friend of mine, also not religious even though he was brought up like that) was asked "If god is all powerful and as mighty as you described, then why are there wars, why are the kids dying in Africa (this was live aid time during the hunger crises in Africa) and he started to waffle and when he could not answer that question, he asked the boy who asked the question if he believed in god, the boy said "No". The guy from the theater group then said that because he was not religious, he was not allowed to ask him that question.

Then all hell broke loose because the rest of the class started asking the same questions and some of them were religious so he stormed off and the afternoon with the Theater company was cut short due to one angry person who did not want to answer the simplest answer he could give "I do not know the answer to that" and people would have commended him on his honesty. Now he just looked like a total loser.

So to come back to your questions, it was my education and family at home who were atheist, I went to schools that furthered that because they were non-religious and afterwards I have also not had the need or the desire to go into a religion.
Click to expand...

Personal acceptance.

We're obviously a very long way away from societal acceptance.
 
Dragonfly said:
Personal acceptance.

We're obviously a very long way away from societal acceptance.
Click to expand...

For me personal acceptance was easy, I did not know any different and have never been "attracted" into a religion because I never felt a need to start believing in something I did not believe in.
 
Dragonfly said:
Best reason, from my perspective, is that it just makes the most sense.
There's no hypocrisy, no condemnation, and no corruption.

It's just so "natural".
Autonomy.


For those of you who are non-religious, how did you end up there?
Are you happy? (<-- I know, duh right? But many religious folks seem to insist the non-religious people are bitter, and unhappy)

Would you say you're still "spiritual"? How so?
Click to expand...

How do you classify a person who has all the following qualities?

  • Volunteers at church, but eschews the services, save for other people's weddings, funerals, christenings, etc.
  • Believes there is a god of some sort, but refuses to defend theism on account of anything other than faith.
  • Sees merit in and ascribes to Jesus', Mohammed's and various other theologians' sociological teachings.
  • Sees merit in and ascribes to sociological guidance offered by various polytheistic and non-theistic belief systems.
  • Is indifferent about whether theology or atheology is existentially correct.
 
Xelor said:
How do you classify a person who has all the following qualities?

  • Volunteers at church, but eschews the services, save for other people's weddings, funerals, christenings, etc.
  • Believes there is a god of some sort, but refuses to defend theism on account of anything other than faith.
  • Sees merit in and ascribes to Jesus', Mohammed's and various other theologians' sociological teachings.
  • Sees merit in and ascribes to sociological guidance offered by various polytheistic and non-theistic belief systems.
  • Is indifferent about whether theology or atheology is existentially correct.
Click to expand...

A multi theist with atheological tendencies?
 
Xelor said:
I suppose...do you think it meets the criteria of either "non-religious" or "religious?"

Seems "religious" to me.
Click to expand...

well, there is a notion of lack of belief in gods but a belief in the message the prophets of those religions added to the social structure of the world.
 
Peter King said:
well, there is a notion of lack of belief in gods but a belief in the message the prophets of those religions added to the social structure of the world.
Click to expand...

Would you say "spiritual" but not "religious"?
 
Dragonfly said:
You have bestowed upon her free will. She can make whatever choices she wants with her beliefs unburdened by her upbringing.

I have absolutely no clue what you could be "terrified" about.
Click to expand...
A lack of faith community and traditions associated around building morality and purposefulness through discussion, shared stories, alternate role models and activity. I am not as terrified as I like to joke, but it certainly worries me to some degree she will not have that wonderful church community supporting her as I had growing up.

Sure, she will get to learn more consistent principles, exposed to less nonsense and have more freedom. There is no doubt there are emotional traps in religious communities that can ensnare a child. I am sure too she will have many other postive communities in things like dance and horse riding like her mom. I hope my own example, planned spiritual pilgrimages (to places of beauty and reflection) and small home traditions are enough.

You had another thread asking about modern day biblical scale miracles. I had none I could point to in a newspaper or argue beyond any doubt of alternative explanation but my own life is full of such faith based miracles: from healing to transformation of tin to gold to the little every day mysteries. This miraculousness is certainly not exclusive to any dogma or group. I can not demonstrate it or teach it. All I have is what I witnessed and I am from that confident it is available to her, religion or no religion, belief in god or no belief in god; but, so too are my observations of so many who feel none of that.

Living everyday with “the miraculous” simply a term for ordinary psychology phenomena, coincidence, luck and chance - it creates enough of a worry to question my own stubbornness. To challange my resistances in finding a community like who so helped me in dark times. Who guidance and support challenged me to trust my heart in my formative years. Who held me accountable to my character. Who showed me power of community, repentence and prayer.

That said, maybe being simply skeptical is a better fate than a life of superstitions? For to not experience awe but think one should, sounds far worse. To see a God but one of judgement and scorn does not seem worth the risk.

This father wishes so much for his daughter to just have the greatest possibly to experience the purest joy. To have faith in the magical even when all seems lost. To glimpse even for a moment life as perfection instead of with judgements like how at least I see so often this world.Alas it is to be a parent as you say to trust her that she may find her own faith and beliefs in her own time and way.

In the end, I do still find it hard to be a non-religious spiritual parent but at the same time I do choose it for now. Worries and all.
 
Conaeolos said:
A lack of faith community and traditions associated around building morality and purposefulness through discussion, shared stories, alternate role models and activity. I am not as terrified as I like to joke, but it certainly worries me to some degree she will not have that wonderful church community supporting her as I had growing up.

Sure, she will get to learn more consistent principles, exposed to less nonsense and have more freedom. There is no doubt there are emotional traps in religious communities that can ensnare a child. I am sure too she will have many other postive communities in things like dance and horse riding like her mom. I hope my own example, planned spiritual pilgrimages (to places of beauty and reflection) and small home traditions are enough.

You had another thread asking about modern day biblical scale miracles. I had none I could point to in a newspaper or argue beyond any doubt of alternative explanation but my own life is full of such faith based miracles: from healing to transformation of tin to gold to the little every day mysteries. This miraculousness is certainly not exclusive to any dogma or group. I can not demonstrate it or teach it. All I have is what I witnessed and I am from that confident it is available to her, religion or no religion, belief in god or no belief in god; but, so too are my observations of so many who feel none of that.

Living everyday with “the miraculous” simply a term for ordinary psychology phenomena, coincidence, luck and chance - it creates enough of a worry to question my own stubbornness. To challange my resistances in finding a community like who so helped me in dark times. Who guidance and support challenged me to trust my heart in my formative years. Who held me accountable to my character. Who showed me power of community, repentence and prayer.

That said, maybe being simply skeptical is a better fate than a life of superstitions? For to not experience awe but think one should, sounds far worse. To see a God but one of judgement and scorn does not seem worth the risk.

This father wishes so much for his daughter to just have the greatest possibly to experience the purest joy. To have faith in the magical even when all seems lost. To glimpse even for a moment life as perfection instead of with judgements like how at least I see so often this world.Alas it is to be a parent as you say to trust her that she may find her own faith and beliefs in her own time and way.

In the end, I do still find it hard to be a non-religious spiritual parent but at the same time I do choose it for now. Worries and all.
Click to expand...

As you have noted, there are many many layers of community, support, and "faith" that come from all walks of life.
A "church" or "religion" can offer those things, but so do plenty of other places.

The most important place is the home. Sounds like you got that covered.

You care to touch on the "tin to gold" thing at all?
 
Dragonfly said:
You care to touch on the "tin to gold" thing at all?
Click to expand...
Sure, when I was about 17 I had a cheap religious pendant which was made either steel or tin. One day it started getting a strange film over it, over about a week it transformed to 24k gold[chain and all]. The transformation process was observed by other people I showed at the time although we had no idea what was happening until it was complete and started to shine[had a dark coating on it one had to wipe off]. It significance to me was simply as an unexpected sign of hope during a hard time in my life. A rather trivial miracle but another vivid strong memory of awe which I am certainly reminded of when questioning if the mystery in the universe is worthy of calling supernatural.

From a skeptical point of view it could just be a false memory. I did not take photos or anything, nor investigated\questioned it much, again at the time it just seemed more strange than miraculous.

Many have suggested such stories on my part reflect an unexamined faith rather than an accurate reflection of events. I disagree based on context, for I fully acknowledge such as story is subjective and know full well the probability of false memory ~5% is higher than the miraculous <0.01%. If we want to talk objective reality - I am happy to change my account to meet the needs of that conversation.

My choice to call it miraculous by my own account is not to dismiss my love of objective truth or disregard the merits of skeptical rational inquiry. It comes from my own reflections upon how the lens by which we see the world effect our ability to observe Truth. It comes from a lifetime of experiences which frame it.

You see, for the miraculous to become observable in the skeptical sense it must act like magic not 'supernatural' intervention. That's not really a fair standard. The theory of the miraculous as invention of 'heavenly' forces is to assume some things: world is perfect by design[does not require intervention to work], favour is not a factor*[shine to all people regardless of faith] and such interventions don't break the design[does not cause an observer to lose touch with reality].

The problem with all this is obvious. That sets up contrasting lens unlike magic which could be simply be tested against science. For in skeptical terms such miraculous events will be as critics say existing in the gaps, the unknowns, which of course are acceptable without need to ackowleage the supernatural.

The only question for me then is it beneficial to take a materialist or miraculous lens when it applies to my subjective everyday life. That is comparable and I see no benefit in adopting a materialist viewpoint outside specific investigations, predictions or evalutions.

To me the most relevant factor in life is our "predominant emotional energy" which more than any outside force determines an experience. For example, if you are rear-ended in a parking lot - what is your response? Anger? Compassion? Worry? Even in science, one can see the stronger and more negative those subconcious emotions the more likely one is to make a false observations or conclutions.

The materialist lens tends toward 'pride' which is extremely unhelpful outside escaping hellish emotions. The miraculous lens on the other-hand is infinitely transformative even in giving one the patience and objectivty necessary to make sound skeptical judgements.To date, the only major negative side effect noted seems to an innocence which might be viewed as "a willingness to be dumb". It's like your far too happy to care about trivial facts, gaffs or possible errors in your thinking.
 
Conaeolos said:
Sure, when I was about 17 I had a cheap religious pendant which was made either steel or tin. One day it started getting a strange film over it, over about a week it transformed to 24k gold[chain and all].
Click to expand...

Surely you can see where just about everyone you'll tell this to will be highly skeptical.

The rest of your post obviously suggests you do.

I guess my next question would be, how did you end up being so non-religious if you felt that what you did see once was some level of "miracle"?
 
Dragonfly said:
Surely you can see where just about everyone you'll tell this to will be highly skeptical.
Click to expand...
Yes, like I said in matters like predictions I am going to use the same skeptical lens(most conservative assumptions). So if you told me the similar bold story - I myself would even be highly skeptical. I knew your impression would be that it is untrue before I even wrote it. I think thats a good and important.

It takes very little time in religious or spiritual communities to see how these sorts of testimonies can be used to gain status if taken without skepticism. To imply specialness or spiritual authority. There is a danger in reading in too much meaning.

A moment of awe should be humbling, but if we are not careful it can be the opposite and inflate our self importance.
I guess my next question would be, how did you end up being so non-religious if you felt that what you did see once was some level of "miracle"?
Click to expand...
That is connected to what I am trying to express. To me a chain turning to gold is a trivial matter. It has glamour sure, but hardly more meaningful then being in the right place at the right time or surviving a car accident etc. It shouldn’t matter if I am just mistaken or if was a one off miracle(the effect is the same). I call it miraculous because it is one small part of my everyday experience; indeed a way of experiencing that I or you or anyone can live everyday.

Hypothetically suppose it was just a one off supernatural miracle. How should that change my life? Should I now expect gold every time I am feeling down? Should I assume it confirms every spiritual belief I had at the time? Should it make me stop and join the priesthood?

I am non religious because it is so difficult to find a community of people who understand specialness not doctrinal error is our greatest spiritual challenge.

It is difficult to not think as long as we avoid some known filters we will see a singular picture. The truth though is our world is made up of both outside inputs and processes which give those meaning. Ones degree of accuracy is always subjective(via a filter) and nothing influences the subjective more than emotions. So arguments in the end reflects very little of the picture compared to effects of the underlying emotional processes that allowed them to be observed/experienced.

My suggestion toward a religious point of view then is the testimony that reality with lens with less emotional distortion will always have an abundant supernatural miraculousness in the everyday but which is also subtle enough to easily be filtered out if emotional incongruent. My choice of living non-religiously a consequence of recognizing that as that is a conclusion of subjective experiences, the objective reality that the magic will not be shared with others, means that the meaningfulness is personal rather than having some implication that I am right and you are wrong.
 
Angel said:
You forgot a few: no thought, no imagination, no feeling, no questioning.
Your bar is set very low.
Click to expand...

Again with the insults. Just what world do you live in ? It can't be the same as mine.

I have all of the thought and more than many religious, a great imagination, deep feelings about many things

and do question people's incessant believe in the imaginary.
 
Pedestrian said:
Again with the insults. Just what world do you live in ? It can't be the same as mine.

I have all of the thought and more than many religious, a great imagination, deep feelings about many things

and do question people's incessant believe in the imaginary.
Click to expand...
Question your own beliefs, not that of others. What others believe is their business, to be questioned by them.
 
Angel said:
Question your own beliefs, not that of others. What others believe is their business, to be questioned by them.
Click to expand...

I do not question other's beliefs but will tell them they are wrong about me or anyone being subjected to insults or somehow defective,

for...not sharing them.

All I read from you are insults to non-believers.
 
Pedestrian said:
I do not question other's beliefs but will tell them they are wrong about me or anyone being subjected to insults or somehow defective,

for...not sharing them.

All I read from you are insults to non-believers.
Click to expand...
You stated:
I have all of the thought and more than many religious, a great imagination, deep feelings about many things

and do question people's incessant believe in the imaginary.
Click to expand...

I replied:
Question your own beliefs, not that of others. What others believe is their business, to be questioned by them.
Click to expand...
And you claim not to be questioning the belief of others ("in the imaginary"). You contradict yourself.
 
Pedestrian said:
I do not question other's beliefs but will tell them they are wrong about me or anyone being subjected to insults or somehow defective,

for...not sharing them.

All I read from you are insults to non-believers.
Click to expand...

Stop "reading" him and things will improve.
 
Dragonfly said:
Stop "reading" him and things will improve.
Click to expand...
"Things will improve" by ignoring opposing views. A brilliant rationale, if not exactly rational.
Best of luck in Echo Canyon.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom