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Where has "god" been lately?

Good4Nothin said:
Deism makes no sense. And assuming God is all powerful and all knowing makes no sense. And assuming there is only one God makes no sense.

Thinking God intended this world to be a perfect idyllic environment for our species makes no sense.
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If your critics in the evolution thread could read this, and if they could read this with understanding, perhaps you would be spared some of the presumptuous reactionary replies you've had to endure there.

Good to see you here.
 
Elvira said:
I can give anything I want to support my claim since I was not talking to you...
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You're free to post anything you wish, but we're also free to challenge the things you post.

When you fail to provide any kind of support to your outrageously useless bible quotes your credibility plummets.

Stop posting bible verses as if they're historical fact, and perhaps people won't challenge your posts. Regardless of who they might have been directed at.

Or perhaps stick to the Theology section of DP.

So again, how is it even remotely possible that anyone knows what "god" said on "day 6"?
 
Dragonfly said:
Has “god” done anything in the past 100 years that even remotely equals in scope any of the things “god” has been credited with doing roughly 2000-ish years ago, and/or any time previous to then?


Can you site an instance, a date, a specific occurrence that was almost undeniably "god" making "his/her" presence known?
Again, in the last 100 years?

Now I know I'll get some answers that are in the realm of:

"If you can't see them it's because you're not looking."
"If you're not open to them, you won't find them."

That's very vague.

I'm looking for a specific incident. Something where a history book 2000 years from now will suggest that yes, "god" did indeed have a hand in ____________ happen during the mid-1900's to early 2000's.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY66AYvvmf4
 
Dragonfly said:
How on Earth does anyone know what "god" said on the 6th day?


And no, you can't use a bible verse to support your claim.

Who was there to document god speaking? How was it documented? Who could write then? What would they write on? What would they write with?

Grandiose claims require evidence.

Who would "they" even be?
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Literalist criticism of literalism is self-defeating. It's parody absent self-awareness. You're looking at evidence and asking for evidence for the evidence. Your discourse is all stridency and no substance.
 
Dragonfly said:
You're free to post anything you wish, but we're also free to challenge the things you post.

When you fail to provide any kind of support to your outrageously useless bible quotes your credibility plummets.

Stop posting bible verses as if they're historical fact, and perhaps people won't challenge your posts. Regardless of who they might have been directed at.

Or perhaps stick to the Theology section of DP.

So again, how is it even remotely possible that anyone knows what "god" said on "day 6"?
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You do have an ignore feature, don't you? Use it...
 
Elvira said:
How about the year, 1914, when the 1st World War began?

“If ever there was a year that marked the end of an era and the beginning of another, it was 1914. That year brought to an end the old world with sense of security and began the modern age, characteristic of which is the insecurity that is our daily portion.” --Oxford historian A. L. Rowse

“The shot which was fired on June 28, 1914, in Sarajevo, had shattered the world of security and creative reason...The world has never been the same place since...It was a turning point, and the wonderful, calm, attractive world of yesterday had vanished, never again to appear.”​—Review of the book Winston S. Churchill, Vol. 2, by Randolph Churchill.

“Thoughts and pictures come to my mind...thoughts from before the year 1914 when there was real peace, quiet and security on this earth​—a time when we didn’t know fear...Security and quiet have disappeared from the lives of men since 1914.”​—German statesman Konrad Adenauer, 1965

“The whole world really blew up about World War I and we still don’t know why...Utopia was in sight. There was peace and prosperity. Then everything blew up. We’ve been in a state of suspended animation ever since.”​—Dr. Walker Percy, “American Medical News,” November 21, 1977

“In 1914 the world lost a coherence which it has not managed to recapture since...This has been a time of extraordinary disorder and violence, both across national frontiers and within them.”​—“The Economist,” London, August 4, 1979

“Civilization entered on a cruel and perhaps terminal illness in 1914.”​—Frank Peters, St. Louis “Post-Dispatch,” January 27, 1980

“Everything would get better and better. This was the world I was born in...Suddenly, unexpectedly, one morning in 1914 the whole thing came to an end.”​—British statesman Harold Macmillan, New York “Times,” November 23, 1980
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Are you suggesting that god started WWI ?
 
Dragonfly said:
Has “god” done anything in the past 100 years that even remotely equals in scope any of the things “god” has been credited with doing roughly 2000-ish years ago, and/or any time previous to then?


Can you site an instance, a date, a specific occurrence that was almost undeniably "god" making "his/her" presence known?
Again, in the last 100 years?

Now I know I'll get some answers that are in the realm of:

"If you can't see them it's because you're not looking."
"If you're not open to them, you won't find them."

That's very vague.

I'm looking for a specific incident. Something where a history book 2000 years from now will suggest that yes, "god" did indeed have a hand in ____________ happen during the mid-1900's to early 2000's.
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I haven't read this entire thread, so I apologize if someone has already asked this. I'm curious if you can point to any report of an event that is undeniably some god acting in the world--even by the metaphysical and epistemic standards of the day in which the event was supposed to have happened, or alternately, when we think it was written down? Let me explain by way of example:

Take the incident in Exodus with the burning bush. It was probably fictional, but was believed to have been historical fact by a sufficient number of people to qualify here. The question I'm asking is whether people at the time might have, by their own epistemic and metaphysical standards, have thought something else was going on? It seems to me that it is almost surely the case that this was not recognized as a genuine instance of the interference of a god in the world. In fact, Moses himself expressed some very significant skepticism, and he was experiencing it first hand. He asks, first "how do I know it's really the God of Abraham?" Then he asks why in the world God would choose him. Then he asked how the other people he was being sent to would know that it was God, and not something else. Then Moses says "I really don't believe you," so God tells him of a few signs. He saw them as signs that any magician could do, and basically said "look, no one is going to buy that--you're going to have to find a smooth-talker, 'cause I ain't doin' it." And then God got really mad and said "hey, don't you have a brother?" and Moses, apparently not wanting his brother to be threatened, decided to go back to Egypt. But then apparently his wife, Ziporah, was skeptical, and so God had to threaten to kill Moses.

Now obviously some people--namely the Hebrews--did come to believe that it was God. But the Egyptians had their doubts, and many eventually died for those doubts, according to the story.

So now, today, there are obviously plenty of people who believe that God unambiguously acts in the world. But then there are skeptics as well, and I take it you're asking for something that would convince all, or most, skeptics--you know, like how it was in ancient times. But that never happened in ancient times. Not once that I can think of.

Now, if you're asking for something else, please clarify. But the premise of your question is flawed as far as I can tell, as described above.
 
ashurbanipal said:
...take the incident in Exodus with the burning bush. It was probably fictional...
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Are you also going to argue that the parting of the Red Sea was fictional too.


I mean, no way could a natural force part the Red Sea.
 
Rich2018 said:
Are you also going to argue that the parting of the Red Sea was fictional too.


I mean, no way could a natural force part the Red Sea.
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It almost certainly is fictional. Natural forces certainly could part the Red Sea. That doesn't mean they actually did, or that God parted the Red Sea, or anything else about what really happened, as far as I can tell.
 
ashurbanipal said:
I haven't read this entire thread, so I apologize if someone has already asked this. I'm curious if you can point to any report of an event that is undeniably some god acting in the world--even by the metaphysical and epistemic standards of the day in which the event was supposed to have happened, or alternately, when we think it was written down? Let me explain by way of example:

Take the incident in Exodus with the burning bush. It was probably fictional, but was believed to have been historical fact by a sufficient number of people to qualify here. The question I'm asking is whether people at the time might have, by their own epistemic and metaphysical standards, have thought something else was going on? It seems to me that it is almost surely the case that this was not recognized as a genuine instance of the interference of a god in the world. In fact, Moses himself expressed some very significant skepticism, and he was experiencing it first hand. He asks, first "how do I know it's really the God of Abraham?" Then he asks why in the world God would choose him. Then he asked how the other people he was being sent to would know that it was God, and not something else. Then Moses says "I really don't believe you," so God tells him of a few signs. He saw them as signs that any magician could do, and basically said "look, no one is going to buy that--you're going to have to find a smooth-talker, 'cause I ain't doin' it." And then God got really mad and said "hey, don't you have a brother?" and Moses, apparently not wanting his brother to be threatened, decided to go back to Egypt. But then apparently his wife, Ziporah, was skeptical, and so God had to threaten to kill Moses.

Now obviously some people--namely the Hebrews--did come to believe that it was God. But the Egyptians had their doubts, and many eventually died for those doubts, according to the story.

So now, today, there are obviously plenty of people who believe that God unambiguously acts in the world. But then there are skeptics as well, and I take it you're asking for something that would convince all, or most, skeptics--you know, like how it was in ancient times. But that never happened in ancient times. Not once that I can think of.

Now, if you're asking for something else, please clarify. But the premise of your question is flawed as far as I can tell, as described above.
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Plenty of people take the bible quite literally.

Others don't.

Many of the things you state I fully agree with. A great deal of religious belief is wrapped up in the idea that if something we can't explain happens, it must have been god.

We have a member here who's flat out stated god is responsible for starting WW1.

I'm just wondering what people believe and why. That's all.


Every time a natural disaster strikes there's always somebody who says god did it to punish the sinners.
A few people somehow survive a situation where many others die and people say it was a miracle from god.


Sure, a century from now when all the people today are dead and can't answer for anything, somebody could say that the events of ____________ in 2018 were obviously the work of god directly getting involved and who could truly challenge those comments?


It really just all comes down to me asking what the believers believe, but on a larger scale than just a personal epiphany.
 
Dragonfly said:
Plenty of people take the bible quite literally.

Others don't.

Many of the things you state I fully agree with. A great deal of religious belief is wrapped up in the idea that if something we can't explain happens, it must have been god.

We have a member here who's flat out stated god is responsible for starting WW1.

I'm just wondering what people believe and why. That's all.


Every time a natural disaster strikes there's always somebody who says god did it to punish the sinners.
A few people somehow survive a situation where many others die and people say it was a miracle from god.


Sure, a century from now when all the people today are dead and can't answer for anything, somebody could say that the events of ____________ in 2018 were obviously the work of god directly getting involved and who could truly challenge those comments?


It really just all comes down to me asking what the believers believe, but on a larger scale than just a personal epiphany.
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Correction...I said the actions in heaven, of Satan and his demons being thrown out, had/have a direct effect on what has gone on on the earth since that time...there is a difference...
 
Dragonfly said:
Has “god” done anything in the past 100 years that even remotely equals in scope any of the things “god” has been credited with doing roughly 2000-ish years ago, and/or any time previous to then?


Can you site an instance, a date, a specific occurrence that was almost undeniably "god" making "his/her" presence known?
Again, in the last 100 years?

Now I know I'll get some answers that are in the realm of:

"If you can't see them it's because you're not looking."
"If you're not open to them, you won't find them."

That's very vague.

I'm looking for a specific incident. Something where a history book 2000 years from now will suggest that yes, "god" did indeed have a hand in ____________ happen during the mid-1900's to early 2000's.
Click to expand...

I apologize. Its my fault

She has been, ummm, "relaxing" at my place

BTW, not only can she do anything, she will do anything
 
Elvira said:
Correction...I said the actions in heaven, of Satan and his demons being thrown out, had/have a direct effect on what has gone on on the earth since that time...there is a difference...
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How do you know that Satan and his demons were thrown out of heaven ?
 
RAMOSS said:
How do you know the Book of Revelation is true, and your intepretation of it is correct?
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How do you know it's not?
 
Elvira said:
How do you know it's not?
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That is the logical fallacy known as 'shifting the burden of proof'. You are quotig from it, and claiming it's true. I want you to support that claim.
 
RAMOSS said:
That is the logical fallacy known as 'shifting the burden of proof'. You are quotig from it, and claiming it's true. I want you to support that claim.
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I support it because it is in God's Word and I have studied the Scriptures enough to believe that 1914 is the year pointed to through Bible chronology and the events since 1914 are in fulfillment of prophecy....
 
Truth be told, I think we're still in the 7th Day of creation. If you go through Genesis and look at the way things happened... it's exactly the same sequence of events that science says occurred. It's a simplified version, of course, because it was written 4000 years ago... but it has always struck me how much the science and the theology matched up.

First there was a formless void. Then God said let there be light... the Big Bang.

On the second day, matter started coalescing... the waters were separated from the waters. The Earth and it's atmosphere developed.

On the third day, life started to form, first as simple vegetation, then later more advanced trees.

On the fourth day, Genesis goes into a dialogue about the greater light to rule the day (the Sun) and the lesser light (the Moon) to rule the night. That lesser light also happened to give us the tides... could it be that tidal activity was responsible for the evolution of microbial vegetation into more advanced (animal) forms of life? I'm not an expert on evolutionary science, but it seems plausible to me.

On the fifth day, living creatures were formed, first in the seas and in the air....

And then, on the sixth day, land creatures were formed... first, the lower animals, and then man.

It seems to me, this is pretty much exactly how I'd explain the theory of evolution if I were to go back to when the Bible was first written. It's the same sequence of events. The only barrier is taking the time frames as literal days... well, the Bible also says that for God, a day is as a thousand years (2 Peter 3:8). So if a day can be a thousand years, why can't it also be billions of years? The whole point is that to God - who we take as an infinite being, with no beginning and no end - time is a meaningless concept.
 
Cordelier said:
Truth be told, I think we're still in the 7th Day of creation. If you go through Genesis and look at the way things happened... it's exactly the same sequence of events that science says occurred. It's a simplified version, of course, because it was written 4000 years ago... but it has always struck me how much the science and the theology matched up.

First there was a formless void. Then God said let there be light... the Big Bang.

On the second day, matter started coalescing... the waters were separated from the waters. The Earth and it's atmosphere developed.

On the third day, life started to form, first as simple vegetation, then later more advanced trees.

On the fourth day, Genesis goes into a dialogue about the greater light to rule the day (the Sun) and the lesser light (the Moon) to rule the night. That lesser light also happened to give us the tides... could it be that tidal activity was responsible for the evolution of microbial vegetation into more advanced (animal) forms of life? I'm not an expert on evolutionary science, but it seems plausible to me.

On the fifth day, living creatures were formed, first in the seas and in the air....

And then, on the sixth day, land creatures were formed... first, the lower animals, and then man.

It seems to me, this is pretty much exactly how I'd explain the theory of evolution if I were to go back to when the Bible was first written. It's the same sequence of events. The only barrier is taking the time frames as literal days... well, the Bible also says that for God, a day is as a thousand years (2 Peter 3:8). So if a day can be a thousand years, why can't it also be billions of years? The whole point is that to God - who we take as an infinite being, with no beginning and no end - time is a meaningless concept.
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The usual a day can be anything excuse. The bible has nothing to do with science. If you think that there only have been seven periods in the history of the Earth then you are mistaken.
 
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zyzygy said:
The usual a day can be anything excuse. The bible has nothing to do with science. If you think that there only have been seven periods in the history of the Earth then you are mistaken.
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Obviously it's a very simplified explanation... I'm not saying the Bible should ever be taken scientific text.... but if you take it in the same way someone would explain evolution to a small child, for instance, the parallels are there.
 
Cordelier said:
Obviously it's a very simplified explanation... I'm not saying the Bible should ever be taken scientific text.... but if you take it in the same way someone would explain evolution to a small child, for instance, the parallels are there.
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Any holy book with a creation myth could be used. I would never use the bible to explain anything scientific to a child. I would go with reality.
 
zyzygy said:
Any holy book with a creation myth could be used. I would never use the bible to explain anything scientific to a child. I would go with reality.
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Perhaps... it's the sequence of events and the way in which the Bible describes them that I find striking, though.
 
Cordelier said:
Perhaps... it's the sequence of events and the way in which the Bible describes them that I find striking, though.
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I don't. It has nothing to do with the true history of the universe.
 
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