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[W: 355] Does the Bible teach eternal torment in hell for the unbelievers?

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Elvira said:
God told them what they could not do and He also told them what would happen if they did...that is knowledge, not ignorance...
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IFyou tell a baby that crawls on the ground not to touch a hot plate, and then put a hot plate on the ground, is that baby responsible if she crawls over and touches the hot plate?
 
Cordelier said:
I've got to tell you, Elvira - and I say this in the spirit of Peter, with a mild temper and deep respect - if there were more Christians like you, there'd probably be a lot more Christians.
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:thumbs:
 
Cordelier said:
I've got to tell you, Elvira - and I say this in the spirit of Peter, with a mild temper and deep respect - if there were more Christians like you, there'd probably be a lot more Christians.
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Well, thank you for that...I always want to give a good witness for my God...I am honored to carry His name, Jehovah...my desire is for everyone to come to know Him and his son, Jesus Christ...
 
Elvira said:
No, you said the sheep were not individuals...the scriptures say different...
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There's more to individuality than personality, though. It takes more than having a name. To be an individual is to think your own thoughts, and form your own ideas. There has to be a spark of intelligence there.
 
Cordelier said:
There's more to individuality than personality, though. It takes more than having a name. To be an individual is to think your own thoughts, and form your own ideas. There has to be a spark of intelligence there.
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Agreed but a person can be have all those things and still be a Christian...as Bob Dylan said, we all have to serve somebody...why not serve someone who can offer you what no one else can...contentment, happiness, satisfaction, and a real hope for the future?
 
Cordelier said:
There's more to individuality than personality, though. It takes more than having a name. To be an individual is to think your own thoughts, and form your own ideas. There has to be a spark of intelligence there.
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I would want to tour the premises and see an itinerary before I made any reservations for an eternity. It could turn out like that old Twilight Zone episode with Sebastian Cabot who played the role of the 'bad guy.'
 
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Elvira said:
Agreed but a person can be have all those things and still be a Christian...as Bob Dylan said, we all have to serve somebody...why not serve someone who can offer you what no one else can...contentment, happiness, satisfaction, and a real hope for the future?
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The only reason I can think of to not serve them is if they ask too much in return. You maintain that all God asks for is obedience. I think it's intelligence. We can debate the difference, but truthfully, in the end, I don't think there is a difference. If you give obedience, you surrender freedom... if there is no freedom, whether in action, thought, or deed, then intelligence inevitably withers away. The individual intelligence gives way to the herd mentality.... and that's what I have a problem with.
 
Cordelier said:
The only reason I can think of to not serve them is if they ask too much in return. You maintain that all God asks for is obedience. I think it's intelligence. We can debate the difference, but truthfully, in the end, I don't think there is a difference. If you give obedience, you surrender freedom... if there is no freedom, whether in action, thought, or deed, then intelligence inevitably withers away. The individual intelligence gives way to the herd mentality.... and that's what I have a problem with.
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A bit off topic, Cord...just curious....Would you want to exist for eternity?
 
Logician Man said:
I would want to tour the premises and see an itinerary before I made any reservations for an eternity. It could turn out like that old Twilight Zone episode with Sebastian Cabot who played the role of the 'bad guy.'
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Was that the whole "be careful what you wish for" one?

Either way, I don't think requesting a guided tour before you decide would exactly be in line with the whole having faith requirement, do you? *L*

If you'd like a brochure, though, you probably want to consult Milton and Dante.
 
Cordelier said:
Was that the whole "be careful what you wish for" one?

Either way, I don't think requesting a guided tour before you decide would exactly be in line with the whole having faith requirement, do you? *L*

If you'd like a brochure, though, you probably want to consult Milton and Dante.
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It may be the same one, Cord...I do remember the last line in that episode was Cabot ( playing the Devil, dressed in a white suit ) laughing hysterically saying "This IS the other place!!! "
 
Logician Man said:
A bit off topic, Cord...just curious....Would you want to exist for eternity?
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I think it's a nice concept in theory... so long as you got to keep your marbles. Like Milton's Lucifer says in Paradise Lost, "The mind is its own place, and in it self, Can make a Heav’n of Hell, a Hell of Heav’n."

In reality though, I think when the lights go out, that's all she wrote. But that's alright too... it's not like you'd know any differently either way.

How about you?
 
Cordelier said:
I think it's a nice concept in theory... so long as you got to keep your marbles. Like Milton's Lucifer says in Paradise Lost, "The mind is its own place, and in it self, Can make a Heav’n of Hell, a Hell of Heav’n."

In reality though, I think when the lights go out, that's all she wrote. But that's alright too... it's not like you'd know any differently either way.

How about you?
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Well, honestly, 'if' there is an afterlife ( which I seriously doubt ), the one thing I would enjoy would be the ability to travel around the universe (s) and check things out..Other than that, I'm content having lived this one life, and agree with you that when the lights go out, it's game over....and I'm fine with that....Sleep is a beautiful thing.
 
Logician Man said:
It may be the same one, Cord...I do remember the last line in that episode was Cabot ( playing the Devil, dressed in a white suit ) laughing hysterically saying "This IS the other place!!! "
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It rings a bell... I've got to pick up a boxed set of Twilight Zone DVD's - it's been years since I've watched them, and I'm pretty sure I haven't seen'em all.
 
Cordelier said:
It rings a bell... I've got to pick up a boxed set of Twilight Zone DVD's - it's been years since I've watched them, and I'm pretty sure I haven't seen'em all.
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The gest of that episode is a dude dies and is met by Cabot, who mistakenly thinks Cabot is God. The guy was a scoudrel/playboy/con artist in real life, so he's quite surprised he finds himself in 'heaven' after dying..Can have antying he wants....Starts with women,booze,boats,etc,etc,etc....eventually gets bored to tears,begs God ( Cabot/actually Satan ) to 'Go to the OTHER place (hell. ) that's when Cabot gives that last line laughing hysterically.....Depending on which tv service you have,if any, one channel ( can't recall which one ) runs marathons once a week.
 
Logician Man said:
Well, honestly, 'if' there is an afterlife ( which I seriously doubt ), the one thing I would enjoy would be the ability to travel around the universe (s) and check things out..Other than that, I'm content having lived this one life, and agree with you that when the lights go out, it's game over....and I'm fine with that....Sleep is a beautiful thing.
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That'd be cool if travelling around the Universe is an option... but that's thinking like a mortal. If there is an afterlife, would we even care about the Universe anymore? What's the use exploring it if you can't interact with it anymore? When you finally realize you're dead, it's got to screw with your head a little - make you see things differently. It's like some toy you thought was cool when you were a kid, but seems pretty lame now. Like the concept of time.... for you and me right now, time is a spur to action. Time is running out and we have to race to get things done before it's gone. But if you're talking about eternity.... and time is unlimited, then what's the big deal? It has no meaning anymore. Okay... so you explore the whole universe all at once. Big deal. Seen one bunch of aliens, you've seen'em all. Been there, done that. Guess what? They deal with pretty much the same crap we deal with. Boring. Let's drop in and see how our great-great-great-great grandkids turned out. Hokay... they're boring too.

Death is such a personal thing... even if you die in an airplane crash with 300 other people, everyone dies on their own. Maybe it's like being like a comatose stroke victim just trapped in your own head? What you take with you is what you've got to work with?
 
Logician Man said:
The gest of that episode is a dude dies and is met by Cabot, who mistakenly thinks Cabot is God. The guy was a scoudrel/playboy/con artist in real life, so he's quite surprised he finds himself in 'heaven' after dying..Can have antying he wants....Starts with women,booze,boats,etc,etc,etc....eventually gets bored to tears,begs God ( Cabot/actually Satan ) to 'Go to the OTHER place (hell. ) that's when Cabot gives that last line laughing hysterically.....Depending on which tv service you have,if any, one channel ( can't recall which one ) runs marathons once a week.
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We just steam everything we watch nowadays... we don't even have TV anymore - it seemed like everything on TV was crap, and all of the half decent shows are on streaming services (without commercials). Ended up paying about half the price for way better content.
 
Cordelier said:
That'd be cool if travelling around the Universe is an option... but that's thinking like a mortal. If there is an afterlife, would we even care about the Universe anymore? What's the use exploring it if you can't interact with it anymore? When you finally realize you're dead, it's got to screw with your head a little - make you see things differently. It's like some toy you thought was cool when you were a kid, but seems pretty lame now. Like the concept of time.... for you and me right now, time is a spur to action. Time is running out and we have to race to get things done before it's gone. But if you're talking about eternity.... and time is unlimited, then what's the big deal? It has no meaning anymore. Okay... so you explore the whole universe all at once. Big deal. Seen one bunch of aliens, you've seen'em all. Been there, done that. Guess what? They deal with pretty much the same crap we deal with. Boring. Let's drop in and see how our great-great-great-great grandkids turned out. Hokay... they're boring too.

Death is such a personal thing... even if you die in an airplane crash with 300 other people, everyone dies on their own. Maybe it's like being like a comatose stroke victim just trapped in your own head? What you take with you is what you've got to work with?
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Couldn't agree more,Cord. It gets back to what you stated upthread. If you don't remain you, what;s the point anyway?. My worst nightmare would be spending eternity with the biblical O.T. god. It's a brutal monster...And if,indeed, we remain and retain 'ourselves', this God thingy would have to know I couldn't stand his presence, his 'legacy', his brutal, senseless killings...on and on and on...and as you also stated,however long it would take, I'd get bored traveling the universe too....So, in sum, if it's my call to make, just give me a quick,painless death, and I'm fine with that. I'm almost 66, and I couldn't have asked for a more funfilled,full life. great wife,great kids,grand kids, great grand kids, money, good health....the whole 10 yards and more.
 
Cordelier said:
We just steam everything we watch nowadays... we don't even have TV anymore - it seemed like everything on TV was crap, and all of the half decent shows are on streaming services (without commercials). Ended up paying about half the price for way better content.
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The main reason I'm not a cord cutter ( yet ) is I;m retired and love to bet on race horses, and there is only one TV channel I can watch the races on and get input and feedback from the the 'pros,; ( TVG) I bet on races all day about 4 or 5 days a week,work out while I'm gambling, and playing with one of my great grand sons, as well as being a caregiver for my wife..
 
Logician Man said:
Couldn't agree more,Cord. It gets back to what you stated upthread. If you don't remain you, what;s the point anyway?. My worst nightmare would be spending eternity with the biblical O.T. god. It's a brutal monster...And if,indeed, we remain and retain 'ourselves', this God thingy would have to know I couldn't stand his presence, his 'legacy', his brutal, senseless killings...on and on and on...and as you also stated,however long it would take, I'd get bored traveling the universe too....So, in sum, if it's my call to make, just give me a quick,painless death, and I'm fine with that. I'm almost 66, and I couldn't have asked for a more funfilled,full life. great wife,great kids,grand kids, great grand kids, money, good health....the whole 10 yards and more.
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Exactly so.... I think existence is like any commodity... what gives it worth is it's scarcity. You value it because eventually it runs out. Knowing this makes us cherish the time we do have and the people we care about all the more. If we were all assured of eternal existence - either in this life or the hereafter, it wouldn't have any value whatsoever.

You know the people I really look up to? The atheists who lead good lives.... they don't believe in God or the afterlife - they're not in it for the reward, They're out there everyday helping people and doing good works just because it's the right thing to do. I think any belief system that says they should be condemned to Hell despite all of this isn't worth a bucket of warmed-over spit.
 
Logician Man said:
The main reason I'm not a cord cutter ( yet ) is I;m retired and love to bet on race horses, and there is only one TV channel I can watch the races on and get input and feedback from the the 'pros,; ( TVG) I bet on races all day about 4 or 5 days a week,work out while I'm gambling, and playing with one of my great grand sons, as well as being a caregiver for my wife..
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Yeah... that's the major drawback of cord cutting alright, news and sports. I'm a big basketball fan... I can stream NBA games no problem, but it has really cut into watching College Hoops (NCAA is still dealing with all the revenue sharing issues).... which is unfortunate, because I much prefer the College games.
 
Cordelier said:
Exactly so.... I think existence is like any commodity... what gives it worth is it's scarcity. You value it because eventually it runs out. Knowing this makes us cherish the time we do have and the people we care about all the more. If we were all assured of eternal existence - either in this life or the hereafter, it wouldn't have any value whatsoever.

You know the people I really look up to? The atheists who lead good lives.... they don't believe in God or the afterlife - they're not in it for the reward, They're out there everyday helping people and doing good works just because it's the right thing to do. I think any belief system that says they should be condemned to Hell despite all of this isn't worth a bucket of warmed-over spit.
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I'm an atheist, Cord, and not to brag, but I'll take my resume any day...Been with the same gal for 53 years ( no hanky panky )...self made man...busted my ass off for the family...never physically transgressed anyone ( but never took crap from anyone either )....raising a great grand son after talking one of my grand daughters out of aborting ( no spring chicken myself ).never stole..do volunteer work with 'at risk kids' twice a week....If I have to go to 'hell' simply because I was handed a book and found it not to be factual,so be it. I could profess this or that til the cows come home. If 'salvation' is that easy, then IMO it's too easy.Look at this thread..Hell, even Christians are condemning other Christians to same hell they are condemning myself and others too....such silliness.
 
Logician Man said:
I'm an atheist, Cord, and not to brag, but I'll take my resume any day...Been with the same gal for 53 years ( no hanky panky )...self made man...busted my ass off for the family...never physically transgressed anyone ( but never took crap from anyone either )....raising a great grand son after talking one of my grand daughters out of aborting ( no spring chicken myself ).never stole..do volunteer work with 'at risk kids' twice a week....If I have to go to 'hell' simply because I was handed a book and found it not to be factual,so be it. I could profess this or that til the cows come home. If 'salvation' is that easy, then IMO it's too easy.Look at this thread..Hell, even Christians are condemning other Christians to same hell they are condemning myself and others too....such silliness.
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Have you ever read the Epistle of James?
 
Cordelier said:
Yeah... that's the major drawback of cord cutting alright, news and sports. I'm a big basketball fan... I can stream NBA games no problem, but it has really cut into watching College Hoops (NCAA is still dealing with all the revenue sharing issues).... which is unfortunate, because I much prefer the College games.
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I'm an OKla U. Grad ( 74 -78 )..Don't know if you remember him or not, but I used to write Billy Sim's english comp papers for extra football tickets...Kenny King and the Selmon bothers too if you remeber those guys.....Looking forward to the OU/Alabama FBS game DEc 29th......Hoping for the best/expecting the worst. ")
 
Cordelier said:
Have you ever read the Epistle of James?
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yes...but admittedly it's been a long time ago...Once I became an atheist I really put the bible down and never looked back. I've studied Islam a bit, and to a lesser degree Hinduism and Buddhism.
 
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