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JW's 46 Questions to Trinitarians

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Suburban Jedi said:
Personally, I don't think Jesus ever considered himself to be God. The three earliest gospels (Matthew, Mark,Luke)never once portray Jesus proclaiming his divinity. Only John does that.
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I repeat...you are too intelligent to be in this thread...also, Christ can be/is divine without being Almighty God Himself...

di·vine1
/dəˈvīn/Submit
adjective
1.
of, from, or like God or a god.
"heroes with divine powers"
synonyms: godly, angelic, seraphic, saintly, beatific

https://www.google.com/search?q=div...j69i57j0l4.10354j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
 
calamity said:
Why can't he just be a man with some good ideas?


Inquiring minds want to know.
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You're free to believe whatever...I believe, according to scripture, he is the son of God, the firstborn of all creation...thus divine...
 
Suburban Jedi said:
I'm not a JW,I'm a (somewhat heretical) Catholic

But scripture does not support the idea of a Trinity. Genesis 1:26 is generally considered by scholars to be referring to the divine court. Matthew 27:19 is the ONLY place in the entire Bible where "Father, son,Holy Spirit" are mentioned together. 1John 5:7 is a later interpolation
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What scholars?
 
it's just me said:
What scholars?
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I wish I could remember some of them,I wrote a paper on Gen 1:26 and the phrase "b'tzalmenu di kiddimentenu" (our likeness and image) a couple years ago for Dr. Ehud Ben Zvi. If I find the paper I'll let you know.
 
Suburban Jedi said:
I'm not a JW,I'm a (somewhat heretical) Catholic

But scripture does not support the idea of a Trinity. Genesis 1:26 is generally considered by scholars to be referring to the divine court. Matthew 27:19 is the ONLY place in the entire Bible where "Father, son,Holy Spirit" are mentioned together. 1John 5:7 is a later interpolation
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As for Genesis 1:26, that merely shows that Jesus was alongside Jehovah God, while creating the earth and its inhabitants, as the Bible states in other scriptures...

"Then I was beside him as a master worker.
I was the one he was especially fond of day by day;
I rejoiced before him all the time;" Proverbs 8:30

"All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence." John 1:3

"because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him." Colossians 1:16

Since Jesus was the firstborn of all creation, that makes sense...

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;" Colossians 1:15
 
Suburban Jedi said:
I wish I could remember some of them,I wrote a paper on Gen 1:26 and the phrase "b'tzalmenu di kiddimentenu" (our likeness and image) a couple years ago for Dr. Ehud Ben Zvi. If I find the paper I'll let you know.
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I see.
 
Suburban Jedi said:
I wish I could remember some of them,I wrote a paper on Gen 1:26 and the phrase "b'tzalmenu di kiddimentenu" (our likeness and image) a couple years ago for Dr. Ehud Ben Zvi. If I find the paper I'll let you know.
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That would be interesting...please post if you find it...
 
Elvira said:
As for Genesis 1:26, that merely shows that Jesus was alongside Jehovah God, while creating the earth and its inhabitants, as the Bible states in other scriptures...

"Then I was beside him as a master worker.
I was the one he was especially fond of day by day;
I rejoiced before him all the time;" Proverbs 8:30

"All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence." John 1:3

"because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him." Colossians 1:16

Since Jesus was the firstborn of all creation, that makes sense...

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;" Colossians 1:15
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No one created the earth and its inhabitants. The earth formed from remnants of burnt out and blown up stars. Fact.
 
I tend to be a contextualist, and as such I think using much later Christian scriptures to interpret old Hebrew ones warps the original meaning of the passage. I would even further advance the notion that the early Israelites were not monotheists at all -- but were at best henotheists or monolators. See Psalm 82 and Exodus 15:11
 
calamity said:
No one created the earth and its inhabitants. The earth formed from remnants of burnt out and blown up stars. Fact.
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I believe what God's Word tells me...you don't have to...
 
Suburban Jedi said:
I tend to be a contextualist, and as such I think using much later Christian scriptures to interpret old Hebrew ones warps the original meaning of the passage. I would even further advance the notion that the early Israelites were not monotheists at all -- but were at best henotheists or modulators. See Psalm 82 and Exodus 15:11
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The Bible speaks of other gods, though being false in power...like the Egyptian gods Moses went up against...
 
Elvira said:
The Bible speaks of other gods, though being false in power...like the Egyptian gods Moses went up against...
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The current trend in scholarship--even in some evangelical circles -- is viewing monotheism of the Israelites as a gradual development within the context of Judaism as part of the larger Canaanite culture. In other words, it started as a Canaanite folk religion that developed in situ and onlygradually became monotheist. For example, Israelites and other Canaanites used four horned altars, had the same ritual sacrificial practices, even the Temple was a quintessential Canaanite temple similar to the one at Ain'Dara in Syria. In fact, many of Yahweh's titles are titles of El, the Canaanite High God, like El Elyon, El shaddai, El Olam, El Roi and so on.

There are also clues in the Bible itself. For example, prior to the writing of Deuteronomy and the Deuteronomistic History (likely written around the time of Josiah in the early 6th Century BC, cf 2Ki22), there are no clear proclamations of monotheism. Like Ps 82, Ex 15 and several other places, there are mentions of other gods, and even hints that they believed these other gods had power (see King Mesha's sacrifice in 2 Kings 3). Also King David named his sons after no fewer than five gods: Baal (beelyada), Shalim (Absalom), Yamm (Abijam), among them.

Around the time of the Exile the "Yahweh Alone" movement won out. This is also seen in the archaeological record. Before the Exile, they find lots of Asherah figurines. After the Exile, almost none are found.

Personally, I don't see this as faith-shattering, the Bible is the "Word of God" but it is also the "Word of Humans". Humans wrote, edited, redacted, copied, translated and eventually compiled it. So I don't read it "literally", but also hold that God speaks to us through it as well.
 
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Suburban Jedi said:
Fair enough. So where did Jesus ever once claim to be God outside of John?
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Why? You don't think John was also God-inspired?

To answer your question, here's one:





Matthew 12
Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath

12 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry?
4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests.
5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent?
6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here.
7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”







What does it mean that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath?


The phrase “the Lord of the Sabbath” is found in Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28, and Luke 6:5.
In all three instances Jesus is referring to Himself as the Lord of the Sabbath or, as Mark records it, “The Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath” (Mark 2:28). In these verses, Jesus is proclaiming that He is the One who exercises authority even over the rules and regulations that govern the Sabbath day.

As such, Jesus was proclaiming to the world, especially to the legalistic Pharisees, that He was greater than the Law and above the laws of the Mosaic Covenant because, as God in flesh, He is the Author of those laws.
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https://www.gotquestions.org/Lord-of-the-Sabbath.html



Here's another one: This time, it's God Himself, who's identifying with Jesus!


Isaiah 44
There Is No Other God

6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.


Who claims to be The Alpha and Omega (The First and The last)? Jesus Christ!




What does it mean that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega?


Answer: Jesus proclaimed Himself to be the “Alpha and Omega” in Revelation 1:8, 11; 21:6; and 22:13.

Alpha and omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. Among the Jewish rabbis, it was common to use the first and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet to denote the whole of anything, from beginning to end. Jesus as the beginning and end of all things is a reference to no one but the true God. This statement of eternality could apply only to God. It is seen especially in Revelation 22:13, where Jesus proclaims that He is “the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

One of the meanings of Jesus being the “Alpha and Omega” is that He was at the beginning of all things and will be at the close. It is equivalent to saying He always existed and always will exist. It was Christ, as second Person of the Trinity, who brought about the creation: “Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made” (John 1:3), and His Second Coming will be the beginning of the end of creation as we know it (2 Peter 3:10). As God incarnate, He has no beginning, nor will He have any end with respect to time, being from everlasting to everlasting.

A second meaning of Jesus as the “Alpha and Omega” is that the phrase identifies Him as the God of the Old Testament.

Isaiah ascribes this aspect of Jesus’ nature as part of the triune God in several places.
“I, the Lord, am the first, and with the last I am He” (41:4).
“I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God” (Isaiah 44:6).
“I am he; I am the first, I also am the last” (Isaiah 48:12).

These are clear indications of the eternal nature of the Godhead.
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https://www.gotquestions.org/alpha-and-omega.html


It's obvious that you have not read the link that I gave you. That thread gives and explains so many verses.


I'll have to ignore your posts.....unless there's something worth responding to.
 
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1) I hold that John is part of the "Word of God", but that doesn't mean it's free from error or a misleading view of Jesus via its High Christology.

2)I think Matthew 12 supports the idea Jesus is Messiah, and as such has a three-fold role (in Matthew's very Jewish view) as High Priest,King and Prophet. And he also apparently had a view that believers themselves exercised certain power to change laws (Matt 18:18, Matthew 9:1-8). That doesn't mean he was somehow saying Jesus was God.
 
Suburban Jedi said:
1) I hold that John is part of the "Word of God", but that doesn't mean it's free from error or a misleading view of Jesus via its High Christology.

2)I think Matthew 12 supports the idea Jesus is Messiah, and as such has a three-fold role (in Matthew's very Jewish view) as High Priest,King and Prophet. And he also apparently had a view that believers themselves exercised certain power to change laws (Matt 18:18, Matthew 9:1-8). That doesn't mean he was somehow saying Jesus was God.
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I'm not a fan of John. And, I hold that not only is it not the word of God, but that it is also the word of bigoted men who hated Jews.

The other books: Mathew, Luke and Mark; are better, IMO. Although, I also do not consider them the "word of god." I do see those works in a more positive light, however, than I do John.
 
The funny thing is the author of John (almost assuredly not actually the Apostle John-- the gospels are actually all anonymous) was very likely Jewish himself.

I do see the Bible as the "Word of God", but not in the sense that evangelicals do vis a vis the 1978 Chicago Statement. It has errors, it has bigotry and some not very nice things in it. I see these as human elements.
 
Suburban Jedi said:
The funny thing is the author of John (almost assuredly not actually the Apostle John-- the gospels are actually all anonymous) was very likely Jewish himself.
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It's not uncommon for splinter groups to turn on their forefathers. It happened to Christians, when Protestants turned on the Mother Church in the years following Martin Luther.

I do see the Bible as the "Word of God", but not in the sense that evangelicals do vis a vis the 1978 Chicago Statement. It has errors, it has bigotry and some not very nice things in it. I see these as human elements.
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I can see how almost anything man writes or says could be interpreted as the word of something other than man. But, in essence, it really is just the words of men.
 
And you're within your rights to have that view. I view God as having persausive rather than coercive omnipotence,and as such if the teachings are kind, loving, just, etc then I see that as an expression of God working through us as humans.
 
Suburban Jedi said:
And you're within your rights to have that view. I view God as having persausive rather than coercive omnipotence,and as such if the teachings are kind, loving, just, etc then I see that as an expression of God working through us as humans.
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That is the ideal: A loving god nudging us in the right direction.

I could go on for hours explaining why I do not think this is happening. But, it is a nice thought. So, I'll leave it at that.
 
calamity said:
That is the ideal: A loving god nudging us in the right direction.

I could go on for hours explaining why I do not think this is happening. But, it is a nice thought. So, I'll leave it at that.
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I would have to disagree. There are all sorts of reasons to think we're moving in the right direction. For example, in ancient societies approximately 1/3 of all males died in combat, for the past century that's less than 1%.
 
Elvira said:
As for Genesis 1:26, that merely shows that Jesus was alongside Jehovah God, while creating the earth and its inhabitants, as the Bible states in other scriptures...

"Then I was beside him as a master worker.
I was the one he was especially fond of day by day;
I rejoiced before him all the time;" Proverbs 8:30
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Proverbs 8 is about wisdom. Here's part of it.


Wisdom’s Call

8 Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?
2
At the highest point along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;
3
beside the gate leading into the city,
at the entrance, she cries aloud:
4
“To you, O people, I call out;
I raise my voice to all mankind.
5
You who are simple, gain prudence;
you who are foolish, set your hearts on it.[a]
6
Listen, for I have trustworthy things to say;
I open my lips to speak what is right.
7
My mouth speaks what is true,
for my lips detest wickedness.
8
All the words of my mouth are just;
none of them is crooked or perverse.
9
To the discerning all of them are right;
they are upright to those who have found knowledge.
10
Choose my instruction instead of silver,
knowledge rather than choice gold,
11
for wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.






"Why is wisdom referred to as a she in Proverbs?"

Answer: In Proverbs 1:20–33 and Proverbs 8:1—9:12, wisdom is personified as a woman who has much to offer—including “enduring wealth and prosperity” and “life”—to anyone who would heed her words (Proverbs 8:18, 35).

We will look at Proverbs 8 in particular, since it seems to be a jumping-off point for some creative “proof-texting” by cults such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses to arrive at conclusions with no textual warrant. We will cover the three subjects that are often disregarded when considering these verses—figure of speech, genre, and grammatical gender—to focus on the question, why is Wisdom a she?

Let’s start with figures of speech. These, by definition, should not be taken literally. For example, “And the Lord said, ‘What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground’” (Genesis 4:10).
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https://www.gotquestions.org/wisdom-she-Proverbs.html
 
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tosca1 said:
Proverbs 8 is about wisdom. Here's part of it.


Wisdom’s Call

8 Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?
2
At the highest point along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;
3
beside the gate leading into the city,
at the entrance, she cries aloud:
4
“To you, O people, I call out;
I raise my voice to all mankind.
5
You who are simple, gain prudence;
you who are foolish, set your hearts on it.[a]
6
Listen, for I have trustworthy things to say;
I open my lips to speak what is right.
7
My mouth speaks what is true,
for my lips detest wickedness.
8
All the words of my mouth are just;
none of them is crooked or perverse.
9
To the discerning all of them are right;
they are upright to those who have found knowledge.
10
Choose my instruction instead of silver,
knowledge rather than choice gold,
11
for wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.







https://www.gotquestions.org/wisdom-she-Proverbs.html
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Oh, God.
 
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