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Camels & Eyes of Needles

All it means is that you can serve God or serve money and you have to decide which is the more important. If you serve money, you'll have a difficult time reaching heaven. Being rich, in and of itself, is not the problem.

Shame on you for making sense. Still, Jesus displayed what the Marxists would call “class consciousness,” these days known by Latin American bishops and other followers of His as a “preferential option for the poor.”
 
Here's some history that may be significant regarding the St. Luke Scripture. American industrialists became outrageously wealthy. Men of coal, oil, lumber, railroads etc. They all grasped onto a vision that transformed America but it also created men of greed, men that had a thirst for power and wealth at any cost all their lives, until.... the final days of their lives. Then, they suddenly realized that they'd better make some amends and let go some of that wealth in a philanthropic manner, sort of an insurance policy against going straight to hell.

These men were knows as 'robber barons'. Robber barons were accused of eliminating competition through predatory pricing and then overcharging when they had a monopoly. Nineteenth-century robber barons included J.P. Morgan, Andrew Carnegie, Andrew W. Mellon, and John D. Rockefeller.

J.P. Morgan: Morgan used his influence to help stabilize American financial markets during several economic crises, including the panic of 1907. J.P. Morgan did little at the end of his life in order to squeeze through the eye of a needle. He died a camel.

Andrew Carnegie: Carnegie had made some charitable donations before 1901, but after that time, giving his money away became his new occupation. In 1902 he founded the Carnegie Institution to fund scientific research and established a pension fund for teachers with a $10 million donation. (easily paid his way out of hell, right?) After retiring in 1901 at the age of 66 as the world's richest man, Andrew Carnegie wanted to become a philanthropist, a person who gives money to good causes. He believed in the "Gospel of Wealth," which meant that wealthy people were morally obligated to give their money back to others in society.

Andrew Mellon: Mellon’s most precious gift to the nation came at the same time that he was being unsuccessfully prosecuted by the Government for tax evasion. Sadly, he didn’t live to see the judgment in his favour, which cleared him of all charges. Nor did he see the opening of the National Art Gallery.

John D. Rockefeller: Rockefeller’s enormous wealth and success made him a target of muckraking journalists, reform politicians and others who viewed him as a symbol of corporate greed and criticized the methods with which he’d built his empire. Inspired in part by fellow Gilded Age tycoon Andrew Carnegie (1835-1919), who made a vast fortune in the steel industry then became a philanthropist and gave away the bulk of his money, Rockefeller donated more than half a billion dollars to various educational, religious and scientific causes.

The fact is that there's many people of enormous wealth but there's also a fact that money corrupts and there aren't very many men, if any at all, that can sustain their greed for wealth and still maintain a belief in God, Bible, religion or morality.

Thanks for sharing those stories of these industrialists-cum-philanthropists. It is interesting to note that in order to become a philanthropist, they had to engage in questionable treatment of their workers, suppliers, and customers. I do wonder how God will reconcile their two paradoxical outlooks, but that is God's job, not mine.

My experience with more moderately wealthy people is most of them too have some shortcomings that give the "Camel & Eye of Needle" effect.

And as alluded to earlier, my lower middle class income puts me as one the wealthier people in a historical sense. I hope I'm not barred entry just because of that.
 
Shame on you for making sense. Still, Jesus displayed what the Marxists would call “class consciousness,” these days known by Latin American bishops and other followers of His as a “preferential option for the poor.”

Palestine, in Jesus time, was a place where 90% of the population lived in dire poverty and oppression. There was little chance of any upward social mobility. The Romans taxed the people to the point of no disposable income. The Jewish aristocracy and Pharisees set the social order up for their comfort. If average citizens could not pay their taxes or debts, they or family members were sold into slavery.

Judging from your comment, I sense that you have no idea what it is like to be poor. I have had a little taste of this--and it does effect your psyche, which then helps keep you poor.

Dave Volek :: Articles
 
Thanks for sharing those stories of these industrialists-cum-philanthropists. It is interesting to note that in order to become a philanthropist, they had to engage in questionable treatment of their workers, suppliers, and customers. I do wonder how God will reconcile their two paradoxical outlooks, but that is God's job, not mine.

My experience with more moderately wealthy people is most of them too have some shortcomings that give the "Camel & Eye of Needle" effect.

And as alluded to earlier, my lower middle class income puts me as one the wealthier people in a historical sense. I hope I'm not barred entry just because of that.

You can always hedge your bets and become a believer of Hinduism. As the Hindu religion teaches we are all composed of energy and of course energy never dies. According to Hinduism, a being has to live many lives and under go many experiences before it attains perfection and becomes one with the Divine. They believe that death is a temporary cessation of physical activity, a necessary means of recycling our energy and resources. Hinduism believes that a soul reincarnates again and again on earth until it becomes perfect and reunites with its 'Source'. During this process the soul enters into many bodies, assumes many forms and passes through many births and deaths.

I'm sort of attracted to this belief about death and judgment because it gives every soul a chance to do better in the next life.
 
Palestine, in Jesus time, was a place where 90% of the population lived in dire poverty and oppression. There was little chance of any upward social mobility. The Romans taxed the people to the point of no disposable income. The Jewish aristocracy and Pharisees set the social order up for their comfort. If average citizens could not pay their taxes or debts, they or family members were sold into slavery.

Judging from your comment, I sense that you have no idea what it is like to be poor. I have had a little taste of this--and it does effect your psyche, which then helps keep you poor.

Dave Volek :: Articles

Not sure I agree. Yes, there can be a sense of fatalism that overcomes poor people. Some of the best organizers, like the Brazilian Paolo Freire, have recognized this and responded, Freire thru his literacy teaching methods. His techniques translated in the US into the terms "consciousness-raising" and "empowerment". The notion was that you individually or allied with others can change things, once you step back and examine your situation critically.

My own history had me poorer than neighbor's, the only guy whose mom had to work, so I had a bit of a taste, experiencing some teasing from more affluent kids, with a $10 raise in rent causing worry from my parents. It did make me more desperate than others to get summer jobs, more embarrassed at our economic situation. But great parents and relatives and amazing teachers did their job well.
 
Palestine, in Jesus time, was a place where 90% of the population lived in dire poverty and oppression. There was little chance of any upward social mobility. The Romans taxed the people to the point of no disposable income. The Jewish aristocracy and Pharisees set the social order up for their comfort. If average citizens could not pay their taxes or debts, they or family members were sold into slavery.

Judging from your comment, I sense that you have no idea what it is like to be poor. I have had a little taste of this--and it does effect your psyche, which then helps keep you poor.

Dave Volek :: Articles


The concept of poverty is relative to someone's personal circumstances. There's an old Monty Python skit I'll post here. It's funny but beyond that it's really typical of men who are successful, have everything life offers and even at their stage in life still feel the need to compete, this time for 'who had it worse' growing up. The point is that 'wealth' is a relative term and to an observer from a 3rd world country, you or I could be viewed as someone very wealthy. I realize that for some, the British accent can be someone difficult to understand so I've put the narration below the video.



The 4 Yorkshiremen


(Four well-dressed men sitting together at a vacation resort. 'Farewell to Thee' being played in the background on Hawaiian guitar.)

Michael Palin: Ahh.. Very passable, this, very passable.

Graham Chapman: Nothing like a good glass of Chateau de Chassilier wine, ay Gessiah?

Terry Jones: You're right there Obediah.

Eric Idle: Who'd a thought thirty years ago we'd all be sittin' here drinking Chateau de Chassilier wine?

MP: Aye. In them days, we'd a' been glad to have the price of a cup o' tea.

GC: A cup ' COLD tea.

EI: Without milk or sugar.

TJ: OR tea!

MP: In a filthy, cracked cup.

EI: We never used to have a cup. We used to have to drink out of a rolled up newspaper.

GC: The best WE could manage was to suck on a piece of damp cloth.

TJ: But you know, we were happy in those days, though we were poor.

MP: Aye. BECAUSE we were poor. My old Dad used to say to me, 'Money doesn't buy you happiness.'

EI: 'E was right. I was happier then and I had NOTHIN'. We used to live in this tiiiny old house, with greaaaaat big holes in the roof.

GC: House? You were lucky to have a HOUSE! We used to live in one room, all hundred and twenty-six of us, no furniture. Half the floor was missing; we were all huddled together in one corner for fear of FALLING!

TJ: You were lucky to have a ROOM! *We* used to have to live in a corridor!

MP: Ohhhh we used to DREAM of livin' in a corridor! Woulda' been a palace to us. We used to live in an old water tank on a rubbish tip. We got woken up every morning by having a load of rotting fish dumped all over us! House!? Hmph.

EI: Well when I say 'house' it was only a hole in the ground covered by a piece of tarpolin, but it was a house to US.

GC: We were evicted from *our* hole in the ground; we had to go and live in a lake!

TJ: You were lucky to have a LAKE! There were a hundred and sixty of us living in a small shoebox in the middle of the road.

MP: Cardboard box?

TJ: Aye.

MP: You were lucky. We lived for three months in a brown paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six o'clock in the morning, clean the bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down mill for fourteen hours a day week in-week out. When we got home, our Dad would thrash us to sleep with his belt!

GC: Luxury. We used to have to get out of the lake at three o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of hot gravel, go to work at the mill every day for tuppence a month, come home, and Dad would beat us around the head and neck with a broken bottle, if we were LUCKY!

TJ: Well we had it tough. We used to have to get up out of the shoebox at twelve o'clock at night, and LICK the road clean with our tongues. We had half a handful of freezing cold gravel, worked twenty-four hours a day at the mill for fourpence every six years, and when we got home, our Dad would slice us in two with a bread knife.

EI: Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed, (pause for laughter), drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us, and dance about on our graves singing 'Hallelujah.'

MP: But you try and tell the young people today that... and they won't believe ya'.

ALL: Nope, nope..
 
What does "anything is possible with god" have to do with a rich man getting to heaven? Sure god can perform miracles, but that statement has no relation to what Jesus said about rich people. Try again.

I don't need to try again; I merely read what the Bible says. Fortunately I don't have to contend with an ideology which reinforces a confirmation bias, by reading into it instead.


OM
 
A 10 year old with nous will realize that the bible is fiction.

To a degree, yes; but it's also chock full of lessons using parables - as was the case with this particular tale.


OM
 
...the meaning is quite clear, it is impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Except that's not what the Bible says in the original texts.


OM
 
All it means is that you can serve God or serve money and you have to decide which is the more important. If you serve money, you'll have a difficult time reaching heaven. Being rich, in and of itself, is not the problem.

Exactly. If no rich people are going to Heaven, why did God consider David (a very rich king) a man after His own heart?
 
Can a camel pass through the eye of a sewing needle? Yes or no? Even a five year old knows what the answer is, its funny that the two of you dont.

I'm confused why you don't understand metaphors.
 
Not sure I agree. Yes, there can be a sense of fatalism that overcomes poor people. Some of the best organizers, like the Brazilian Paolo Freire, have recognized this and responded, Freire thru his literacy teaching methods. His techniques translated in the US into the terms "consciousness-raising" and "empowerment". The notion was that you individually or allied with others can change things, once you step back and examine your situation critically.

My own history had me poorer than neighbor's, the only guy whose mom had to work, so I had a bit of a taste, experiencing some teasing from more affluent kids, with a $10 raise in rent causing worry from my parents. It did make me more desperate than others to get summer jobs, more embarrassed at our economic situation. But great parents and relatives and amazing teachers did their job well.

There are always a few who can climb out of poverty and move into a higher socio-economic climb. But statistically and historically speaking, most people stayed in the same place as their parents, perhaps a little improvement.

In North America after WW2, a unique opportunity occurred for working people to rise significantly above their parents. Those days, a strong back, a little smarts, and a good union could vault a low worker into the middle class. But this was aberration of history. We are back to more normal economics, where there really isn't much social mobility.

So should we use the 1% of risers as the example and blame the other 99% for their own failures? Or do we set up a society where people are getting a hand up to better themselves?
 
There are always a few who can climb out of poverty and move into a higher socio-economic climb. But statistically and historically speaking, most people stayed in the same place as their parents, perhaps a little improvement.

In North America after WW2, a unique opportunity occurred for working people to rise significantly above their parents. Those days, a strong back, a little smarts, and a good union could vault a low worker into the middle class. But this was aberration of history. We are back to more normal economics, where there really isn't much social mobility.

So should we use the 1% of risers as the example and blame the other 99% for their own failures? Or do we set up a society where people are getting a hand up to better themselves?

The latter.
 
The latter.

And, we've all seen the benefits of doing this. That some (the lower income side of the Right) insist on crapping all over it is a wonder to behold.

Stupid is as stupid does, perhaps.
 
I'm confused why you don't understand metaphors.

It doesnt surprise me at all when you falsely label a direct quote from Jesus as a metaphor just because its inconvenient for you.

Where does he say you can't?


OM

"For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” Luke 18:25

Got any more excuses for your dishonesty?
 
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It doesnt surprise me at all when you falsely label a direct quote from Jesus as a metaphor just because its inconvenient for you.

Yeah, because Jesus never taught His followers with metaphors. :roll:
 
Yeah, because Jesus never taught His followers with metaphors. :roll:

His message on that is pretty clear. If there is another part of the bible where he says a rich man can enter heaven then please show it to me.
 
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His message on that is pretty clear. If there is another part of the bible where he says rich man can enter heaven then please show it to me.

King David was ridiculously rich. God called him “a man after my own heart”. Obviously he’s a rich man in heaven.

The Bible is FULL of metaphors. Jesus isn’t really a lamb, you don’t actually drink Jesus’ blood at communion, we really aren’t sheep and goats, etc. etc. etc.

Not sure why I’m trying. You just like to argue because you hate Christianity and nothing anyone says will make any difference. Happy hating to you.
 
King David was ridiculously rich. God called him “a man after my own heart”. Obviously he’s a rich man in heaven.

The Bible is FULL of metaphors. Jesus isn’t really a lamb, you don’t actually drink Jesus’ blood at communion, we really aren’t sheep and goats, etc. etc. etc.

Not sure why I’m trying. You just like to argue because you hate Christianity and nothing anyone says will make any difference. Happy hating to you.

King David is in the OT, what does Jesus have to do with him? Where does it say he went to heaven?

Are you saying that everything Jesus says is a metaphor? If thats the case then you might as well ignore everything he says since you can chalk it up to being a "metaphor."
 
It doesnt surprise me at all when you falsely label a direct quote from Jesus as a metaphor just because its inconvenient for you.



"For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” Luke 18:25

Got any more excuses for your dishonesty?

Easier but not impossible...many rich people put all their confidence in their riches...that is their security, not God...but it can be done, it is just rare...that is the gist of Jesus' words...
 
It doesnt surprise me at all when you falsely label a direct quote from Jesus as a metaphor just because its inconvenient for you.



"For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” Luke 18:25

Got any more excuses for your dishonesty?

And as I already pointed out, the original texts refer to a degree of difficulty, not an outright "impossibility" - which for some reason you refuse to acknowledge. Confirmation bias, I would suppose.


OM
 
His message on that is pretty clear. If there is another part of the bible where he says a rich man can enter heaven then please show it to me.

Still waiting on the verse which says they can't; because the one you keep pointing to literally doesn't say that. The Bible was intended to be read, not read into.


OM
 
Still waiting on the verse which says they can't; because the one you keep pointing to literally doesn't say that. The Bible was intended to be read, not read into.


OM

You are old enough (I think) to know what is impossible and what is not, so youre just being dishonest if you somehow think thats its possible for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. You arent fooling anybody with your silly logic and wordplay. It's clear you are a very dishonest man.
 
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