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[W:233]Praise The Lord

Re: Praise The Lord

gfm7175 said:
RAMOSS is correct in that the universe might not have been created. It very well could be eternal, and OM agrees with that. I used to argue many months ago that the universe had to have had a beginning, but my past arguments in that area were wrong, and I've changed my position on that.

There is no way to 'show' (prove) religious matters such as any "beginning of the universe" theory. Religion is an open functional system, and as such, it does not and cannot make use of proofs. It instead makes use of supporting evidence.
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The desire (need?) for things to have a 'beginning' may be a weakness in our human cognitive ability. Infinite regression seems to present a paradox of sorts.
 
Re: Praise The Lord

RAMOSS said:
It could be that you indeed did not word your argument precisely, because I was responding to your words...
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Sorry about that. In review, it would certainly appear that I was begging the question.


OM
 
Re: Praise The Lord

zyzygy said:
And he is supposed to be in charge of everything.
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He is. He can intercede when he wants. If he doesn't, that's just part of the divine plan for the Greater Good.

Ironically, when it comes to right wing politics, the concept of "greater good" is deemed Marxist in origin. And Marx was supposed to be a terrible atheist (actually right wing hero/philosopher Ayn Rand was a far more militant atheist).
 
Re: Praise The Lord

Omega Man said:
Sorry about that. In review, it would certainly appear that I was begging the question.


OM
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I find the standard terminology historically is from historically when it was assumed that God created the universe, and people use that historical terminology to 'prove' God. That is why I challenge the standard terminology, because the term 'created' could be 'formed' or it could be 'intentionally made'. Using 'formed' instead of 'created' eliminates that equivocation.
 
Re: Praise The Lord

<alt>doxygen said:
If it's good, Praise the Lord; if it's bad, ?, but the "Lord" never gets any blame.
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In all fairness, they might still "blame the LORD" (in other words, knowing that the LORD is in control), but they might believe that his wisdom is above their own, even though they might not understand why he did it or necessarily be okay with it (at least in the moment).

It's all just a religious mindset believing through faith that the LORD is ultimately in control of all things... Nonbelievers may think that something else is in control, such as doctors or medicine or karma or mother nature or such...
 
Re: Praise The Lord

RAMOSS said:
I find the standard terminology historically is from historically when it was assumed that God created the universe, and people use that historical terminology to 'prove' God. That is why I challenge the standard terminology, because the term 'created' could be 'formed' or it could be 'intentionally made'. Using 'formed' instead of 'created' eliminates that equivocation.
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This is another area where I, based on my incorrect thinking about the universe needing to be created, incorrectly believed that the universe must have been created ex-nihilo. That is most certainly not the case, and you are indeed correct in that the universe could very well have been 'formed' instead of 'created ex-nihilo'.
 
Re: Praise The Lord

gfm7175 said:
This is another area where I, based on my incorrect thinking about the universe needing to be created, incorrectly believed that the universe must have been created ex-nihilo. That is most certainly not the case, and you are indeed correct in that the universe could very well have been 'formed' instead of 'created ex-nihilo'.
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Thank you for admitting that.
 
Re: Praise The Lord

RAMOSS said:
I find the standard terminology historically is from historically when it was assumed that God created the universe, and people use that historical terminology to 'prove' God. That is why I challenge the standard terminology, because the term 'created' could be 'formed' or it could be 'intentionally made'. Using 'formed' instead of 'created' eliminates that equivocation.
Click to expand...

I guess the bigger picture is that IF there is "intelligence" (design) behind the universe - what precisely is capable of said intelligence? I mentioned earlier about things like massive outer planets shielding a hospitable zone, and the seemingly perfect coded language of DNA, and how its all encoded and decoded... and just leaves me scratching my head as to how that evolved out of chaos. For the record, I am not a believer of the God as outlined in the biblical narratives.


OM
 
Re: Praise The Lord

RAMOSS said:
Thank you for admitting that.
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No problem. I was letting my religious views cloud my reasoning on that particular subject matter at the time...
 
Re: Praise The Lord

Omega Man said:
I guess the bigger picture is that IF there is "intelligence" (design) behind the universe - what precisely is capable of said intelligence? I mentioned earlier about things like massive outer planets shielding a hospitable zone, and the seemingly perfect coded language of DNA, and how its all encoded and decoded... and just leaves me scratching my head as to how that evolved out of chaos. For the record, I am not a believer of the God as outlined in the biblical narratives.


OM
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Now, that is the 'fine tuned' argument, which is horribly flawed. And, considering that 99% of all life forms that have existed on earth (that species), are extinct, I think calling 'coded language of dna ' to be perfect to be highly incorrect. In fact, calling DNA a language is a flawed analogy at best.
 
Re: Praise The Lord

gfm7175 said:
In all fairness, they might still "blame the LORD" (in other words, knowing that the LORD is in control), but they might believe that his wisdom is above their own, even though they might not understand why he did it or necessarily be okay with it (at least in the moment).

It's all just a religious mindset believing through faith that the LORD is ultimately in control of all things... Nonbelievers may think that something else is in control, such as doctors or medicine or karma or mother nature or such...
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Yes, though I think to varying degrees. Different denominations and individuals have different perspectives regarding how much control God takes over day to day occurrences at an individual level. Most do seem to think that God has an overall purpose that he's driving towards, but there seems to be disagreement as to just how down in the details God needs to get to accomplish that.

And what if you surviving beyond today would impinge on God's ultimate goals?

I have a friend/ex-coworker who is going through a quite literal medical hell (bad case of this - very bad):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigeminal_neuralgia

His wife is the most hard core (American right wing version) Christian I have ever met. It's interesting to hear her takes on what their family is going through. (I DO pray for them - not sure if God listens to agnostics.)

Non-believers are a mixed bag, too. At any rate, I think blaming or giving credit to something beyond your control is a mistake, though I can see how offloading problems (after doing your best) to fate / God could be healthy in a mental and possibly physical sense.
 
Re: Praise The Lord

Omega Man said:
I guess the bigger picture is that IF there is "intelligence" (design) behind the universe - what precisely is capable of said intelligence?
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This is the million dollar question ;) well, both the if question AND the final question...

Omega Man said:
I mentioned earlier about things like massive outer planets shielding a hospitable zone, and the seemingly perfect coded language of DNA, and how its all encoded and decoded...
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Here, you have supporting evidence for intelligent design. It is not proof of intelligent design, but it could be convincing evidence for some people, myself included.

Omega Man said:
and just leaves me scratching my head as to how that evolved out of chaos.
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Agreed. Me too... I will also add to that supporting evidence that the natural flow of anything seems to be that it starts out with order, and then flows towards chaos, until order is brought back once again, and so on and so forth...

Omega Man said:
For the record, I am not a believer of the God as outlined in the biblical narratives.


OM
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The important part is that you don't strike me as a fundamentalist of any religion, which makes for us being able to find plenty of common ground even though we believe in different religions (unless you're an agnostic; agnosticism towards god(s) is not a religion).
 
Re: Praise The Lord

<alt>doxygen said:
Yes, though I think to varying degrees. Different denominations and individuals have different perspectives regarding how much control God takes over day to day occurrences at an individual level. Most do seem to think that God has an overall purpose that he's driving towards, but there seems to be disagreement as to just how down in the details God needs to get to accomplish that.
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Correct. You and I agree. :)

<alt>doxygen said:
And what if you surviving beyond today would impinge on God's ultimate goals?
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That's an interesting question... I suppose it again depends on the religion/denomination, as said above...

<alt>doxygen said:
I have a friend/ex-coworker who is going through a quite literal medical hell (bad case of this - very bad):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigeminal_neuralgia
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YES!!!!!! A link that was used in a non-fallacious manner!!!!! I get excited when this happens! :)

And yeah, that does sound like quite the medical hell to go through... :(

<alt>doxygen said:
His wife is the most hard core (American right wing version) Christian I have ever met. It's interesting to hear her takes on what their family is going through. (I DO pray for them - not sure if God listens to agnostics.)
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hahaha, well, from an agnostic point of view, I can see your uncertainty, since you're uncertain of God's existence to begin with... I faithfully believe that God is aware of the thoughts/prayers of the agnostic, and does hear them.

<alt>doxygen said:
Non-believers are a mixed bag, too. At any rate, I think blaming or giving credit to something beyond your control is a mistake, though I can see how offloading problems (after doing your best) to fate / God could be healthy in a mental and possibly physical sense.
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I guess I wouldn't say a mistake; it very well might be though. I do agree that offloading problems can have positive health benefits. I think it could also potentially lead to negative health benefits too... It depends...

Overall, a respectable post. :)
 
Re: Praise The Lord

gfm7175 said:
Correct. You and I agree. :)


That's an interesting question... I suppose it again depends on the religion/denomination, as said above...


YES!!!!!! A link that was used in a non-fallacious manner!!!!! I get excited when this happens! :)

And yeah, that does sound like quite the medical hell to go through... :(


hahaha, well, from an agnostic point of view, I can see your uncertainty, since you're uncertain of God's existence to begin with... I faithfully believe that God is aware of the thoughts/prayers of the agnostic, and does hear them.


I guess I wouldn't say a mistake; it very well might be though. I do agree that offloading problems can have positive health benefits. I think it could also potentially lead to negative health benefits too... It depends...

Overall, a respectable post. :)
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Thanks. Especially for the bolded. I do it because I care about them and it's what they would have me do.
 
Re: Praise The Lord

Timmy, Timmy, your claim of a grasp of knowledge is destroyed by your posts. Close up your tent and slink away.
Tim the plumber said:
Given you lack of understanding of any of the basic facts of history, biology, physical geography, astronomy or logic to name a few I don't think you are in any position to know if somebody else knows anything at all.

To claim that you have a good understanding of the world it is generally good, or at least somewhat likely to work in terms of impressing others, if you could have a basic understanding of the world, such as I would expect a 14 year old to have. You don't.
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Re: Praise The Lord

gfm7175 said:
RAMOSS is correct in that the universe might not have been created. It very well could be eternal, and OM agrees with that. I used to argue many months ago that the universe had to have had a beginning, but my past arguments in that area were wrong, and I've changed my position on that.
Click to expand...

What was the argument that changed your thinking on that? If it came from Ramoss I would definitely question its veracity, LOL.
 
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Re: Praise The Lord

<alt>doxygen said:
He is. He can intercede when he wants. If he doesn't, that's just part of the divine plan for the Greater Good.

Ironically, when it comes to right wing politics, the concept of "greater good" is deemed Marxist in origin. And Marx was supposed to be a terrible atheist (actually right wing hero/philosopher Ayn Rand was a far more militant atheist).
Click to expand...

The concept of the "greater good" was attributed to God by Christian conservatives long before Marx wet-nursed from his mother.
 
Re: Praise The Lord

smallvoice said:
Timmy, Timmy, your claim of a grasp of knowledge is destroyed by your posts. Close up your tent and slink away.
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Originally Posted by Tim the plumber View Post
Given you lack of understanding of any of the basic facts of history, biology, physical geography, astronomy or logic to name a few I don't think you are in any position to know if somebody else knows anything at all.

To claim that you have a good understanding of the world it is generally good, or at least somewhat likely to work in terms of impressing others, if you could have a basic understanding of the world, such as I would expect a 14 year old to have. You don't.
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Challenge;

What is your opinion of why the British Empire has evaporated so quickly?

If you are utterly unable to answer this why do you think I shold value your ideas about history/politics/economics/technological progress/social change?
 
Re: Praise The Lord

<alt>doxygen said:
If it's good, Praise the Lord; if it's bad, ?, but the "Lord" never gets any blame.
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If it's bad, endure stoically. God is the inscrutable mystery at the heart of all Being; it is as graceless to blame God for the ills of life in the world as it is graceful to show appreciation for the blessings of life in the world. That Mystery is our Host, and to complain of Hospitality is the worst sort of ingratitude there is, a sort of cosmic bad manners. Imagine a soul given the opportunity of embodied life for even a brief span of time but on condition that it must endure such vicissitudes as embodied life is heir to. Do you not think that that opportunity would be seized with joy and come what may?

Here are two poem by Stephen Crane who lived a short life of 29 years during the height of Darwin fever when the indifference of nature received its scientific imprimatur.

A man said to the universe,
'Sir, I exist!'
'However,' replied the universe,
'The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation.'

Stephen Crane

https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-man-34/


In the desert
I saw a creature, naked, bestial,
who, squatting upon the ground,
Held his heart in his hands,
And ate of it.
I said, "Is it good, friend?"
"It is bitter -- bitter," he answered;
"But I like it
Because it is bitter,
And because it is my heart."

Stephen Crane

https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/in-the-desert-2/
 
Re: Praise The Lord

Angel said:
If it's bad, endure stoically. God is the inscrutable mystery at the heart of all Being; it is as graceless to blame God for the ills of life in the world as it is graceful to show appreciation for the blessings of life in the world. That Mystery is our Host, and to complain of Hospitality is the worst sort of ingratitude there is, a sort of cosmic bad manners. Imagine a soul given the opportunity of embodied life for even a brief span of time but on condition that it must endure such vicissitudes as embodied life is heir to. Do you not think that that opportunity would be seized with joy and come what may?

Here are two poem by Stephen Crane who lived a short life of 29 years during the height of Darwin fever when the indifference of nature received its scientific imprimatur.

A man said to the universe,
'Sir, I exist!'
'However,' replied the universe,
'The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation.'

Stephen Crane

https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-man-34/


In the desert
I saw a creature, naked, bestial,
who, squatting upon the ground,
Held his heart in his hands,
And ate of it.
I said, "Is it good, friend?"
"It is bitter -- bitter," he answered;
"But I like it
Because it is bitter,
And because it is my heart."

Stephen Crane

https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/in-the-desert-2/
Click to expand...

Ah, perspectives are infinite in number, but your post offers an interesting one.

All the more interesting because I have been accused of being too stoic at times. It's said that suffering requires a vent, and the stoic are only venting internally. They must eventually explode, or melt from the forces turned inward. Forces, after all, must go somewhere.

Thought provoking, thank you.
 
Re: Praise The Lord

Logicman said:
The concept of the "greater good" was attributed to God by Christian conservatives long before Marx wet-nursed from his mother.
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When did Christians first become conservative? They started out as a very radical lot.

Perhaps you want to reclaim the concept of "greater good" for christianity? Lots of christians (so-called) these days scream "socialist!" when they hear that phrase.
 
Re: Praise The Lord

<alt>doxygen said:
When did Christians first become conservative? They started out as a very radical lot.
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Radical was conservative at that time, compared to the corrupt Pharisees of that day, who took liberties with God's Word - making "God's Word of no avail" (Mark 7:13).
 
Re: Praise The Lord

Logicman said:
Radical was conservative at that time, compared to the corrupt Pharisees of that day, who took liberties with God's Word - making "God's Word of no avail" (Mark 7:13).
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It's Man's word...not God's word....No God (s) have ever been proven to exist. You still haven't done your homework.
 
Re: Praise The Lord

Logicman said:
Radical was conservative at that time, compared to the corrupt Pharisees of that day, who took liberties with God's Word - making "God's Word of no avail" (Mark 7:13).
Click to expand...

So, back then conservative was radical and radical was conservative.

I think we're done here.
 
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