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Thread: What do we replace religion with?[W:675]

  1. #351
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    Re: What do we replace religion with?

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMOSS View Post
    Well, one thing that wrecks 'Christ and Christianity' 10 times more than I ever could is posting false prophecies. That is MUCH more damaging to Christianity.
    You've yet to bust even ONE Messianic prophecy about Jesus in the Gospels. You hem and haw and put out the usual nonsense to try to back up your Dr. No routine, but so far no cigar for you.
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

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    Re: What do we replace religion with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    No, the humanities are about human beings; the sciences are about what can be known about the physical world. Looking to the sciences for our values and ideals is disastrous.


    Your earlier characterization of literature was parodic; this is caricature. Have you read Dostoyevsky, Conrad, Mishima, Faulkner, George Eliot? Have you even read Shakespeare? I mean no offense by these questions but, speaking as one whose life has been devoted to literature and literary pursuits, your characterization of great literature as picture postcards from life is rather ridiculous, I'm sorry to say.
    Shakespeare had amazing insight into the human condition, no question. But it was the insight of an artist. It is breathtakingly beautiful, and I am not trying to devalue it or caricature it at all. It just needs to be understood for what it is, with all its limitations. His portrait and study of characters like Iago, or Lear, or Hamlet, or MacBeth are so beautiful for the same reason that Michaelangelo or DaVinci's or Rafael's portraits are so beautiful: they are a realistic and beautifully artistic study of the real world.

    But that's all they are: artistic studies. Shakespeare gives you no final, concrete answers. You can't build anything on it, even if it's something as poetic sounding as "the arc of life". In fact, he can give you beautiful, articulate expressions of two completely opposing points of view on a certain topic separated by only a few pages. It can get frustrating if you're looking for final answers there. They both sound good when he writes them. But frustratingly, he doesn't tell you which one is right. That was never his goal. It's not about facts, or truth. It's about beauty. Any Shakespeare scholar will you that. Like a painter or photographer, he is just capturing them beautifully in art. He is sublimating them in art. But you are not going to find final answers there. You are going to get yourself very frustrated looking for final answers there.

    (cont'd on next post)

  3. #353
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    Re: What do we replace religion with?

    Your perplexity about human nature is related to your dependence on science for your values. Rorty was the least intelligent of America's four pragmatists; I encourage you to return to James, whose view of life was broader and deeper than Rorty's. Methodology for the sake of methodology is absurdity disguised. As for Berlin, he would seem to change the nature of nature. Therein lies your perplexity, I think. You've read the wrong books. Rorty and Berlin were more perplexed than you.
    You use the word "perplexity" like it's a bad thing. I actually wear it as a badge of pride, because it is the mindset which is required to be open-minded, open to new ideas, entirely new ways of thinking about things. If you think you already know Ultimate Truth, or even have the right mindset to think about it right now, you are not going to be open to anything new. That way lies closed mindedness.

    I know you don't like scientism, and I am not saying that science can ever by itself dictate values. But it gives us a better idea of where we are, and that way we can make decisions a little better. For example, since extensive child psychology studies in the 1960s, it has taught us that sparing the rod does not necessarily spoil the child. In fact, the rod can turn the child into a psychopath. It can also assess the effectiveness of other child discipline techniques to replace corporal punishment. Now those things necessarily can't keep people from still beating their children. But they will need to do so in light of better established facts now thanks to the science. Now is that the Ultimate Truth on child rearing? No. Like all science, it's contingent on further studies, observations, and models.

    As far as the value of being, and always remaining perplexed, let me quote Richard Feynman, the legendary Nobel Prize laureate in physics. He talks of science and the scientific mindset, and its application to ethics and social policy. Allow me to quote at length:

    "The scientist has a lot of experience with ignorance and doubt and uncertainty, and this experience is of very great importance, I think. When a scientist doesn’t know the answer to a problem, he is ignorant. When he has a hunch as to what the result is, he is uncertain. And when he is pretty darn sure of what the result is going to be, he is still in some doubt. We have found it of paramount importance that in order to progress we must recognize our ignorance and leave room for doubt. Scientific knowledge is a body of statements of varying degrees of certainty — some most unsure, some nearly sure, but none absolutely certain.
    Now, we scientists are used to this, and we take it for granted that it is perfectly consistent to be unsure, that it is possible to live and not know. But I don’t know whether everyone realizes this is true. Our freedom to doubt was born out of a struggle against authority in the early days of science. It was a very deep and strong struggle: permit us to question — to doubt — to not be sure. I think that it is important that we do not forget this struggle and thus perhaps lose what we have gained...

    If we take everything into account — not only what the ancients knew, but all of what we know today that they didn't know — then I think that we must frankly admit that we do not know.
    But, in admitting this, we have probably found the open channel.This is not a new idea; this is the idea of the age of reason. This is the philosophy that guided the men who made the democracy that we live under. The idea that no one really knew how to run a government led to the idea that we should arrange a system by which new ideas could be developed, tried out, and tossed out if necessary, with more new ideas brought in — a trial and error system. This method was a result of the fact that science was already showing itself to be a successful venture at the end of the eighteenth century. Even then it was clear to socially minded people that the openness of possibilities was an opportunity, and that doubt and discussion were essential to progress into the unknown. If we want to solve a problem that we have never solved before, we must leave the door to the unknown ajar."
    -Richard Feynman
    Last edited by ataraxia; 11-08-18 at 02:44 PM.

  4. #354
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    Re: What do we replace religion with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    You haven't even read those, Ramoss. And having read them myself, I can attest there is unique information in all of them.
    'Unique information' is not 'proof.'

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    Re: What do we replace religion with?

    There have been no new inspired prophecies written since the book of Revelation and that's a fact or else we would have a Bible, part 2...
    "The kings of the earth take their stand
    And high officials gather together as one
    Against Jehovah and against his anointed one." Psalm 2:2

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    Re: What do we replace religion with?

    Quote Originally Posted by gfm7175 View Post
    He can attest to why he posted it... Maybe he thought that it might come true for whatever reasons. I think his "let's see" was merely him being realistic that it isn't a 100% sure to happen type of thing.

    If the original prophecy claim was "playing it both ways", then that would be a problem, but it wasn't. It took a very specific stance, and it ended up being wrong. It can now be dismissed as false information.
    He can attest. That doesn't matter one bit. There is a repeated pattern of showing up 'prophecies' , and those prophecies fail. That is all that matters. Eod of story.
    Quote Originally Posted by gfm7175 View Post
    There is no such thing as "fields of science". Science does not consist of "fields". It consists of falsifiable theories.

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    Re: What do we replace religion with?

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMOSS View Post
    There is a repeated pattern of showing up 'prophecies' , and those prophecies fail.
    Yes, there is. Many prophecies have failed (been false prophecies). That could even be supporting evidence that Jesus isn't LORD, as you assert. It doesn't prove anything, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMOSS View Post
    That is all that matters. Eod of story.
    Wrong. There's much more to it than that, but your fundamentalism blinds you. You reject prophecies which have come true, such as the birth of Jesus, his life/death, and rising from the dead, among many other prophecies throughout the Bible which came true.

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    Re: What do we replace religion with?

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMOSS View Post
    He can attest. That doesn't matter one bit. There is a repeated pattern of showing up 'prophecies' , and those prophecies fail. That is all that matters. Eod of story.
    His god was wrong yet again!
    I have sex daily, sorry dyslexia.

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    Re: What do we replace religion with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Logician Man View Post
    'Unique information' is not 'proof.'
    Neither is anything you spew out.
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

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    Re: What do we replace religion with?

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMOSS View Post
    He can attest. That doesn't matter one bit. There is a repeated pattern of showing up 'prophecies' , and those prophecies fail. That is all that matters. Eod of story.
    You're full of nonsense. Like I previously noted, you've yet to bust even ONE Messianic prophecy about Jesus in the Gospels. You hem and haw and put out the usual nonsense to try to back up your Dr. No routine, but so far no cigar for you.
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

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