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What do we replace religion with?[W:675]

Re: What do we replace religion with?

Angel said:
So why begrudge those in need of it their crutch? What's it to you how people make their way in life?
And in what way is religion a crime? A crime requires a broken law. What law does religion break?
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Fraud.
 
Re: What do we replace religion with?

ataraxia said:
Yeah, I guess sometimes it’s hard to appreciate things when you walk into the middle of a conversation. My reading recommendation: Start with the philosophy of American pragmatism, especially William James, Charles Sanders Pierce, and John Dewey (especially Dewey on democracy and pragmatism). Then, study a little of the continental philosophers like Ludwig Wittgenstein and Martin Heidegger.

Rorty’s brand of pragmatism and ideas on ethics, science, and democracy is called “Neo-pragmatism”, a blend of Dewey and classical American pragmatism with many postmodern European insights. It makes a lot of sense to me.

For a real overview and context, start with a good history of philosophy course if you have never taken one. This is where I got started:

Great Minds of the Western Intellectual Tradition Philosophy and Intellectual History Audio CDs and Course Guidebook: 9791565853545: Amazon.com: Books
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I don't think I have enough life time left to justify puting that much of it into that.

Also I think I do practice the pragmatis's philosophy mostly. Most of the principals you live by have to be compromised very quickly. Try to avoid doing so is the strongest I can get to.
 
Re: What do we replace religion with?

Originally Posted by Angel View Post
So why begrudge those in need of it their crutch? What's it to you how people make their way in life?
And in what way is religion a crime? A crime requires a broken law. What law does religion break?
Click to expand...

Originally Posted by Tim the plumber View Post
Fraud.
Click to expand...
Angel said:
Did you not understand the question? If not, why do you presume to answer it? The question was what law is broken by faith in God?
Click to expand...

I know holding down an idea in a straight and consistent way is hard for you. That this is very possibly why you have always been unable to get the ideas of science but try harder.

You asked "in what way is religion a crime?".

I answered that. It is fraudualent to obtain money from somebody on a false pretence. That is saying that if you believe (give money to the church) you will go to heaven when there is no evidence to support this is fraudulent.
 
Re: What do we replace religion with?

spud_meister said:
It's a shame Christ most spoke against lying, adultery, unfaithfulness, hypocrisy and greed. What do you think Christ would have to say about a wealthy man who pays women for sex while his third wife is at home with their infant?
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Christ would think that man needs to get right with God just like all sinners who indulge in sin against the will of God.
 
Re: What do we replace religion with?

marke said:
Christ would think that man needs to get right with God just like all sinners who indulge in sin against the will of God.
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hey god do you have a list of things that are against your will?

....................................


god did not answer so what you say seems made up


maybe instead of lists of alleged sins that may just be man made we need to decide on are own if action are right and wrong based on how we feel about them and their effects
 
Re: What do we replace religion with?

Tim the plumber said:
I know holding down an idea in a straight and consistent way is hard for you. That this is very possibly why you have always been unable to get the ideas of science but try harder.

You asked "in what way is religion a crime?".

I answered that. It is fraudualent to obtain money from somebody on a false pretence. That is saying that if you believe (give money to the church) you will go to heaven when there is no evidence to support this is fraudulent.
Click to expand...
I asked what law is broken by religion, and you answered "fraud". Fraud is not a law. Fraud is a crime. You haven't answered the question, nor apparently have you understood it.
 
Re: What do we replace religion with?

Angel said:
That's their business, not yours or Rich2018's. Live and let live.
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We do. Except when they won’t let others live and let live, or when there is fun philosophical debate, like here. :)
 
Re: What do we replace religion with?

Angel said:
I asked what law is broken by religion, and you answered "fraud". Fraud is not a law. Fraud is a crime. You haven't answered the question, nor apparently have you understood it.
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There is no law broken by religion pet we. But the problem appears to be a general effect of closed mindedness and stagnation on society- what we see as a rather dysfunctional feature. It may not be worth the claimed “comfort of faith” or “joy” that it brings.

It’s a little like trying to convince a grown man that Santa does not exist and he can do better not spending all his time writing letters to the North Pole.
 
Re: What do we replace religion with?

Tim the plumber said:
I don't think I have enough life time left to justify puting that much of it into that.

Also I think I do practice the pragmatis's philosophy mostly. Most of the principals you live by have to be compromised very quickly. Try to avoid doing so is the strongest I can get to.
Click to expand...

That may be good enough then. And it’s more than having to compromise your ideals with others. We all often have to compromise our own ideals even for ourselves. We all want to excel at our careers. Yet we want to have lots of family time too. We have to compromise. We want to be perfectly honest all the time, and yet sometimes things require tact, it sometimes even deception. We have to compromise. We want to do work that we love, and yet we want to be able to make lots of money. We have to compromise. Ideals clash, not just in broad social/political contexts, not just among individuals, but even in the heart of the same individual. That is because we all hold more than just one ideal or value. And they often clash irreconcilably. That does not mean that they are not equally legitimate or valuable. It just means that no one guaranteed they should all fit together like piece of a perfect puzzle. The only way to try to fix them together just to juggle and compromise between them, often painfully. How we do so often reflects the culture, personal tastes and values, judgment and consultation with others, and other contingent factors.

Are you British? Because it was one of my other favorite philosophers, an adapted Englishman by the name of Sir Isaiah Berlin, who once asked in one of his essays “who said that the truth, once finally found, should be anything interesting?”.
 
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Re: What do we replace religion with?

Angel said:
I asked what law is broken by religion, and you answered "fraud". Fraud is not a law. Fraud is a crime. You haven't answered the question, nor apparently have you understood it.
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And you wonder why we think you dishonest!
 
Re: What do we replace religion with?

Tim the plumber said:
And you wonder why we think you dishonest!
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I don't wonder about any New Atheist bull cocky. In this recent exchange, once again you misread what you replied to. Please look to this or stop replying to me and bother someone else. Thank you.
 
Re: What do we replace religion with?

Angel said:
I don't wonder about any New Atheist bull cocky. In this recent exchange, once again you misread what you replied to. Please look to this or stop replying to me and bother someone else. Thank you.
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Somehow you think that to specify the law that has been broken you need to specify the exact law as described in the legal reference books. Presumably with the date of it being incorperated into law.

That the crime of assault is obvious and needs no such detailed referance in normal discussion is obvious.

It is thus obvious that the crime of fraud needs no further explaination as to the exact statute in normal discussion. We all know what is meant.

That you decied to go off at such a tangent shows clearly that you fully understand the argument and have been cornered so wish to find the best exit. That means you know you are defending fraud.
 
Re: What do we replace religion with?

Angel said:
I don't wonder about any New Atheist bull cocky. In this recent exchange, once again you misread what you replied to. Please look to this or stop replying to me and bother someone else. Thank you.
Click to expand...

I've noticed this deceitful trait in him, also...
 
Re: What do we replace religion with?

marke said:
Christ would think that man needs to get right with God just like all sinners who indulge in sin against the will of God.
Click to expand...

Christ would be a bit more specific than that:

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
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No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
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You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart
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He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Click to expand...
 
Re: What do we replace religion with?

ataraxia said:
That may be good enough then. And it’s more than having to compromise your ideals with others. We all often have to compromise our own ideals even for ourselves. We all want to excel at our careers. Yet we want to have lots of family time too. We have to compromise. We want to be perfectly honest all the time, and yet sometimes things require tact, it sometimes even deception. We have to compromise. We want to do work that we love, and yet we want to be able to make lots of money. We have to compromise. Ideals clash, not just in broad social/political contexts, not just among individuals, but even in the heart of the same individual. That is because we all hold more than just one ideal or value. And they often clash irreconcilably. That does not mean that they are not equally legitimate or valuable. It just means that no one guaranteed they should all fit together like piece of a perfect puzzle. The only way to try to fix them together just to juggle and compromise between them, often painfully. How we do so often reflects the culture, personal tastes and values, judgment and consultation with others, and other contingent factors.

Are you British? Because it was one of my other favorite philosophers, an adapted Englishman by the name of Sir Isaiah Berlin, who once asked in one of his essays “who said that the truth, once finally found, should be anything interesting?”.
Click to expand...

Is prioritizing the same as compromising in your view?
And does your view allow for the existence of a human nature? Such that, just as we talk about the nature of a wolf or the nature of frog, we may talk about the nature of Man?
If your view does accommodate that which may be designated the nature of Man, then may not values and value-driven choices be prioritized in terms of the nature of Man?
 
Re: What do we replace religion with?

Tim the plumber said:
I know holding down an idea in a straight and consistent way is hard for you. That this is very possibly why you have always been unable to get the ideas of science but try harder.

You asked "in what way is religion a crime?".

I answered that. It is fraudualent to obtain money from somebody on a false pretence. That is saying that if you believe (give money to the church) you will go to heaven when there is no evidence to support this is fraudulent.
Click to expand...

Well, first off, you would have to prove that it is indeed a false pretense. Good luck with that one...

Second off, not all religions collect money from people.

Third off, people give freely towards various religions of their choice. They aren't forced to give anything to any religion.

Fourth off, "believe" and "give money to the church" are not synonymous. That is a false comparison.

Fifth off, there IS evidence. It is all around you. You simply choose not to believe it because you don't find it to be convincing. That is perfectly fine, as that is between you and God... errrr, yourself.
 
Re: What do we replace religion with?

gfm7175 said:
Well, first off, you would have to prove that it is indeed a false pretense. Good luck with that one...

Second off, not all religions collect money from people.

Third off, people give freely towards various religions of their choice. They aren't forced to give anything to any religion.

Fourth off, "believe" and "give money to the church" are not synonymous. That is a false comparison.

Fifth off, there IS evidence. It is all around you. You simply choose not to believe it because you don't find it to be convincing. That is perfectly fine, as that is between you and God... errrr, yourself.
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The level of proof required is beyond reasonable doubt.

If you have a preacher who's personal life is obviously out of line with the teachings he is spouting out then that is significat. Having a gay lover or 10 is not compatable with being a christian.

If you are evaisive in debates such as these, choosing to deflect rather than answer, answering with a picture whenever you are cornered etc that is significant.

Once the court can see that it is plain that the Priest/church/preacher is not a believer in the things he says it is then necessary to show that the preaching etc gets him money. It is not necessary to show that anybody is forced.
 
Re: What do we replace religion with?

Tim the plumber said:
I was watching this video by Jordan Peterson;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyYdGiJpyXk

The gist is that the civilization we have is founded upon Christian principals. And that by abandoning this religion we will create a civilization that simply does not function.

I can see his point. The present philosophy of business is the MBA. In that lying is something you do in your actions all the time. You expect others to do it. You live the life of the slippery slope.

This is, I think the exact opposite of how I, an atheist, wish to live.

The truth and disiple of not cheating or swindling others is what I want my life to be about.

I think we need a new philosophy of progress and responsibilty. Maybe JP is one of the herads of this process of creating such a thing.

Does anybody else have an input into the new philosophy of society?
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I tend to think that religion and gods are something that people will always re-invent. That the concept is something like a part of our nature. Like music and other art, if you put some babies on an island and they managed to grow up without any contact with our world, they would develop forms of art, superstition, and religion/gods. There are even some apes that have been observed acting out what appears to be superstition or worship. Maybe this is slightly OT and I need more coffee...
 
Re: What do we replace religion with?

Tim the plumber said:
I was watching this video by Jordan Peterson;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyYdGiJpyXk

The gist is that the civilization we have is founded upon Christian principals. And that by abandoning this religion we will create a civilization that simply does not function.

I can see his point. The present philosophy of business is the MBA. In that lying is something you do in your actions all the time. You expect others to do it. You live the life of the slippery slope.

This is, I think the exact opposite of how I, an atheist, wish to live.

The truth and disiple of not cheating or swindling others is what I want my life to be about.

I think we need a new philosophy of progress and responsibilty. Maybe JP is one of the herads of this process of creating such a thing.

Does anybody else have an input into the new philosophy of society?
Click to expand...

Well, I would like to put my own philosophy up as an example.

I do not believe in the god of Abraham, or that Jesus was his son. I believe Jesus was a man.

As a man, he changed the world. And laid down an impeccable philosophy.

Later, corrupt men used his philosophy to gain power and dominion over others.

But the philosophy, it's still good.

If you read the Jefferson Bible, he removes everything from the King James, except Jesus philosophy. And there are online versions that include Jeffersons letters. He treats Christ as we would treat Plato and Socrates.

We can keep the holidays as cultural mementos, we can keep the music because it's great music, and we can keep the philosophy of Jesus Christ because it's able to stand on it's own without the need for a divine push to follow it.

Heck, I still pray as a form of meditation. I know no one is listening. But, thinking about what I'm grateful for, and listing those I would like to help is a great way to gain perspective.

We can be Christian without belief in god, or adherence to 2000 year old middle eastern morality.

Instead of going to church to discuss how much we sin, we could go to discuss Jesus' philosophy and how it relates to the modern world. Like public forums of discussion.

We don't have to change our culture, no one has to change anything they don't want to, but there are options for those that do, and one of them is just simply changing your mindset.
 
Re: What do we replace religion with?

<alt>doxygen said:
I tend to think that religion and gods are something that people will always re-invent. That the concept is something like a part of our nature. Like music and other art, if you put some babies on an island and they managed to grow up without any contact with our world, they would develop forms of art, superstition, and religion/gods. There are even some apes that have been observed acting out what appears to be superstition or worship. Maybe this is slightly OT and I need more coffee...
Click to expand...

I think I agree with you.

I am often in the AGW debate. It seems that many on both sides, especially those on the consensus[SUP]TM[/SUP] side rely exclusively upon the level of social authority a person has to determine which argument is best. It is very seldom you can get many of them to actually look at the facts and work out what is happening in a self confident and skeptical of everything way.

That is why I use the term replace religion. We need a new thinking method or structure for those who can only think in this way.
 
Re: What do we replace religion with?

ThoughtEx. said:
Well, I would like to put my own philosophy up as an example.

I do not believe in the god of Abraham, or that Jesus was his son. I believe Jesus was a man.

As a man, he changed the world. And laid down an impeccable philosophy.

Later, corrupt men used his philosophy to gain power and dominion over others.

But the philosophy, it's still good.

If you read the Jefferson Bible, he removes everything from the King James, except Jesus philosophy. And there are online versions that include Jeffersons letters. He treats Christ as we would treat Plato and Socrates.

We can keep the holidays as cultural mementos, we can keep the music because it's great music, and we can keep the philosophy of Jesus Christ because it's able to stand on it's own without the need for a divine push to follow it.

Heck, I still pray as a form of meditation. I know no one is listening. But, thinking about what I'm grateful for, and listing those I would like to help is a great way to gain perspective.

We can be Christian without belief in god, or adherence to 2000 year old middle eastern morality.

Instead of going to church to discuss how much we sin, we could go to discuss Jesus' philosophy and how it relates to the modern world. Like public forums of discussion.

We don't have to change our culture, no one has to change anything they don't want to, but there are options for those that do, and one of them is just simply changing your mindset.
Click to expand...

Please see above.

I actually would put you in the not having a religion or belief in God set of people, by my definition. But then again I think I would for JP.

And I think that is a very reasonable position, as long as you are using the consensus, 21st century, idea of what Jesus's philosophy was. I expect we would disagree as to what it was historically. Which for me is unimportant.
 
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