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Telescopes Meet Archaic Desert Religion

Everyone knows the hell paid by the first man who turned the looking glass up toward the heavens, Galileo: Galileo is convicted of heresy; but how about the really powerful telescopes that we use today? What have they revealed?

Let's talk telescopes of the 20th century. How have they set the silly desert religion back 2000 years?

5 of the World's Largest Telescopes—and Their Discoveries



Most of us who grew up around technology know that the desert dwellers were pretty clueless. Nowhere is this more evident than in their complete lack of understanding of the universe. So, with us now knowing how stars are formed, seeing galaxies collide, millions of stars swallowed whole by black holes, etc., one has to ask. Why on earth does anyone still cling to what was observed by these archaic people?

After all, we can be sure of one thing--whatever the people back then say they saw or experienced, we know for sure that they misinterpreted it completely.

This strikes me as a complete misunderstand of what those desert dwellers were up to--though part of understanding what they were up to is to also understand that perhaps they didn't fully understand what they were up to. The various writings that were compiled into the Bible were not meant as a cosmological treatise. Rather, they explore a different domain of reality than the domain explored by contemporary cosmologists. And while they sometimes made comments that sound cosmological in nature, those comments have to be understood in context. I'm pressed for time so I won't post a long explanation, but the essence of the matter is this: the authors of the texts of the Bible would, I'm fairly sure, agree with contemporary cosmology if they could be somehow educated in its methods and findings. They would also still insist on the truth of what they had written.
 
This strikes me as a complete misunderstand of what those desert dwellers were up to--though part of understanding what they were up to is to also understand that perhaps they didn't fully understand what they were up to. The various writings that were compiled into the Bible were not meant as a cosmological treatise. Rather, they explore a different domain of reality than the domain explored by contemporary cosmologists. And while they sometimes made comments that sound cosmological in nature, those comments have to be understood in context. I'm pressed for time so I won't post a long explanation, but the essence of the matter is this: the authors of the texts of the Bible would, I'm fairly sure, agree with contemporary cosmology if they could be somehow educated in its methods and findings. They would also still insist on the truth of what they had written.

I believe those who wrote the Bible clearly lived in an era would would find abhorrent today. So, why would I want to follow anything that they wrote as being a road map for living today?

You know who does? Crazy Muslims who blow themselves up.
 
Arrogance as related somehow to modernity. Arrogance has been around forever.
So arrogance has been around forever, and it crops up today in the haughty modernist. What for heaven's sake is the point of your posts?
 
I believe those who wrote the Bible clearly lived in an era would would find abhorrent today. So, why would I want to follow anything that they wrote as being a road map for living today?

You know who does? Crazy Muslims who blow themselves up.

I thought I would make an attempt to answer the bolded question. First, however, I want to acknowledge your concerns. If you asked me who, in today's world, most misunderstands the ancient religious texts, I would answer that it's not atheists, but fundamentalists. I'm not going to try to trace out the genealogy of fundamentalist thought and interpretive apparati--suffice to say it's a fairly recent phenomenon, and bat sh*t crazy, to use an intellectual term.

However, the recent-ness of fundamentalist doctrine should suffice to show practically anyone that the authors of those texts and their audiences did not approach those texts, or the religion they underwrote, as literal. It was well-understood by those ancient peoples that the texts had a history, they were imperfect and incomplete, and written by human beings who had come into contact with a great divine mystery. Some parts were understood as literal history (for example, the Books of Kings--but not the Book of Genesis), but that's about it. The remainder were understood to be the result of human beings with a talent for something largely lost in today's world--the struggle with the juxtaposition of the exterior world and the divine world.

I like to think of the matter in these terms. There is an external, semi-public or quasi-public world, the world that is "out there," apparently distinct from my thoughts, the world in which my body has extension and movement. That external world may or may not be an illusion. Then there is the world "in here," the world in which my thoughts, feelings, judgments, imaginings, etc. exist--the world that they constellate and perhaps constitute. This world, too, may or may not be an illusion. Apparently, neither world is an illusion--they impress as distinct domains that are porous to causation (rock flies through the air and strikes my head, causing me to feel pain, but the pain is not in the external world. I develop a desire to drink water, so I get up, turn on the faucet, and fill a glass--and these are in the external world).

The internal world is just as interesting as the external world. And it may just be that there is something divine, something unusual and mysterious, to be discovered in that internal world. As if, buried under layers of dreams, fears, intuitions, and the incessant chattering of our thoughts, there is a pure light, a divine fire that is in direct contact with a reality that transcends the individuality of the person that I am.

Religious texts are the records of individuals who explored the deep layers of that interior world and then tried to find ways to express what they found there.

Like the records of early explorers, their words are mythological, perhaps exaggerated, imperfect, and mysterious in themselves. This latter point is the great tragedy, as they were interpretted by those who have little talent for exploration of that interior world to have meanings that they do not have. Also, they are susceptible to fraudulent entries--people sensed some advantage in being seen as someone who could explore the interior world, and they just made some stuff up, and it's hard for others to distinguish the two.

I actually think comparatively few people are capable of being genuinely religious. It's a talent, like anything else--cooking, mathematics, music, athletics, etc. Those who lack the ability should be content to live a good life as a good person doing the things they enjoy and do best. And it's certainly downright foolish, as you say, to try to live in the world in which these texts first appeared.
 
I thought I would make an attempt to answer the bolded question. First, however, I want to acknowledge your concerns. If you asked me who, in today's world, most misunderstands the ancient religious texts, I would answer that it's not atheists, but fundamentalists. I'm not going to try to trace out the genealogy of fundamentalist thought and interpretive apparati--suffice to say it's a fairly recent phenomenon, and bat sh*t crazy, to use an intellectual term.

However, the recent-ness of fundamentalist doctrine should suffice to show practically anyone that the authors of those texts and their audiences did not approach those texts, or the religion they underwrote, as literal. It was well-understood by those ancient peoples that the texts had a history, they were imperfect and incomplete, and written by human beings who had come into contact with a great divine mystery. Some parts were understood as literal history (for example, the Books of Kings--but not the Book of Genesis), but that's about it. The remainder were understood to be the result of human beings with a talent for something largely lost in today's world--the struggle with the juxtaposition of the exterior world and the divine world.

I like to think of the matter in these terms. There is an external, semi-public or quasi-public world, the world that is "out there," apparently distinct from my thoughts, the world in which my body has extension and movement. That external world may or may not be an illusion. Then there is the world "in here," the world in which my thoughts, feelings, judgments, imaginings, etc. exist--the world that they constellate and perhaps constitute. This world, too, may or may not be an illusion. Apparently, neither world is an illusion--they impress as distinct domains that are porous to causation (rock flies through the air and strikes my head, causing me to feel pain, but the pain is not in the external world. I develop a desire to drink water, so I get up, turn on the faucet, and fill a glass--and these are in the external world).

The internal world is just as interesting as the external world. And it may just be that there is something divine, something unusual and mysterious, to be discovered in that internal world. As if, buried under layers of dreams, fears, intuitions, and the incessant chattering of our thoughts, there is a pure light, a divine fire that is in direct contact with a reality that transcends the individuality of the person that I am.

Religious texts are the records of individuals who explored the deep layers of that interior world and then tried to find ways to express what they found there.

Like the records of early explorers, their words are mythological, perhaps exaggerated, imperfect, and mysterious in themselves. This latter point is the great tragedy, as they were interpretted by those who have little talent for exploration of that interior world to have meanings that they do not have. Also, they are susceptible to fraudulent entries--people sensed some advantage in being seen as someone who could explore the interior world, and they just made some stuff up, and it's hard for others to distinguish the two.

I actually think comparatively few people are capable of being genuinely religious. It's a talent, like anything else--cooking, mathematics, music, athletics, etc. Those who lack the ability should be content to live a good life as a good person doing the things they enjoy and do best. And it's certainly downright foolish, as you say, to try to live in the world in which these texts first appeared.

Imagining things and making stuff up takes no special talent.
 
So arrogance has been around forever, and it crops up today in the haughty modernist. What for heaven's sake is the point of your posts?

Why are you here, if modern arrogance offends you? There are plenty of caves available to meditate in and become one with ultimate reality. Why do you use the tools of modernity to fight modernity? And as for arrogance, look in the mirror.
 
Why are you here, if modern arrogance offends you? There are plenty of caves available to meditate in and become one with ultimate reality. Why do you use the tools of modernity to fight modernity? And as for arrogance, look in the mirror.
You persistently fail to distinguish arrogance and modernity. These are desperate posts for the sake of posting.
 
You persistently fail to distinguish arrogance and modernity. These are desperate posts for the sake of posting.

You think there is something special about modern arrogance. There is not.
 
It has currency. That makes it special enough. Please curb your contrarianism.

So what? That is because it is modern. Doesn't tell us what is so special about it.
 
It means it is current. Modern is current.
Modern was current in 1914, in 1929, in 1933, in 1941, in 1956, in 1963, in 1974, in 1984, in 1999, and so on. Currency is something different.
 
current
ˈkʌr(ə)nt/Submit
adjective
1.
belonging to the present time; happening or being used or done now.
"keep abreast of current events"

special
ˈspɛʃ(ə)l/Submit
adjective
1.
better, greater, or otherwise different from what is usual.


We can conclude that current is not special. This only applies to those of us who are familiar with the definitions of English words.
 
current
ˈkʌr(ə)nt/Submit
adjective
1.
belonging to the present time; happening or being used or done now.
"keep abreast of current events"

special
ˈspɛʃ(ə)l/Submit
adjective
1.
better, greater, or otherwise different from what is usual.


We can conclude that current is not special. This only applies to those of us who are familiar with the definitions of English words.
You aren't even following the conversation you join. Contrary to your intention, your post merely repeats the misunderstanding of your friend devildavid.
 
Imagining things and making stuff up takes no special talent.

I don't think at least some of those authors are imagining things and making stuff up, as you say...any more than mathematicians or ethicists are doing so. But if I am right in my views, that's not a proposition with which a person who lacks the requisite talent will ever agree--any more than the average metal head will agree that Beethoven's ingenuity in the use of minor fourths in his early string quartets far surpassed Haydn's, or that Blind Lemon Jefferson was technically more masterful on guitar than Robert Johnson, but Johnson was a more soulful singer.

But suppose that, indeed, despite my best judgment after a few decades studying the matter from all sides, I'm incorrect. If religions are, in effect, mere stories, they are the most popular stories around, and have been for thousands of years. We regularly pay people like J.K. Rowling or Joss Whedon millions of dollars for the stories they make up, and honor the likes of Dante Alighieri, William Shakespeare, Leo Tolstoy, Charles Dickens, Emily Bronte, Virginia Wolfe, etc. etc. as among the greatest and most profound talents our species has produced. And their stuff doesn't come anywhere close to the pervasiveness, the emotional persuasiveness, the tenacity, as religions. Ever wonder why the flying spaghetti monster (blessed be he) isn't inspiring people to spend their lives in isolation, or compelling people to spend their afternoons volunteering in soup kitchens, or spending their hard earned money on coats for the poor as winter rolls in? It takes almost impossible--dare I say "superhuman"?--talent to "make up" stories that are as effective and compelling as that.
 
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I don't think at least some of those authors are imagining things and making stuff up, as you say...any more than mathematicians or ethicists are doing so. But if I am right in my views, that's not a proposition with which a person who lacks the requisite talent will ever agree--any more than the average metal head will agree that Beethoven's ingenuity in the use of minor fourths in his early string quartets far surpassed Haydn's, or that Blind Lemon Jefferson was technically more masterful on guitar than Robert Johnson, but Johnson was a more soulful singer.

But suppose that, indeed, despite my best judgment after a few decades studying the matter from all sides, I'm incorrect. If religions are, in effect, mere stories, they are the most popular stories around, and have been for thousands of years. We regularly pay people like J.K. Rowling or Joss Whedon millions of dollars for the stories they make up, and honor the likes of Dante Alighieri, William Shakespeare, Leo Tolstoy, Charles Dickens, Emily Bronte, Virginia Wolfe, etc. etc. as among the greatest and most profound talents our species has produced. And their stuff doesn't come anywhere close to the pervasiveness, the emotional persuasiveness, the tenacity, as religions. Ever wonder why the flying spaghetti monster (blessed be he) isn't inspiring people to spend their lives in isolation, or compelling people to spend their afternoons volunteering in soup kitchens, or spending their hard earned money on coats for the poor as winter rolls in? It takes almost impossible--dare I say "superhuman"?--talent to "make up" stories that are as effective and compelling as that.

Math and ethics were made up by humankind.

Making up stories and conning people is very easy for those with the right skill set. It has been happening for the entirety of human history. Adolf Hitler comes to mind. Given the right conditions, people will be compelled to do all manner of things, some good, some bad. 9/11 is a more recent example.
 
Math and ethics were made up by humankind.

Making up stories and conning people is very easy for those with the right skill set. It has been happening for the entirety of human history. Adolf Hitler comes to mind. Given the right conditions, people will be compelled to do all manner of things, some good, some bad. 9/11 is a more recent example.

I don't think math or ethics were made up.

But anyway, yes, you are correct. Religion has been used to manipulate people into doing, or supporting, all sorts of horrible things. This is one reason I say that fairly few people are capable of being actually religious.
 
I don't think math or ethics were made up.

But anyway, yes, you are correct. Religion has been used to manipulate people into doing, or supporting, all sorts of horrible things. This is one reason I say that fairly few people are capable of being actually religious.

Of course math and ethics were made up. They weren't discovered. They are a product of the human brain.

Manipulating people is an ancient art, and religion is not the only thing used. The idea that there is a right way to be religious is your opinion. How does anyone determine what this right way is?
 
Of course math and ethics were made up. They weren't discovered. They are a product of the human brain.

Hmmm...do you think that, for an alien, 2+2=5?

Manipulating people is an ancient art, and religion is not the only thing used. The idea that there is a right way to be religious is your opinion. How does anyone determine what this right way is?

Oh, I don't know that there's a single right way to be religious, any more than there's a single right way to be just about anything else. However, I know there are wrong ways to be religious--if you hurt people because of your religion, ask (or demand) money in exchange for spiritual instruction, aren't an honorable and trustworthy person, and don't take it seriously every moment of your life (if, for example, you are a believer on Sundays, and not on other days), then those are all wrong ways to go about it. Also, if you cannot laugh and have a good time, and are not helpful to others, those are wrong ways to go about it.
 
Hmmm...do you think that, for an alien, 2+2=5?



Oh, I don't know that there's a single right way to be religious, any more than there's a single right way to be just about anything else. However, I know there are wrong ways to be religious--if you hurt people because of your religion, ask (or demand) money in exchange for spiritual instruction, aren't an honorable and trustworthy person, and don't take it seriously every moment of your life (if, for example, you are a believer on Sundays, and not on other days), then those are all wrong ways to go about it. Also, if you cannot laugh and have a good time, and are not helpful to others, those are wrong ways to go about it.

For an alien, math is whatever the alien says it is.

You can't possibly know wrong or right ways to be religious. You can only use your subjective judgement.
 
For an alien, math is whatever the alien says it is.

You can't possibly know wrong or right ways to be religious. You can only use your subjective judgement.

If aliens came to the Earth, and said they came here because they wanted to see the place where their god flooded everyone except that old guy with the boat to death, I'd probably believe.


...in aliens. :lol:
 
For an alien, math is whatever the alien says it is.

Seems false to me. The alien may, of course, use different symbols to represent mathematical concepts, and may even explain those concepts differently, or may even be ignorant of them entirely in the way that grasshoppers and mice probably are. But if you go to the alien's planet and get two stones in one hand, and two stones in the other, and dump the contents of both hands in a bag, there will still be four stones in the bag, not five or three or any other number. And some intelligent species of extraterrestrial will understand that fact, however they may state it.

You can't possibly know wrong or right ways to be religious. You can only use your subjective judgement.

I disagree. There are some people who just have a faculty that allows them to know, though that faculty is not present in everyone (indeed, I suspect fairly few people have it). You should consider the possibility that you lack a sense that some others have. This doesn't mean you're broken, or somehow "less" than they--any more than someone who doesn't detect much difference between 1959 Chateau Latour and 2011 Rancho Zabaco is broken or less, or that someone who is unable to get through medical school is somehow broken or less. Some people make good doctors, others not. Some people make good mathematicians, others not. Some people make good artists, others not. And so on.

Of course, the opposite point is worthy of consideration--namely, that I'm attributing a sense to some people that they just don't have. In this, I have two points to make: first, I have that sense, and my personal experiences with the exercises necessary to develop it have left me with no doubt that I'm correct. To convince me I'm wrong you'd have to convince me I'm wrong about everything else, including even my most basic experiences (like that I'm here now typing on my laptop). Second, in comparing across individuals who do have it, there are some properties of the domain they are able to sense on which they agree...and there are enough of those to conclude that the domain they sense is in fact real, that they share access to that reality, even if it is fantastically different from the everyday reality to which we all share access.
 
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Seems false to me. The alien may, of course, use different symbols to represent mathematical concepts, but if you go to the alien's planet and get two stones in one hand, and two stones in the other, and dump the contents of both hands in a bag, there will still be four stones in the bag, not five or three or any other number.



I disagree. There are some people who just have a faculty that allows them to know, though that faculty is not present in everyone (indeed, I suspect fairly few people have it). You should consider the possibility that you lack a sense that some others have. This doesn't mean you're broken, or somehow "less" than they--any more than someone who doesn't detect much difference between 1959 Chateau Latour and 2011 Rancho Zabaco is broken or less.

Of course, the opposite point is worthy of consideration--namely, that I'm attributing a sense to some people that they just don't have. In this, I have two points to make: first, I have that sense, and my personal experiences with the exercises necessary to develop it have left me with no doubt that I'm correct. To convince me I'm wrong you'd have to convince me I'm wrong about everything else, including even my most basic experiences (like that I'm here now typing on my laptop). Second, in comparing across individuals who do have it, there are some properties of the domain they are able to sense on which they agree...and there are enough of those to conclude that the domain they sense is in fact real, that they share access to that reality, even if it is fantastically different from the everyday reality to which we all share access.

Judging by the absolutely horrible actions of many so-called religious people, be it beheadings, stake burnings, or gleefully attacking those who believe differently, I'd say religion is more of a mob-mentality thing than deep thinking or some innate sense of right and wrong.
 
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