• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Catholic Church - Ain't It Great? [W: 227]

Re: Catholic Church - Ain't It Great?

Fishking said:
Of course.
Click to expand...

Then the church is no more. There are MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of victims of their abuse. Time to start selling some paintings
 
Re: Catholic Church - Ain't It Great?

roughdraft274 said:
Exactly my point. How much money do I need to give to charity until I can rape your child and still have your support? This scandal reaches the very tip top going back decades. Saying that I'm outraged by the behavior of "certain members who abused their trust" completely disregards that this behavior was tacitly approved from the very highest levels for at least decades. You don't get to act as though these are the actions of a few when you have accused priests hiding in the vatican from prosecution and numerous promotions of priests accused of either participating in child rape or of hiding child rape. You don't get to make that case. Honestly and truthfully think about this. Think about just the abuse talked about in the pennsylvania case. Think of how many people participated or were aware. And think of how many actually called the police or took actions to stop it. None? Almost none?

Absolutely despicable.
Click to expand...

vegas giants said:
This organization should be stripped of its assets to pay every single victim compensation. I am not only talking about the rapes. I am talking about the beatings and psychological abuse that was heaped on MILLIONS. They deserve to be compensated. Do you agree?
Click to expand...

roughdraft274 said:
Are you a member of the church?
Click to expand...

vegas giants said:
Should EVERY victim receive just compensation?
Click to expand...
I was baptized, confirmed, raised and educated (through high school) Roman Catholic, but have since become what used to be called a "lapsed Catholic," meaning I no longer participate in the rituals and sacraments. Nevertheless, I identify as a Roman Catholic to whatever extent organized religion is part of one's identity.

Now, I would like to carry on with this discussion, but it is very difficult to discuss anything with anger and hatred. If you can contain your animus, I'm your man for discussion; if not, then you are free to vent your spleen against the Church. It's no sweat off my brow.

ThoughtIsFree has made a cogent point and I'll reply to him.

To roughdraft274 I would only point out that covering-up is not "tacit approval." Nowhere in any of the teachings of the Church is pedophilia approved; to infer otherwise is just a reflection of your animus.

And to answer vegas giants' question: of course, if any of these allegations are verified in a court of law, the victims ought to be compensated, as monetary compensation is the only means we have as a secular society to find some semblance of justice in these moral transgressions.
 
Last edited:
Re: Catholic Church - Ain't It Great?

Angel said:
I was baptized, confirmed, raised and educated (through high school) Roman Catholic, but have since become what used to be called a "lapsed Catholic," meaning I no longer participate in the rituals and sacraments. Nevertheless, I identify as a Roman Catholic to whatever extent organized religion is part of one's identity.

Now, I would like to carry on with this discussion, but it is very difficult to discuss anything with anger and hatred. If you can contain your animus, I'm your man for discussion; if not, then you are free to vent your spleen against the Church. It's no sweat off my brow.

ThoughtIsFree has made a cogent point and I'll reply to him.

To roughdraft274 I would only point out that covering-up is not "tacit approval." Nowhere in any of the teachings of the Church is pedophilia approved; to infer otherwise is just a reflection of your animus.
Click to expand...

Covering up actions and not punishing people for actions is tacit approval. Fine if you disagree, but I don't see it any other way. Especially for something that is as obvious as child rape.

Thanks for answering if you are a Catholic. I understand you describe yourself as "lapsed". Do you believe that the Pope has a direct line of communication with god and that his declarations are thereby the same as if god gave them himself? Or do you think the pope is just trying his best and can be wrong in his words/actions while pope?
 
The sleep of reason produces

Tanngrisnir said:
Breaking: this thread isn't about any other organization than the RCC.

Not in the least surprised you'd try and rationalize this all away with a "yeah, but...."
Click to expand...

No, it's actually also about the amazing, perfect silence of the PA law enforcement, the police, the district attorneys, the doctors, nurses, teachers, principals, counselors. & also the victims, their parents, & their relatives. It is beyond belief that no one went to the proper authorities & filed a criminal complaint.

Those questions will be raised in the aftermath of whatever prosecution takes place, no doubt. & someone will get around to asking - there's nothing like a good feeding frenzy to get all the would-be muckraking journalists out from behind their desks & examining the aftermath.

I wonder how many investigations into this cesspool were quietly smothered, out of respect for the church or the state or whatever the excuse was? & how do those people sleep @ night? Do they have nightmares each & every night for the rest of their life? Do they wake with the screams of children in their ears? & so they should.
 
Re: Catholic Church - Ain't It Great?

ThoughtIsFree said:
How do you explain the Catholic Church having so many Priests committing these sex acts against children and even adults? A pedophile picks very young children. The children abused are from all ages and even adults. You have more than just pedophilia going on. Then you have all of the cover up. You can't just say it's sick people and leave it at that. The Church is responsible. What is causing the problem and how are they going to fix the problem or are they?

Seems to me it's to big of a burden for them to acknowledge what all may be causing the problem. The Catholic Church does not condone Gays. Many of the Priests who are having sex with adults are obviously Gay. Did they join the Priesthood to help themselves not be Gay (sinners according to their beliefs) and becoming a Priest didn't stop them from having sex with the same sex. Same with the Priest who is sexually abusing children. Priests are looked at as very special people by Catholics. They are looked at as God like. Is the Catholic Church just unable to see these people are sick and need professional help and have to be kept away from children. In fact they need to pay the price for what they have done or are doing, it's criminal behavior and they are ruing peoples lives. The Church has and is protecting them. Why? I think the Church feels they are to special to prosecute and they forgive them and they feel God is going to guide them in the right direction. Of course I'm sure they are protecting the Catholic image too and also all of their money.

This is truly a sad situation and has to stop. I have no idea how this will stop from what I know of the Catholic Church. Devote followers who are brainwashed.
Click to expand...

ThoughtIsFree said:
They teach Catholics that sex is something just to happen between a man and woman who are married. They teach being homosexual is a sin. They teach contraception is wrong. They teach abortion is wrong. They teach masturbation is wrong. The Catholic Church's teachings about sex is very strict. This kind of strict teaching can lead to all kinds of problems, we're seeing those problems in the Priests that are sexually abusing children and adults. Also they don't let their Priests have sex or marry. They put a Priest way up on a pedestal. All of this is leading to the problems they have and are experiencing. Also the Church not wanting to take a look at what's really causing the issues. It's them and their beliefs.
Click to expand...

There's something in what you say. The Church's teaching is restrictive and repressive in the matter of sex. Most, if not all, of these issues are a matter of doctrine and are not likely to be changed. The key to understanding the doctrines, if you're interested in understanding the doctrines, is to understand that the Church is chiefly concerned, or should be chiefly concerned, with the spiritual nature of man, and views his physical nature (as a "Fallen" creature of God) as continually at odds with his spiritual nature. For the Church to revise its doctrines on sex would take a major revolution, and I don't see it happening.

I should add on a personal note that my drift away from practicing my Roman Catholicism probably stemmed from my inability to conform personally to its restrictive doctrines on sex. But that falling away is between me and God. I still consider myself a Roman Catholic, but of the "lapsed" variety.
 
Re: Catholic Church - Ain't It Great?

roughdraft274 said:
Covering up actions and not punishing people for actions is tacit approval. Fine if you disagree, but I don't see it any other way. Especially for something that is as obvious as child rape.

Thanks for answering if you are a Catholic. I understand you describe yourself as "lapsed". Do you believe that the Pope has a direct line of communication with god and that his declarations are thereby the same as if god gave them himself? Or do you think the pope is just trying his best and can be wrong in his words/actions while pope?
Click to expand...

I think the Pope is "trying his best," following his conscience and hewing to the doctrines of the Church as he inherits them and as he as an ordained priest has sworn an oath to uphold. His "infallibility" is one of those doctrines. I also presume that he has or has had a religious experience of some deep kind that informs his conscientious decisions.
 
Last edited:
Re: Catholic Church - Ain't It Great?

Angel said:
I think the Pope is "trying his best," following his conscience and hewing to the doctrines of the Church as he inherits them and as he as an ordained priest has sworn an oath to uphold. His "infallibility" is one of those doctrines. I also presume that he has or has had a religious experience of some deep kind that informs his conscientious decisions.
Click to expand...

Does every victim of abuse by this church deserve to be justly compensated?
 
Re: Catholic Church - Ain't It Great?

Angel said:
There's something in what you say. The Church's teaching is restrictive and repressive in the matter of sex. Most, if not all, of these issues are a matter of doctrine and are not likely to be changed. The key to understanding the doctrines, if you're interested in understanding the doctrines, is to understand that the Church is chiefly concerned, or should be chiefly concerned, with the spiritual nature of man, and views his physical nature (as a "Fallen" creature of God) as continually at odds with his spiritual nature. For the Church to revise its doctrines on sex would take a major revolution, and I don't see it happening.

I should add on a personal note that my drift away from practicing my Roman Catholicism probably stemmed from my inability to conform personally to its restrictive doctrines on sex. But that falling away is between me and God. I still consider myself a Roman Catholic, but of the "lapsed" variety.
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for your honesty. I've attended Mass many times and started to join the Church two times. I knew I wasn't going to be able to do what I should so I didn't join. I agree with you that they aren't going to change and I feel this problem with the sexual abuse will continue. Have no idea how this will end for the Church.
 
Re: Catholic Church - Ain't It Great?

This is what happens when your loyalty is more to the organization than it is to justice. We've seen it in business and elsewhere and the church is no different. The CC has had some big problems and will continue to until they show total transparency and real contrition, not lame PR statements and weak apologies. Also, these cases should not have statutes of limitations, IMO and should still be eligible for prosecution.
 
Re: Catholic Church - Ain't It Great?

veritas1 said:
This is what happens when your loyalty is more to the organization than it is to justice. We've seen it in business and elsewhere and the church is no different. The CC has had some big problems and will continue to until they show total transparency and real contrition, not lame PR statements and weak apologies. Also, these cases should not have statutes of limitations, IMO and should still be eligible for prosecution.
Click to expand...
To be sure, priests are "organization men" par excellence, and their allegiance is split between two worlds, the spiritual and the secular. Their sense of Justice too is split, between Divine Justice and Man's Justice. They're caught between a rock and a hard place all day. Locus classicus: The Seal of the Confessional. A murderer confesses and repents, and the priest is duty-bound on pain of excommunication to keep the confession confidential.
 
Re: Catholic Church - Ain't It Great?

Angel said:
To be sure, priests are "organization men" par excellence, and their allegiance is split between two worlds, the spiritual and the secular. Their sense of Justice too is split, between Divine Justice and Man's Justice. They're caught between a rock and a hard place all day. Locus classicus: The Seal of the Confessional. A murderer confesses and repents, and the priest is duty-bound on pain of excommunication to keep the confession confidential.
Click to expand...

That may be but I'm talking strictly about those who have abused children or others and been protected by higher ups. Looking out for the Church is not doing God's will in that case. In fact, you can argue that by doing this and having it discovered, the church is greatly injured.
 
Re: Catholic Church - Ain't It Great?

Angel said:
I was baptized, confirmed, raised and educated (through high school) Roman Catholic, but have since become what used to be called a "lapsed Catholic," meaning I no longer participate in the rituals and sacraments. Nevertheless, I identify as a Roman Catholic to whatever extent organized religion is part of one's identity.

Now, I would like to carry on with this discussion, but it is very difficult to discuss anything with anger and hatred. If you can contain your animus, I'm your man for discussion; if not, then you are free to vent your spleen against the Church. It's no sweat off my brow.

ThoughtIsFree has made a cogent point and I'll reply to him.

To roughdraft274 I would only point out that covering-up is not "tacit approval." Nowhere in any of the teachings of the Church is pedophilia approved; to infer otherwise is just a reflection of your animus.

And to answer vegas giants' question: of course, if any of these allegations are verified in a court of law, the victims ought to be compensated, as monetary compensation is the only means we have as a secular society to find some semblance of justice in these moral transgressions.
Click to expand...

We also should be punishing these criminal acts. Arresting the offenders and putting them on trial and in jail if found guilty. These aren't merely moral transgressions, these are crimes and the criminals who committed are no different than any others who commit the same offenses. Justice is served if these low life scum criminals end up behind bars.
 
Re: Catholic Church - Ain't It Great?

Logicman said:
I'd be amazed if there weren't a whole lot of pedophiles who join the church / priesthood just so they can sexually abuse children. And then they cover for others.

It's not like that's commanded anywhere in scripture, nor is it an indictment of Biblical Christianity.

Like Jesus said, there will be wolves in sheep's clothing.
Click to expand...

Not me, I only joined the Priesthood for the money. :lamo

I can't help but notice that the same people who, if you told them that most terrorists are Muslim, would probably say that "Only a tiny minority of Muslims are radicals" are saying in this case the whole church is full of pedophiles. A little perspective, please. When I was growing up it was learned that the janitor at school was a pedophile. Are all janitors pedophiles? Scoutmasters? Little league coaches?

I knew someone would sooner or later have to troll this topic, not in the current events section mind you, but in the beliefs section.
 
Last edited:
Re: Catholic Church - Ain't It Great?

devildavid said:
We also should be punishing these criminal acts. Arresting the offenders and putting them on trial and in jail if found guilty. These aren't merely moral transgressions, these are crimes and the criminals who committed are no different than any others who commit the same offenses. Justice is served if these low life scum criminals end up behind bars.
Click to expand...
Did you get off? Good. Now, as for your "merely moral transgressions," you reveal in this phraseology a sensibility undernourished in great literature and thought, and it may not be too late to improve an hour with Sophocles or Shakespeare. And as you apparently are not an American, perhaps you'll be surprised to learn that in my country citizens are presumed innocent until proven guilty at trial. Until then such "offenses" as arouse you in your post are merely alleged -- here, by the way, is "merely" used sensibly.
 
Re: Catholic Church - Ain't It Great?

veritas1 said:
That may be but I'm talking strictly about those who have abused children or others and been protected by higher ups. Looking out for the Church is not doing God's will in that case. In fact, you can argue that by doing this and having it discovered, the church is greatly injured.
Click to expand...
I suspect Pope Francis would agree with you. Indeed I can't see any right-thinking fellow or frail disagreeing for that matter. The reason I brought up the two-worlds perspective is that keeping both in focus at one time is problematic; it tends to blur the vision.
 
Re: Catholic Church - Ain't It Great?

it's just me said:
Not me, I only joined the Priesthood for the money. :lamo

I can't help but notice that the same people who, if you told them that most terrorists are Muslim, would probably say that "Only a tiny minority of Muslims are radicals" are saying in this case the whole church is full of pedophiles. A little perspective, please. When I was growing up it was learned that the janitor at school was a pedophile. Are all janitors pedophiles? Scoutmasters? Little league coaches?

I knew someone would sooner or later have to troll this topic, not in the current events section mind you, but in the beliefs section.
Click to expand...

Let the church pay for its sins.....in actual compensation. If nothing is left they will still have their faith and that should carry them thru the day
 
Re: Catholic Church - Ain't It Great?

Angel said:
Did you get off? Good. Now, as for your "merely moral transgressions," you reveal in this phraseology a sensibility undernourished in great literature and thought, and it may not be too late to improve an hour with Sophocles or Shakespeare. And as you apparently are not an American, perhaps you'll be surprised to learn that in my country citizens are presumed innocent until proven guilty at trial. Until then such "offenses" as arouse you in your post are merely alleged -- here, by the way, is "merely" used sensibly.
Click to expand...

You didn't call them "alleged" moral transgressions.
 
Re: Catholic Church - Ain't It Great?

vegas giants said:
Let the church pay for its sins.....in actual compensation. If nothing is left they will still have their faith and that should carry them thru the day
Click to expand...

And let the perpetrators pay in jail time if found guilty.
 
Re: Catholic Church - Ain't It Great?

vegas giants said:
Let the church pay for its sins.....in actual compensation. If nothing is left they will still have their faith and that should carry them thru the day
Click to expand...

Half of the people who perpetrated these atrocities are dead. Do you want to dig them up and kill them again? Or do you just want to take the money that faithful congregations have donated as revenge for something that had nothing to do with you?

The law will decide.
 
Re: Catholic Church - Ain't It Great?

it's just me said:
Half of the people who perpetrated these atrocities are dead. Do you want to dig them up and kill them again? Or do you just want to take the money that faithful congregations have donated as revenge for something that had nothing to do with you?

The law will decide.
Click to expand...

The faithful congregation lose nothing from this. They freely gave to the church. But maybe they will think twice about their faith in that organization and give no more.
 
Re: Catholic Church - Ain't It Great?

it's just me said:
Half of the people who perpetrated these atrocities are dead. Do you want to dig them up and kill them again? Or do you just want to take the money that faithful congregations have donated as revenge for something that had nothing to do with you?

The law will decide.
Click to expand...

I want the CHURCH to pay. The church that supported DECADES of not only sexual abuse but physical and psychological abuse. Doesn't the church believe in penance for their sins? Don't worry....they will still have their faith....but nothing else
 
Re: Catholic Church - Ain't It Great?

vegas giants said:
I want the CHURCH to pay. The church that supported DECADES of not only sexual abuse but physical and psychological abuse. Doesn't the church believe in penance for their sins? Don't worry....they will still have their faith....but nothing else
Click to expand...

Theologically speaking, the people ARE the Church. The church is not a building, an address, or a company.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom