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Thread: Appearance and Reality

  1. #1
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    Appearance and Reality

    Appearance and Reality

    Once, Zhuang Zhou dreamed he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering about, happy with himself and doing as he pleased.
    He didn't know that he was Zhuang Zhou.

    Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Zhuang Zhou.
    But he didn't know if he was Zhuang Zhou who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming that he was Zhuang Zhou.
    Between Zhuang Zhou and the butterfly there must be some distinction!
    This is called the Transformation of Things.

    — Zhuangzi, chapter 2 (Watson translation)


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuangzi_%28book%29



    Those of us who have enjoyed an education in the Humanities recognize at once in the title of this thread a central theme in World Literature, and those of us who have studied Philosophy recognize in it the foundational question of both Eastern and Western traditions, and finally those of us who have studied neither the Humanities in general nor Philosophy in particular have no doubt become acquainted with the theme announced in the thread title by way of personal experience, and in the event have developed their own take on the implied distinction.

    Now I have posted no videos or articles (save the famous Zhuangzi anecdote) in this OP in deference to those who have complained of my posting videos and articles, and instead appeal to members' personal exploration of the thread theme in inviting them to post their beliefs about Appearance and Reality, and in addition, if available, the reasons they hold their beliefs.

    If one reads through the threads in the "Beliefs and Skepticism" forum, one will find frequent use of the term "Reality" -- often to point out someone else's error as regards Reality. So it does not seem an extravagant request to ask members to share with us here what they mean by the term.

    It may indeed be extravagant to ask for their reasons for believing Reality is what they hold it to be, but a belief without a justification is not worth very much after all.

    Naturally I have my own beliefs about Appearance and Reality, but to avoid initial reactionary posts and to encourage considered good-faith posts, I shall postpone making my own beliefs known until the occasion arises in subsequent posts.

    Challenges to beliefs are welcome, inasmuch as only in the testing of beliefs is their merit shown.

    The photo is of Marilyn Monroe, and I think it illustrates the theme of this thread rather well, in that the distortion in the funhouse mirror merely points up the distortion in the life of Norma Jeane Mortenson that led to her untimely death by drug overdose at age 36.


    Please do not quote the entire OP on the first page. Save DP bandwidth.


    Namaste
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    Re: Appearance and Reality

    I'd describe reality as something that is known (experienced), and something that is justifiably believed in a properly basic way, yet it can't be scientifically proven.

    And as a secondary thought to the OP's request to define/explain what "reality" is, this thread seems to be an adequate spot for a slightly altered version of gfm7175's unanswered question if anyone feels up to directly addressing it...

    Why do you trust the reality/reliability of your sensory experience as objective truth but doubt the reality/reliability of your moral experience as objective truth?

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    Re: Appearance and Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by gfm7175 View Post
    I'd describe reality as something that is known (experienced), and something that is justifiably believed in a properly basic way, yet it can't be scientifically proven.

    And as a secondary thought to the OP's request to define/explain what "reality" is, this thread seems to be an adequate spot for a slightly altered version of gfm7175's unanswered question if anyone feels up to directly addressing it...

    Why do you trust the reality/reliability of your sensory experience as objective truth but doubt the reality/reliability of your moral experience as objective truth?
    I think we stumped 'em, gfm.

    Maybe, while we enjoy the chirping of the crickets, you would kindly explain the concept of a properly basic belief for us, yes?
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    Re: Appearance and Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    I think we stumped 'em, gfm.

    Maybe, while we enjoy the chirping of the crickets, you would kindly explain the concept of a properly basic belief for us, yes?
    Well, I'd most certainly be glad to do so!!


    A "properly basic belief" is a belief that is justifiably believed (through experience) in absence of a defeater for holding that belief, even though that belief is not based upon another existing belief, nor can that belief be proven with evidence.

    An example of such a belief would be my belief that I exist in reality; that I am not simply a brain in a vat being stimulated by a mad scientist, or a body lying in the Matrix. My belief is not based upon another belief, nor can I use evidence to prove that I exist in reality, but through my sensory experience (given the reliability of it), I can justifiably believe that I exist in reality (in absence of a defeater for holding that belief).

    This is the very basis of accepting the objectively true existence of "reality" as we know it. This is also why everyone is avoiding directly answering gfm7175's unanswered question presented in post #2 and why people instead choose to act as if properly basic beliefs are philosophical gobbly gook instead of taking them seriously; it directly and powerfully refutes their own worldview and they don't like that.
    Last edited by gfm7175; 08-10-18 at 12:52 PM.

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    Re: Appearance and Reality

    GFM's Unanswered Question
    Quote Originally Posted by gfm7175 View Post
    ...
    Why do you trust the reality/reliability of your sensory experience as objective truth but doubt the reality/reliability of your moral experience as objective truth?
    Why No Answer
    Quote Originally Posted by gfm7175 View Post
    ...This is also why everyone is avoiding directly answering gfm7175's unanswered question presented in post #2 and why people instead choose to act as if properly basic beliefs are philosophical gobbly gook instead of taking them seriously; it directly and powerfully refutes their own worldview and they don't like that.
    I think you've nailed it. Absent any cogent reply, acceptance of the delivrances of Man's perceptual sense on the one hand, and on the other hand rejection of the delivrances of moral sense, this inconsistency makes no sense otherwise than as you account for it.
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    Re: Appearance and Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    ...
    Naturally I have my own beliefs about Appearance and Reality, but to avoid initial reactionary posts and to encourage considered good-faith posts, I shall postpone making my own beliefs known until the occasion arises in subsequent posts....
    Looks like the occasion has arisen.

    Mind is the fundamental reality.
    Reality is fundamentally mental.
    Appearance is reality.
    Reality is appearance.
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    Re: Appearance and Reality

    In other words, without Mind there is no Reality.
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    Re: Appearance and Reality

    In a manner of speaking, Mind is more real than Matter.
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    Re: Appearance and Reality


    4 mins.
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    Re: Appearance and Reality

    Spam spam spam spam......

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