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[W:381:2733***]Darwinism Descending

Re: Darwinism Descending[W:381]

What do you mean by "don't work"? My argument is that circular reasoning is logically valid because the conclusion follows from the predicate(s). The axioms of logic are being followed. The actual truth of the claim is irrelevant here. Another word for circular reasoning is faith. Circular reasoning, in other words, is "having faith in something".

That doesn't make it a good argument, without objective and tangible evidence to confirm things.
 
Re: Darwinism Descending[W:381]

Well. you have just proven you do not know what a logical fallacy is. A logical fallacy is an invalid argument.
Wrong. An invalid argument is simply "one part of the whole" of all the numerous logical fallacies that one could possibly make. An invalid argument is defined as an argument in which the conclusion doesn't follow from the predicate(s). A valid argument, on the other hand, is an argument in which the conclusion follows from the predicate(s).

If your offered definition of a logical fallacy was true, then there would only be one single logical fallacy out there for people to make. A logical fallacy is, instead, an error of logic.

now, since I was not using the validity of my memories as an argument, your attempting to bring it into the subject matter makes it a straw man.
Again, you misuse the term straw man. A straw man argument involves constructing a misrepresented/distorted version of the opponent's argument and attacking that argument instead of the opponent's actual argument. I have not done that; I have only ever responded to your assertions directly. I used the validity of memories as further support for my main argument (another example of how we regularly use circular reasoning in a non-fallacious way). I argued that we use our memory to validate our memory, similar to how we use our reasoning skills to validate our reasoning skills.

None of my arguments have anything to do with the validity of my memory.
Strawman Fallacy. I never asserted that they did. I used the validity of memory example as support for my arguments.

That resolves your claims for a 'paradox',.. but bring into the logical fallacy of 'red herring'.
No, it doesn't. Your paradox is as follows:
1) Circular reasoning is ALWAYS fallacious.
2) Circular reasoning is NOT always fallacious.

You have yet to completely and utterly discard one of these two arguments.

Also, you seem to not know what a red herring actually is. The Red Herring Fallacy is when someone attempts to redirect argumentation with the intent to abandon their original argument.

I have never abandoned my original argument and stand behind it as fully as I ever have.

All else flows from that fact you are misusing terms.
Inversion Fallacy. You are the one who is misusing terms, as I have supported all throughout this response.
 
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Re: Darwinism Descending[W:381]

That doesn't make it a good argument, without objective and tangible evidence to confirm things.

What do you mean by "good argument"?

My argument from the start has always been that circular reasoning is not always fallacious. I'm not speaking about whether any particular circular argument is true or false, but merely speaking about the truth that it is a logically valid form of reasoning. It is quite literally what "having faith" is. There is nothing fallacious about having faith in something. Trying to prove that faith, however, IS fallacious.
 
Re: Darwinism Descending[W:381]

What do you mean by "don't work"? My argument is that circular reasoning is logically valid because the conclusion follows from the predicate(s). The axioms of logic are being followed. The actual truth of the claim is irrelevant here. Another word for circular reasoning is faith. Circular reasoning, in other words, is "having faith in something".

Which is why that makes it not a logical argument.

Logically it is impossible for x to justify x.

You have to have some other evidence from the real world to justify it. Or you are talking gibberish. That's just how it is. Wanting it to be different will not change it. Unlucky. Grow up.
 
Re: Darwinism Descending[W:381]

Which is why that makes it not a logical argument.
How so? Circular reasoning follows the axioms of logic. The conclusion follows from the predicate (and is supported by the Proof of Identity). How is that NOT a valid argument? You seem to deny Logic...

Logically it is impossible for x to justify x.
The Proof of Identity justifies it. The Proof of Identity is [If X, Then X]. I have defined my online message board identity as gfm7175. So, if that is my identity, then that is my identity. However, trying to justify (prove) circular reasoning [X, therefore X] [gfm7175 is a white male, therefore gfm7175 is a white male] is committing the Circular Argument Fallacy. Circular reasoning is synonymous with faith. We ALL have faith in one thing or another. We ALL make use of faith, and we all are perfectly reasonable and logical in doing so. Faith follows the axioms of logic.

You have to have some other evidence from the real world to justify it.
Evidence doesn't "justify" anything... Evidence is not proof. Those words are not synonymous.

Define "real world".

...deleted 'gibberish' mantra... deleted 'denying reality' mantra... deleted ad hominem...
Try substantive reasoning next time.
 
Re: Darwinism Descending[W:381]

Define "real world".

Let's see if I can help.

He uses "real world" much the same as you are using "facts" in this context. The difference would be that "real world" refers to facts agreed on by enough people that they are generally unquestioned (water is wet), while you seem to be using "facts" as simply things the people taking part in a debate agree on.
 
Re: Darwinism Descending[W:381]

Let's see if I can help.

He uses "real world" much the same as you are using "facts" in this context. The difference would be that "real world" refers to facts agreed on by enough people that they are generally unquestioned (water is wet), while you seem to be using "facts" as simply things the people taking part in a debate agree on.

Yes, many people have many seemingly shared experiences of certain particular things. This can, in a way, lead to a "consensus" concerning certain aspects of reality. However, that is not an all-inclusive definition of reality, and it may not even be a true one, to boot. This is, in part, because what we observe may not necessarily be "what is". That is what makes "illusions" possible. Also, observations involve interpretation. That leads to the question "what is real"? "What is reality?" Well, we each experience the world in different ways, and we each interpret the world differently according to those experiences. This then becomes our own personal "model of the universe" and how it works. For each of us, this is what is "real", what "reality" is.

That's why I asked him to define "real world"... because it is much more complex than what he is making it out to be.
 
Re: Darwinism Descending[W:381]

Yes, many people have many seemingly shared experiences of certain particular things. This can, in a way, lead to a "consensus" concerning certain aspects of reality. However, that is not an all-inclusive definition of reality, and it may not even be a true one, to boot. This is, in part, because what we observe may not necessarily be "what is". That is what makes "illusions" possible. Also, observations involve interpretation. That leads to the question "what is real"? "What is reality?" Well, we each experience the world in different ways, and we each interpret the world differently according to those experiences. This then becomes our own personal "model of the universe" and how it works. For each of us, this is what is "real", what "reality" is.

That's why I asked him to define "real world"... because it is much more complex than what he is making it out to be.

I don't disagree with that. This is why I think agreeing to the definitions used in a debate is a necessary prerequisite to having a debate.

In my opinion, "reality", like "facts" are things that fit into equations (or discussions) as Known Variables. They are very useful because once agreed on, we can proceed to attempt solving for variables that remain unknown/disagreed on or about. Of course, it's always possible that those "facts" (known variables) can turn out to be in error.
 
Re: Darwinism Descending[W:381]

I don't disagree with that. This is why I think agreeing to the definitions used in a debate is a necessary prerequisite to having a debate.
Very true! One needs to be able to define the words which they are making use of, otherwise it doesn't make for productive debate. For instance, Tim telling me to "grow up" when I ask him for his definition of "real world" doesn't make for productive debate. I can't discuss "real world" with him if I don't even understand his definition of the term. My guess, judging by his ad hominem attack towards me, is that he uses that particular term as a buzzword, thus making any argument he makes based off of that buzzword a void argument.

In my opinion, "reality", like "facts" are things that fit into equations (or discussions) as Known Variables. They are very useful because once agreed on, we can proceed to attempt solving for variables that remain unknown/disagreed on or about.
Yup, that's exactly how facts work. They are shorthand predicate accepted by all parties. If all parties agree on something, it need not be "hashed over". Facts are useful for speeding up dialogue. However, if a single person does not agree on a 'fact', then that 'fact' returns to being an argument. It is no longer a fact.

Even something such as "God is real" may or may not be a fact. Between Angel and I, that is a fact. Between you and I, that is NOT a fact. You and I would have to "hash over" that argument, while Angel and I can instantly move beyond that argument because we both accept it as a fact. That's how facts actually work. They are not proofs, nor are they universal truths. --- I see so many people misuse the word 'fact' that it drives me crazy; it's a very common misuse. I even used to be one of those people who misused the term until I learned what a fact actually was.

Of course, it's always possible that those "facts" (known variables) can turn out to be in error.
Yup, facts don't even have to be "correct" in order to be facts. "Texas is the largest state in the USA" can be a fact, even though that assertion turns out to be incorrect.

Facts essentially just speed up discussions.
 
Re: Darwinism Descending[W:381]

Very true! One needs to be able to define the words which they are making use of, otherwise it doesn't make for productive debate. For instance, Tim telling me to "grow up" when I ask him for his definition of "real world" doesn't make for productive debate. I can't discuss "real world" with him if I don't even understand his definition of the term. My guess, judging by his ad hominem attack towards me, is that he uses that particular term as a buzzword, thus making any argument he makes based off of that buzzword a void argument.


Yup, that's exactly how facts work. They are shorthand predicate accepted by all parties. If all parties agree on something, it need not be "hashed over". Facts are useful for speeding up dialogue. However, if a single person does not agree on a 'fact', then that 'fact' returns to being an argument. It is no longer a fact.

Even something such as "God is real" may or may not be a fact. Between Angel and I, that is a fact. Between you and I, that is NOT a fact. You and I would have to "hash over" that argument, while Angel and I can instantly move beyond that argument because we both accept it as a fact. That's how facts actually work. They are not proofs, nor are they universal truths. --- I see so many people misuse the word 'fact' that it drives me crazy; it's a very common misuse. I even used to be one of those people who misused the term until I learned what a fact actually was.


Yup, facts don't even have to be "correct" in order to be facts. "Texas is the largest state in the USA" can be a fact, even though that assertion turns out to be incorrect.

Facts essentially just speed up discussions.

Facts are what is true despite belief.

In philosophistry, people pretend that the regression of ignorance does not exist beyond a point that they choose to call, 'I know this' when they really don't know anything.

'God is real' is not a fact.

That you and Angel agree in your belief IS the fact, if I assume that you are both being sincere.

'Shorthand predicates accepted by all parties' are not facts.

That you all agree in your belief IS the fact, if I assume that you are all being sincere.

I can accept a predicate for the sake of argument without accepting it as fact.
 
Re: Darwinism Descending[W:381]

Facts are what is true despite belief.
That's incorrect. You are instead describing what are known as "objective truths", not facts. Objective truths and facts are two completely different things (they are not synonymous with each other). Facts are simply shorthand predicate agreed upon by all parties. Facts are meant to speed up conversation. That's all facts are.

...deleted 'lack of understanding' mantra...

'God is real' is not a fact.
Incorrect. 'God is real' may or may not be a fact in any given circumstance. See the reasoning that I have offered above.

That you and Angel agree in your belief IS the fact, if I assume that you are both being sincere.
Incorrect. That would be known as an objective truth, not a fact.

'Shorthand predicates accepted by all parties' are not facts.
Incorrect. That is precisely what facts are.

...deleted Argument by Repetition...

I can accept a predicate for the sake of argument without accepting it as fact.
Yes, indeed you can. Never said you couldn't...
 
Re: Darwinism Descending[W:381]

That's incorrect. You are instead describing what are known as "objective truths", not facts. Objective truths and facts are two completely different things (they are not synonymous with each other). Facts are simply shorthand predicate agreed upon by all parties. Facts are meant to speed up conversation. That's all facts are.

Incorrect. 'God is real' may or may not be a fact in any given circumstance. See the reasoning that I have offered above.

Incorrect. That would be known as an objective truth, not a fact.

Incorrect. That is precisely what facts are.

Yes, indeed you can. Never said you couldn't...

My point was made, your snarky response was noted. Enjoy.
 
Re: Darwinism Descending[W:381]

My point was made,
Yes, it was. Then, I directly refuted it.

your snarky response was noted.
Not snarky, I just have a "no bull****" kind of attitude when it comes to discussions... I like being direct and getting right to the point... You simply have no counterargument for my refutation of your argument. It shows that you have absolutely NO clue what a fact is or how facts work in discussions...

Namaste.
 
Re: Darwinism Descending[W:381]

Yes, it was. Then, I directly refuted it.


Not snarky, I just have a "no bull****" kind of attitude when it comes to discussions... I like being direct and getting right to the point... You simply have no counterargument for my refutation of your argument. It shows that you have absolutely NO clue what a fact is or how facts work in discussions...


Namaste.

Denial is not refuting. Thank you for your unsupported opinion.
 
Re: Darwinism Descending[W:381]

Denial is not refuting. Thank you for your unsupported opinion.

So, I must always refer to a 'holy link' for "support"?

Just as atheists always ask... "well, who created God"?

Well, what led to the creation of the 'holy link', RAMOSS? ;) It didn't just "pop out of nowhere", now did it? ;)

When you act like one needs to always support their assertions with an outside source, you outright deny philosophy... You outright deny how those sources even 'came into being' in the first place...

I implore you to "seek reason"... hahaha, get it? ;)
 
Re: Darwinism Descending[W:381]

Angel said:

Angel got it I see :)


I seriously am at a loss for how else to reply to this 'denial of philosophy' nonsense...
 
Re: Darwinism Descending[W:381]

So, I must always refer to a 'holy link' for "support"?

Just as atheists always ask... "well, who created God"?

Well, what led to the creation of the 'holy link', RAMOSS? ;) It didn't just "pop out of nowhere", now did it? ;)

When you act like one needs to always support their assertions with an outside source, you outright deny philosophy... You outright deny how those sources even 'came into being' in the first place...

I implore you to "seek reason"... hahaha, get it? ;)

Please, support your claim with something other than unsupported claims.
 
Re: Darwinism Descending[W:381]

Continued denial of philosophy...

Supprort your claim on that, rather than make a wild, and unsupported accusation. Please, support your claim.
 
Re: Darwinism Descending[W:381]

Facts are what is true despite belief.

In philosophistry, people pretend that the regression of ignorance does not exist beyond a point that they choose to call, 'I know this' when they really don't know anything.

'God is real' is not a fact.

That you and Angel agree in your belief IS the fact, if I assume that you are both being sincere.

'Shorthand predicates accepted by all parties' are not facts.

That you all agree in your belief IS the fact, if I assume that you are all being sincere.

I can accept a predicate for the sake of argument without accepting it as fact.

That is also true. Outside of the bubble of philosophical discussion, "alt" facts can get you killed. Ask the hale Bop folks or the Jim Jones followers. Oh wait - they're dead.
 
Re: Darwinism Descending[W:381]

That is also true. Outside of the bubble of philosophical discussion, "alt" facts can get you killed. Ask the hale Bop folks or the Jim Jones followers. Oh wait - they're dead.

Pretending that 'facts' are not things known or proved to be true and then playing word games with 'objective truth' is mendacious but, it is not my concern now.
 
Re: Darwinism Descending[W:381]

Please, support your claim with something other than unsupported claims.

Secularists claim the data all support godless theories of the origin of life and matter. That is not true. Secularist interpretations of data support godless theories of origins, but Christian interpretations of the same data support the creation theory.
 
Re: Darwinism Descending[W:381]

Secularists claim the data all support godless theories of the origin of life and matter. That is not true. Secularist interpretations of data support godless theories of origins, but Christian interpretations of the same data support the creation theory.

That doesn't seem to show any support for anything.
 
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