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The Nature of Reality[W:83]

Re: The Nature of Reality

Just to point a couple things out:

1. What a person reports as veridical about their own mental state is as close as we can get to actually observing their mental state. The correlations on which you rely, if you actually start looking into the evidence in question, are much weaker than is usually supposed.

2. There's no reason to think there's actually a 1:1 correlation between brain states and mental states, or brain events and mental events. There are brain states/events with no apparent accompanying mental event (like when your brain regulates your digestion), and there are mental states/events with no apparent or measurable brain event--if you look at the slides in an fMRI, for example, there are plenty of times when there's no apparent activity going on in the visual cortex, even though the subject was having a visual percept.

The notion that we can hook a person up to a machine and "record" their thoughts has been presented to the general public by science journalists trying to make copy, but it's just not true.

I would like you to back up your point number 2 with an independent source.
 
Re: The Nature of Reality

Yet you would have them magically appear.
They started to appear when I was a child. All of my experience since then has confirmed their existence. They are an empirical fact.
 
Re: The Nature of Reality

I thought I'd point out there are some really good reasons to think this is not the case. If something is physical, it has physical properties, and if it has physical properties, it has all physical properties. That seems to be the concept of what "physical" means in this context. (It's this concept that's at the heart of the debate over why quantum mechanics is so weird). Similarly, if something is mental, it has mental properties--though it need not be the case that it has all mental properties (a judgment need not be accompanied by an emotion, for example).

But physical properties and mental properties are utterly and starkly distinct. How big is your concept of justice--what are its dimensions? How much does it weigh? What is the mass of your contemplation of the pythagorean theorem? Where, exactly, is love located? Doesn't seem like mental objects have properties that are anything like physical properties at all, and hence there's not only no reason to think thoughts are physical, there's good reason to think they aren't. Anyone who claims that thoughts are physical things should address this point.

There are no such thing as mental properties independent of physical properties because the brain is the source of what is called mental. Mental is physical. Love resides in the brain, where all emotions reside, along with like and dislike and hate and indifference.
 
Re: The Nature of Reality

And you seem to think that brains magically produce thoughts. That's what you New Atheists disparage as "magical thinking." Look to it.

No magic involved. It's one thing that brains do through physical means.
 
Re: The Nature of Reality

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
 
Re: The Nature of Reality

You have claimed -- and this is on record in the posts above -- that thoughts are in the brain. But all that is in the brain are neurochemical events in tissue -- no thoughts.

The neurochemical event is the thought.
 
Re: The Nature of Reality

Moderator's Warning:
The snarking and baiting needs to stop. Stick to commenting towards the topic of the thread and leave each other out of it.
 
Re: The Nature of Reality

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
That's not bad. How about this:

Reality is that which exists whether you believe in it or not.
 
Re: The Nature of Reality

Reality and belief have nothing to do with each other.
 
Re: The Nature of Reality

I would like you to back up your point number 2 with an independent source.

What, exactly, do you want? I've already told you how to see for yourself--and it's absurdly easy to do. If you do what I've suggested--that is, just go take a look at slides from an fMRI--you'll be able to make the observation for yourself. That said, see also:

William R. Uttal, Mind and Brain: A Critical Appraisal of Cognitive Neuroscience, Massachusetts: MIT University Press, 2011 (especially the introduction, but the entire book brings up the kinds of issues I've raised..and quite a few that I haven't, like conspicuous lack of replicability even in the same lab by the same group of researchers of widely celebrated findings, etc.)

and

Sally Satel and Scott O. Lilienfeld, Brainwashed: The Seductive Appeal of Mindless Neuroscience, New York: Basic Books, 2013 (this one is probably more accessible than the first, but gives a basic layout of the same issues. Just take a look at how many studies find correlations in the .5-.8 range, for example).

Finally, for a genealogy of how the belief in 1:1 correlation arose, see:

Emily Clark Kelly, "F.W.H. Myers and the Empirical Study of the Mind-Body Problem," in Irreducible Mind, edited by Edward F. Kelly and Emily Clark Kelly, New York: Rowman and Littlefield Publishers, 2007, pp 47-116. (Hint: it didn't arise from any empirical evidence for such a perfect correlation).

Let me be clear about what I'm claiming, because I phrased it the way I did for a reason: right now, there's just no reason to believe in a 1:1 correspondence. That is, there is no evidence that such is the case. It seems to be an article of faith among materialists, because their models of mind basically require it to be the case. That there are brain events/states that lead to no mental event or state should be common knowledge to anyone with a modicum of understanding of neuroscience. The brain is in constant communication with other organs, like the liver, and nothing appears in your mind to the effect of "I'm currently regulating the albumin pathways in the liver." As to the other claim, that there are thoughts with no apparent or measurable brain state or event, again, just go get some slides of fMRIs. There are literally thousands floating around on the internet. Familiarize yourself with the location of the visual cortex, and take a look at how many of them show the visual cortex "lit up." Most don't. Was the person temporarily blind? Perhaps their eyes were closed in some cases, but obviously not all. Then just go look at the plethora of correlation studies published every year. Most show a correlation rate around .75--which means 25 percent of thoughts of a certain type show none of the correlation trumpeted by the authors.

Now, what does this imply? Just what I've said: there's no evidential basis on which to claim a perfect correlation between brain states and mental states. That claim of correlation only falls out of certain kinds of models of the mind, and strangely, belief in those models seems to be at least partly predicated on belief in the perfect correlation between brains states/events and mental states/events. At first glance, the notion that there are thoughts with no measurable brain event or state seems to be the claim that should worry materialists more (and if we can eliminate measurement problems as an explanation, that wouldn't quite sink materialism, but it'd be pretty close). But actually, I think the other claim, that there are brain events/states with no apparent mental event/state is more worrisome given the current state of evidence. We've known since the work of Vernon Mountcastle in the late 1950's that the brain exhibits no organizational differences from one part of the cortex to another. So if the brain is responsible for the mind, it's awfully odd that some brain events generate mental events or states, and others just don't.
 
Re: The Nature of Reality

There are no such thing as mental properties independent of physical properties because the brain is the source of what is called mental. Mental is physical. Love resides in the brain, where all emotions reside, along with like and dislike and hate and indifference.

Obviously circular. You're assuming what you set out to prove. But there's no reason to make such assumption.
 
Re: The Nature of Reality

But it is not just because a person reports something. It is because specifically recorded activity in the brain aligns with thoughts made. Scientists are not just relying on what the person sadi they have other means to verify.

Obviously circular. The "verification" you seem to be talking about is based on other reports. See the resources to which I pointed RAMOSS for more in-depth discussion.

But anyway, you're missing the point. Observing a brain state is not observing a mental state--brains and minds have different properties.

And no, we know which parts of the brain regulate things like digestion.
https://askabiologist.asu.edu/parts-of-the-brain

Um...ok?

And there is no such thing as a visual cortex. Sight is processed in the occipital lobe.

Hmmmm. Really?

Important cortical relationships in this view include the cingular, parietooccipital, and calcarine sulci; the primary visual cortex is located on either bank of the calcine sulcus...

Duane E. Haines, Neuroanatomy in Clinical Context: An Atlas of Structures, Sections, Systems, and Syndromes, Baltimore: Walter Kluwer Health Publishers, 2015.

See also:

Jessica M. Harris and Jason Scott, editors, Visual Cortex: Anatomy, Functions, and Injuries, UK: Nova Science Publishing, 2015.

and

Charles Legendy, Circuits in the Brain: A Model of Shape Processing in the Primary Visual Cortex, New York: Springer Science Media, 2009.

And plenty of other books with chapters or etc. on the visual cortex, or any of the 11,598 papers (according to my university library) published just this year (i.e. since January 1st, 2018) on the visual cortex. Seems awfully strange for neuroscientists to be publishing books and articles on parts of the brain that don't exist. The visual cortex is located at the rear of the occipital lobe, but it is a recognized part of the brain.
 
Re: The Nature of Reality

They started to appear when I was a child. All of my experience since then has confirmed their existence. They are an empirical fact.

That is not the issue. No one is denying thoughts appear. You however wish them to remain magical in how they are created. There is no magic here, the science is clear. Activity in the brain produces thought.
 
Re: The Nature of Reality

Obviously circular. The "verification" you seem to be talking about is based on other reports. See the resources to which I pointed RAMOSS for more in-depth discussion.

But anyway, you're missing the point. Observing a brain state is not observing a mental state--brains and minds have different properties.



Um...ok?



Hmmmm. Really?



Duane E. Haines, Neuroanatomy in Clinical Context: An Atlas of Structures, Sections, Systems, and Syndromes, Baltimore: Walter Kluwer Health Publishers, 2015.

See also:

Jessica M. Harris and Jason Scott, editors, Visual Cortex: Anatomy, Functions, and Injuries, UK: Nova Science Publishing, 2015.

and

Charles Legendy, Circuits in the Brain: A Model of Shape Processing in the Primary Visual Cortex, New York: Springer Science Media, 2009.

And plenty of other books with chapters or etc. on the visual cortex, or any of the 11,598 papers (according to my university library) published just this year (i.e. since January 1st, 2018) on the visual cortex. Seems awfully strange for neuroscientists to be publishing books and articles on parts of the brain that don't exist. The visual cortex is located at the rear of the occipital lobe, but it is a recognized part of the brain.

Being pedantic is really not a clever argument. And that is all you are doing here.
 
Re: The Nature of Reality

What, exactly, do you want? I've already told you how to see for yourself--and it's absurdly easy to do. If you do what I've suggested--that is, just go take a look at slides from an fMRI--you'll be able to make the observation for yourself. That said, see also:

William R. Uttal, Mind and Brain: A Critical Appraisal of Cognitive Neuroscience, Massachusetts: MIT University Press, 2011 (especially the introduction, but the entire book brings up the kinds of issues I've raised..and quite a few that I haven't, like conspicuous lack of replicability even in the same lab by the same group of researchers of widely celebrated findings, etc.)

and

Sally Satel and Scott O. Lilienfeld, Brainwashed: The Seductive Appeal of Mindless Neuroscience, New York: Basic Books, 2013 (this one is probably more accessible than the first, but gives a basic layout of the same issues. Just take a look at how many studies find correlations in the .5-.8 range, for example).

Finally, for a genealogy of how the belief in 1:1 correlation arose, see:

Emily Clark Kelly, "F.W.H. Myers and the Empirical Study of the Mind-Body Problem," in Irreducible Mind, edited by Edward F. Kelly and Emily Clark Kelly, New York: Rowman and Littlefield Publishers, 2007, pp 47-116. (Hint: it didn't arise from any empirical evidence for such a perfect correlation).

Let me be clear about what I'm claiming, because I phrased it the way I did for a reason: right now, there's just no reason to believe in a 1:1 correspondence. That is, there is no evidence that such is the case. It seems to be an article of faith among materialists, because their models of mind basically require it to be the case. That there are brain events/states that lead to no mental event or state should be common knowledge to anyone with a modicum of understanding of neuroscience. The brain is in constant communication with other organs, like the liver, and nothing appears in your mind to the effect of "I'm currently regulating the albumin pathways in the liver." As to the other claim, that there are thoughts with no apparent or measurable brain state or event, again, just go get some slides of fMRIs. There are literally thousands floating around on the internet. Familiarize yourself with the location of the visual cortex, and take a look at how many of them show the visual cortex "lit up." Most don't. Was the person temporarily blind? Perhaps their eyes were closed in some cases, but obviously not all. Then just go look at the plethora of correlation studies published every year. Most show a correlation rate around .75--which means 25 percent of thoughts of a certain type show none of the correlation trumpeted by the authors.

Now, what does this imply? Just what I've said: there's no evidential basis on which to claim a perfect correlation between brain states and mental states. That claim of correlation only falls out of certain kinds of models of the mind, and strangely, belief in those models seems to be at least partly predicated on belief in the perfect correlation between brains states/events and mental states/events. At first glance, the notion that there are thoughts with no measurable brain event or state seems to be the claim that should worry materialists more (and if we can eliminate measurement problems as an explanation, that wouldn't quite sink materialism, but it'd be pretty close). But actually, I think the other claim, that there are brain events/states with no apparent mental event/state is more worrisome given the current state of evidence. We've known since the work of Vernon Mountcastle in the late 1950's that the brain exhibits no organizational differences from one part of the cortex to another. So if the brain is responsible for the mind, it's awfully odd that some brain events generate mental events or states, and others just don't.

And, how do any of those support your thesis? They both basicaly are saying "we got a lot of research to do yet'.
 
Re: The Nature of Reality

Oy!

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink."

Of course there's another old saying that might be invoked here, involving pearls, as I recall, but I'm smoking a fine cigar and petting my cat and enjoy a deep God's-in-His-Heaven-and-all's-right-with-the-world vibe,


Namaste
 
Re: The Nature of Reality

Here's a 4-minute video on Subjective Idealism for members unfamiliar with the basic philosophical concept central to this thread. Enjoy.

 
Re: The Nature of Reality

For a change, why don't you acquaint yourself with the matter on which you pronounce.
Translation: Watch the video essay in post #11 and then comment on the subject.
I assure you, it's a refreshing and edifying experience to know whereof one speaks.
Remember Wittgenstein.

If you find it worth watching, then assuredly it is not.
 
Re: The Nature of Reality

Joe Friday, Jack Webb, Pee Wee Herman, Paul Reuben, Richard Dawkins....




In other words, why do you need to know what you're talking about when it takes a little time, effort, and thought. Gotcha!



Namaste
Why worry about it when it is obvious that you don't know what you are talking about, just repeating the thoughts of others?

A waste of time.
 
Re: The Nature of Reality

Two

One-Minute Videos

Presenting Two More Views

On the Nature of Reality






Posted in Good Faith

For the Enjoyment and Edification

Of Fellow Journeyers



Namaste



...






Actually posted as another diversion from the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about. It is the only reply that you can make.
 
Re: The Nature of Reality

I guess I would say that I don't even think that about materialism (i.e. that it's as silly as it gets), even though I am convinced that materialism is almost certainly false. I hope you continue your philosophical education (you've clearly benefited--if that's the right word!--from some education in philosophy), and perhaps one day realize that the lesson of philosophy is this: intellectual humility. Socrates is going to have the last laugh on all of us, I'm afraid: human knowledge and wisdom is very frail indeed. Plenty of smart people are idealists (just as plenty of smart people are materialists), so I don't see any slam-dunk argument actually going through any time soon.

And you do realize that philosophy is merely the presenting of one set of ideas with the goal of convincing others of just how wonderful they are, especially since they lack truth.
 
Re: The Nature of Reality

That will be right after you show me a thought in a brain.
Physicalism Fizzles.

In some brains, not saying who but you can guess, no actual thoughts exist. This brain merely parrots the thoughts of others and proclaims it as a victory.
 
Re: The Nature of Reality

A necessary condition is not the thing itself. You cannot show anything like thought in a brain.
Physicalist Fizz.

Yet you cannot show that there is not this activity. Denial is not proof.
 
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