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"Pi" and "e" encoded into Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1?!?!

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gfm7175

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To me, the "encoding" in these two Bible verses of these two intrinsic constants in the universe, while there may not be any significance to it, is just too "odd" to pass over without giving it any real thought, especially when one takes a look at all the other instances of these sort of "oddities" that are scattered throughout the Bible, and odd facts such as "all languages flow towards Jerusalem" in terms of reading them...

For Genesis 1:1, if you use Hebrew and take the number of letters times the product of the letters and divide that number by the number of words times the product of the words, you will get a result of 3.1416 x 10^17, and 3.1416 is equivalent to Pi rounded to four decimal places.

For John 1:1, if you use Greek and do the same exact calculation, you will get a result of 2.7183 x 10^40, and 2.7183 is equivalent to e rounded to four decimal places.


Just something to think about...
 
The most probable explanation for the Bible's inaccuracy is that this verse was written by humans using approximations. This seems especially likely given that "Hebrews were not an especially technological society; when Solomon built his Temple he had to hire Phoenecian artisans for the really technical work".[9] The real reason the bowl's dimensions are mentioned is to emphasize that it's big (hence why "it contained two thousand baths" is included), not to perfectly describe it in every detail. Pomp is a more common characteristic of the Bible than precision.

Is the circumference approximate? "30 cubits" in circumference may really mean "30±0.5 cubits". This gives a diameter of (30±0.5)/pi or 9.55±0.159 cubits (to three significant figures), meaning anywhere between 9.39 and 9.71 cubits. This does not include a 10 cubit diameter, and so cannot resolve the issue.

Is the diameter approximate? "10 cubits" in diameter may really mean "10±0.5 cubits". This gives a circumference of π*10±0.5 or 31.4±1.57 cubits (to three significant figures), meaning anywhere between 29.8 and 33.0 cubits. This does include a 30 cubit circumference, which may resolve the issue.

The major issue for this apologism is that, if it's accepted that the Bible is human-written and imprecise at best, then the basis disappears for using the Bible as a guide to the age of the earth, "medicine", or anything requiring accuracy. How can we know if the Bible is just emphasizing something for pomp purposes or speaking literal truth?

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_scientific_errors
 
gfm7175 said:
To me, the "encoding" in these two Bible verses of these two intrinsic constants in the universe, while there may not be any significance to it, is just too "odd" to pass over without giving it any real thought, especially when one takes a look at all the other instances of these sort of "oddities" that are scattered throughout the Bible, and odd facts such as "all languages flow towards Jerusalem" in terms of reading them...

For Genesis 1:1, if you use Hebrew and take the number of letters times the product of the letters and divide that number by the number of words times the product of the words, you will get a result of 3.1416 x 10^17, and 3.1416 is equivalent to Pi rounded to four decimal places.

For John 1:1, if you use Greek and do the same exact calculation, you will get a result of 2.7183 x 10^40, and 2.7183 is equivalent to e rounded to four decimal places.


Just something to think about...
Click to expand...

Please show that this is true. Can you back up your claim?
 
gfm7175 said:
Just something to think about...
Click to expand...
I guarantee that you could take literally any book ever written and come up with some kind of combination of word counts which happens to match some existing pattern or other. I'm pretty sure I've seen examples of similar numerology claims about the Bible being repeated with entirely mundane books. I don't see any reason for it to mean anything of significance.
 
Even when you translate the text into English, interesting word pairings occur. For example, consider Genesis 31:28: “And hast not suffered me to kiss my sons and my daughters? Thou hast now done foolishly in so doing.” If we start with the “r” in daughters and take every 4th letter, we get r-o-s-w-e-l-l. Now start with the “u” in “thou” and take every 12th letter: “u-f-o”. Evidence of aliens among us, perhaps.



Not convinced? It gets better. Michael Drosnin, the original popularizer of this work, has examined the King James Bible for ELS’s. He found pairings like “Bill Clinton” linked with “President”, “Hitler” linked with “Nazi”, and “Kennedy” linked with Dallas. More than coincidence? Drosnin thinks so. His book “The Bible Code” came out a couple of years ago and is still doing well. Drosnin sold the rights to Hollywood shortly after publication: “The Omega Code” is based on it.



Unfortunately for Drosnin and others easily amazed, there is nothing astonishing about it. Using a computer (as he did), you can find similar results in just about any large text you care to try. Moby Dick, for example, contains interconnected ELS’s of “Kennedy”, “head”, “shot”, and “had been so killed”. War and Peace predicts the Chicago Bull’s miraculous 1998 NBA championship by interconnecting “Jordan”, “Chicago”, and “Bulls”. I’m even running a code analyzer on this article as I type it. So far I’ve found “Coke adds life” and “Love Boat hit show”.

Bible Codes
 
HonestJoe said:
I guarantee that you could take literally any book ever written and come up with some kind of combination of word counts which happens to match some existing pattern or other. I'm pretty sure I've seen examples of similar numerology claims about the Bible being repeated with entirely mundane books. I don't see any reason for it to mean anything of significance.
Click to expand...

And maybe it doesn't, but it's not like the things I listed are the only strange things like that... Look at things about the Bible that Dr. Ivan Panin discovered... https://www.khouse.org/articles/1995/102/ It's hinted at here, but it's really much much deeper than what that article gets into... and think about the chances of randomly writing a genealogy that has all of those qualities at once... It couldn't even be done during a single lifetime with thousands of super computers...

It's fascinating stuff that has at least SOME significance and can't just be flatly dismissed as "blah... whatever"...
 
zyzygy said:
Even when you translate the text into English, interesting word pairings occur. For example, consider Genesis 31:28: “And hast not suffered me to kiss my sons and my daughters? Thou hast now done foolishly in so doing.” If we start with the “r” in daughters and take every 4th letter, we get r-o-s-w-e-l-l. Now start with the “u” in “thou” and take every 12th letter: “u-f-o”. Evidence of aliens among us, perhaps.



Not convinced? It gets better. Michael Drosnin, the original popularizer of this work, has examined the King James Bible for ELS’s. He found pairings like “Bill Clinton” linked with “President”, “Hitler” linked with “Nazi”, and “Kennedy” linked with Dallas. More than coincidence? Drosnin thinks so. His book “The Bible Code” came out a couple of years ago and is still doing well. Drosnin sold the rights to Hollywood shortly after publication: “The Omega Code” is based on it.



Unfortunately for Drosnin and others easily amazed, there is nothing astonishing about it. Using a computer (as he did), you can find similar results in just about any large text you care to try. Moby Dick, for example, contains interconnected ELS’s of “Kennedy”, “head”, “shot”, and “had been so killed”. War and Peace predicts the Chicago Bull’s miraculous 1998 NBA championship by interconnecting “Jordan”, “Chicago”, and “Bulls”. I’m even running a code analyzer on this article as I type it. So far I’ve found “Coke adds life” and “Love Boat hit show”.

Bible Codes
Click to expand...

I'm aware of plenty of those things, and I did say in my OP that there may not be any significance to it, but maybe take a look at the Matthew 1 Genealogy of Christ and notice all of the "multiple of 7's" involved with the Greek words which were chosen to be written down... Look up Dr. Ivan Panin and what he discovered about Matthew's genealogy of Christ, among other things... Sure, it can be dismissed as "chance", but the more things you add, the less and less likely that it is a result of chance.
 
Some people are easily fooled.
 
zyzygy said:
Even when you translate the text into English, interesting word pairings occur. For example, consider Genesis 31:28: “And hast not suffered me to kiss my sons and my daughters? Thou hast now done foolishly in so doing.” If we start with the “r” in daughters and take every 4th letter, we get r-o-s-w-e-l-l. Now start with the “u” in “thou” and take every 12th letter: “u-f-o”. Evidence of aliens among us, perhaps.



Not convinced? It gets better. Michael Drosnin, the original popularizer of this work, has examined the King James Bible for ELS’s. He found pairings like “Bill Clinton” linked with “President”, “Hitler” linked with “Nazi”, and “Kennedy” linked with Dallas. More than coincidence? Drosnin thinks so. His book “The Bible Code” came out a couple of years ago and is still doing well. Drosnin sold the rights to Hollywood shortly after publication: “The Omega Code” is based on it.



Unfortunately for Drosnin and others easily amazed, there is nothing astonishing about it. Using a computer (as he did), you can find similar results in just about any large text you care to try. Moby Dick, for example, contains interconnected ELS’s of “Kennedy”, “head”, “shot”, and “had been so killed”. War and Peace predicts the Chicago Bull’s miraculous 1998 NBA championship by interconnecting “Jordan”, “Chicago”, and “Bulls”. I’m even running a code analyzer on this article as I type it. So far I’ve found “Coke adds life” and “Love Boat hit show”.

Bible Codes
Click to expand...

I remember researching this many years ago and found that same analysis. There was even software that allowed you to try it on different texts. It was fun but one thing they all have in common is it can’t be used to predict anything.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
I remember researching this many years ago and found that same analysis. There was even software that allowed you to try it on different texts. It was fun but one thing they all have in common is it can’t be used to predict anything.
Click to expand...

Not unless you believe in magic.
 
gfm7175 said:
To me, the "encoding" in these two Bible verses of these two intrinsic constants in the universe, while there may not be any significance to it, is just too "odd" to pass over without giving it any real thought, especially when one takes a look at all the other instances of these sort of "oddities" that are scattered throughout the Bible, and odd facts such as "all languages flow towards Jerusalem" in terms of reading them...

For Genesis 1:1, if you use Hebrew and take the number of letters times the product of the letters and divide that number by the number of words times the product of the words, you will get a result of 3.1416 x 10^17, and 3.1416 is equivalent to Pi rounded to four decimal places.

For John 1:1, if you use Greek and do the same exact calculation, you will get a result of 2.7183 x 10^40, and 2.7183 is equivalent to e rounded to four decimal places.


Just something to think about...
Click to expand...

I find it ironic that you search for scientific/mathematical validation of the bible.
 
Perhaps even more remarkable are the predictions of the future found in other literature when the same mathematical matrix technique is applied to the text. The following information was taken from a page titled "Assassinations Foretold in Moby Dick!"

"The following challenge was made by Michael Drosnin:

‘When my critics find a message about the assassination of a prime minister encrypted in Moby Dick, I'll believe them.' (Newsweek, Jun 9, 1997)

...without further ado, we present our answer to Mr Drosnin's challenge."
The following assassinations were predicted by Moby (you can view the grids yourself by surfing over to the site).

Prime Minister Indira Gandhi

President Rene Moawad (incredibly the Moby Dick code reads ‘an exploding bomb' which is how he actually died)

Leon Trotsky (Trotsky was murdered with an ice pick. The Codes read, ice, hammer, executed, the steel head of the lance.)

Martin Luther King (to be killed by them, prepare for death, gun, agents deed)

Chancellor Engelbert Dollfuss (gun, Wien, assassination of a good fellow ... Dollfuss was shot by a gun in Wien, another prediction right on the nose, courtesy of Moby)

Sirhan Sirhan (the murderer of Robert Kennedy, a very complex set of codes, surf over to see it yourself).

John F. Kennedy (among other things the code mentions that Kennedy was shot in the head by rifle used by a concealed assassin)


Much was made of the Rabin assassination prediction in the Bible Code. The Moby Dick code also predicts this assassination and puts the extremely simple Torah version to shame when compared to the complexity of the Moby Dick prediction of the same event. As the author wrote:

"Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin was shot dead on November 4, 1995. Hisassassin was Igal Amir, who fired three shots of which one hit Rabin fatally in thechest. Amir was a student at Bar-Ilan University, and associated with anunderground group Eyal which modeled itself on a historical terrorist group calledLehi. Amir was angered by Rabin's role in the "Peace Process" and especially bythe Oslo accords."

Moby Dick, of course, spells out it all out in crossword puzzle fashion. Check out the Moby grids yourself, and compare the simple Bible Code version of the same prediction, and see what conclusions you come to.

And, speaking of complex codes, the prediction of the death of Princess Diana by Moby Dick is one of the most amazing mathematical artifacts I have ever seen. It is the most complex matrix crossword predicting a future event that I have yet seen.

The Bible Code, War and Peace, and Moby Dick
 
gfm7175 said:
I have nothing against science and math...
Click to expand...

Do you set them at a higher level than religious faith? Why do you feel the need to attempt to use them as a validation of religious faith?
 
gfm7175 said:
It couldn't even be done during a single lifetime with thousands of super computers...
Click to expand...
You're wrong. It can and has been (such as referenced by the link zyzygy gave).

gfm7175 said:
It's fascinating stuff that has at least SOME significance and can't just be flatly dismissed as "blah... whatever"...
Click to expand...
I didn't dismiss it, I said I don't any reason for it to be significant. Given that exactly the same word-and-number games can be played with any text, you would need to provide something beyond that to support any hypothesis that there is some specific significance to the examples you choose to select.
 
gfm7175 said:
Look it up online... The Mysteries of Pi and e: Fundamental Constants? – Chuck Missler – Koinonia House

Look at it for yourself, do your own homework, and come to your own conclusions about it...

I don't have time to spoon feed you...
Click to expand...

Let's go and analyze this. First of all, it doesn't back up any of it's claims. It starts off with 'the speed of light is not a constant'.. that is factually incorrect. The correct statement btw 'The speed of light in a vacuum, and only psuedoscience 'woo' sites claim it's not a constant. Right, then and there, it starts off with a lie.

Next..this is the whole 'bible code' argument. This pretty much is debunked. Bible Codes debunked in Statistical Science

You're getting fooled by psuedoscience who are trying to sell a product.
 
devildavid said:
Do you set them at a higher level than religious faith? Why do you feel the need to attempt to use them as a validation of religious faith?
Click to expand...

No I don't. I find them all to be quite useful tools for answering the mysteries of the world...

Because I believe in making use of numerous types of evidence and not simply believing based off of blind faith.
 
HonestJoe said:
You're wrong. It can and has been (such as referenced by the link zyzygy gave).
Click to expand...
Apples and oranges...
https://zionsgate.wordpress.com/2013/06/17/the-rule-of-seven/

HonestJoe said:
I didn't dismiss it, I said I don't any reason for it to be significant. Given that exactly the same word-and-number games can be played with any text, you would need to provide something beyond that to support any hypothesis that there is some specific significance to the examples you choose to select.
Click to expand...
I believe that what the Hebrew and Greek renderings do with concerns to this is well beyond what any other book does by random chance.
 
RAMOSS said:
Let's go and analyze this. First of all, it doesn't back up any of it's claims. It starts off with 'the speed of light is not a constant'.. that is factually incorrect. The correct statement btw 'The speed of light in a vacuum, and only psuedoscience 'woo' sites claim it's not a constant. Right, then and there, it starts off with a lie.

Next..this is the whole 'bible code' argument. This pretty much is debunked. Bible Codes debunked in Statistical Science

You're getting fooled by psuedoscience who are trying to sell a product.
Click to expand...

https://www.livescience.com/29111-speed-of-light-not-constant.html
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/speed-light-not-so-constant-after-all
 
gfm7175 said:
No I don't. I find them all to be quite useful tools for answering the mysteries of the world...

Because I believe in making use of numerous types of evidence and not simply believing based off of blind faith.
Click to expand...

When you base belief partly on evidence, the evidence needs to hold up to the same scrutiny as all such evidence. When it does not, it doesn't get a free pass because it is used by believers.
 
devildavid said:
When you base belief partly on evidence, the evidence needs to hold up to the same scrutiny as all such evidence. When it does not, it doesn't get a free pass because it is used by believers.
Click to expand...

I think it holds up... take hemoglobin for example... There is only one in 7.4 x 10^650 (could be argued 7.9 x 10^503, if there are only 516 significant amino acid positions instead of 574) arrangements of amino acids that is hemoglobin. Even using the smaller number, you would need A LOT of faith to believe that hemoglobin came about by random chance (since it would take about 10^500+ random trials to obtain that precise sequence of amino acids).

To put that into perspective, there has only been about 10^17 seconds since the beginning of the big bang and there are only about 10^66 atoms in the universe...

I think thought needs to be had concerning how numerous things about our universe are SO extremely improbable of occurring by chance that they pretty much must have been designed to be the way they are by an intelligent mind.


Also, if you believe that the existence of simple things such as chairs can't be a result of chance, why believe that more complex things such as humans, or DNA, or our universe as a whole came about as a result of chance?
 
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