Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116,971,997]

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

code1211 said:

I assumed diy meant "Do It Yourself". I get in more trouble than I care to by assuming, though...

I don't have any concerns whatever about atheists as long as they contain their lack of belief to themselves.

Actively campaigning to remove belief from others is an interesting need in some. Whether a guy is an Atheist, a Methodist or a Muslim makes no difference to me as long as they corral the need to convert me.

I do find it interesting that they attach themselves to a definition of what they are not.

I happen to be a Vikings Fan by birth and a Colts Fan by location. I am not an Apacker or Apatriot, but it pretty much goes without saying. My definition of myself, though, is the positive, not the negative.

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Almost all the world has until very recently has been theists (in one form or another.) How else would you distinguish yourself from the group in this case?
Words like, humanist, secular humanist, are emerging.
I'm assuming most atheists would choose not even to identify their lack of belief.
I don't believe in astrology either, but don't call myself a non astrologer, why? because not everyone calls themselves astrologist.
And, I have yet to see an astrologer telling me they know the truth when I know and they know they don't.

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

Sanluis said:

I am a theist and in regard to religion I call myself a diy Christian.

I have been talking with atheists for years now, and I have come to the certainty that atheists are essentially into evasions in their arguments against the existence of God, in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.

For example, the ways they describe themselves is already into evasion, avoiding seeing themselves in their true attitude, like they describe themselves as just not believing in any God, gods, goddesses, deities, divinities, etc., whereas the way I see them they are simply motivated by any other reasons, than that they simply just do not believe in any God, gods, goddesses, deities, divinities, etc.

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Tell me, what does the bible say about lies?

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

<alt>doxygen said:

If you actually understood the OP, you're way ahead of me. I'd ask you what it means but based on the responses, I'm pretty sure that I don't care. LOL...

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My translation of OP: "Atheist's may claim to simply lack a belief in a deity but I don't buy it."

This usually comes in the form of, "you may mock faith but your belief in (Insert Subject Here) is just as dogmatic and without evidence." Or whatever else he regards as an "evasion."

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

code1211 said:

I assumed diy meant "Do It Yourself". I get in more trouble than I care to by assuming, though...

I don't have any concerns whatever about atheists as long as they contain their lack of belief to themselves.

Actively campaigning to remove belief from others is an interesting need in some. Whether a guy is an Atheist, a Methodist or a Muslim makes no difference to me as long as they corral the need to convert me.

I do find it interesting that they attach themselves to a definition of what they are not.

I happen to be a Vikings Fan by birth and a Colts Fan by location. I am not an Apacker or Apatriot, but it pretty much goes without saying. My definition of myself, though, is the positive, not the negative.

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I find this post to be somewhat hypocritical and an amusing take on things.

Atheists tend to become militant when theists try forcing their beliefs on society. For example , the anti- abortion stand of christians, the anti-gay and gay marriage of christians, the attempt by christians to get their beliefs become mandatory teaching in school and their attempts to classify their theology as a science or history of which it is neither.

As for your comment "Actively campaigning to remove belief from others " is more a case of self pity than actual reality. Just another christian lamenting the fact that others are telling them to take their superstitious beliefs and piss off and stop interfering in the lives of others. Which makes the christian try for the pity vote of complaining that others are not allowing them to be christians and follow christian doctrine of trying to force their morality on others.

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

can2man said:

Almost all the world has until very recently has been theists (in one form or another.) How else would you distinguish yourself from the group in this case?
Words like, humanist, secular humanist, are emerging.
I'm assuming most atheists would choose not even to identify their lack of belief.
I don't believe in astrology either, but don't call myself a non astrologer, why? because not everyone calls themselves astrologist.
And, I have yet to see an astrologer telling me they know the truth when I know and they know they don't.

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Considering that an atheist or even to suggest something other than a god would mean being put to death until recently then it is no surprise that all the world claimed to be a theist.

I am curious here, what means " choose not even to identify their lack of belief."?

Atheism is not a belief system, there is no club to join or philosophy to follow. Atheism is nothing more than a response to the question of a belief in a god, nothing more. If you want any action to derive from atheism then you need to add on a qualifier such as "weak" or "strong" or "militant" to the word atheist to give it any kind of direction.

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

Thanks a lot, dear colleagues here, for your replies.

Now, let you and me work together as for everyone to know what is the focus of this thread.

Of course all posters are welcome to contribute your thoughts, but let us just keep to the focus of the thread.

And who is to determine the focus of the thread?

Who else but yours truly, the author of the thread here.

So, let me just explain (of course if you read my first and second posts in page 1, you should already know the focus of my thread) the title of the thread, for in the title in most writings, the author seeks to lead readers to the focus of his piece of writing.

The title of this thread of mine is:

"Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions."

By atheists I refer to what I call internet atheists, or in even more particular, atheists who are writing in web forums or blogs vehemently explaining and defending and advocating their atheism.

By arguments I mean atheists bringing forth thoughts inside their mind as to convince fellow men that their atheistic ideas and practices are founded on reason.

By evasions I refer to words and more words which do not address the core issue in a controversy, but tend to distract readers: so that readers are oblivious to the fact that a writer is not addressing the issue at hand - at all, but distracting his readers from attending to the actual issue at hand.

There, I guess all internet atheists here know what atheists I am referring to.

And here is an example of what I see to be evasions by atheists, namely of course, from internet atheists.

I ask you atheists, what is your description of yourselves as atheists?

Let us await with bated breath to read their descriptions of what they are as atheists, and we will notice that they are into evasions, evasions from the issue itself of whether God exists or not.

Now, I am into philosophy and not religion, that means that let us all talk from philosophy and not bring in religion, unless a religious belief is connected to a philosophical idea.

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

soylentgreen said:

Considering that an atheist or even to suggest something other than a god would mean being put to death until recently then it is no surprise that all the world claimed to be a theist.

I am curious here, what means " choose not even to identify their lack of belief."?

Atheism is not a belief system, there is no club to join or philosophy to follow. Atheism is nothing more than a response to the question of a belief in a god, nothing more. If you want any action to derive from atheism then you need to add on a qualifier such as "weak" or "strong" or "militant" to the word atheist to give it any kind of direction.

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I was trying to say what you stated. Except I forgot the word 'with' and had poor grammar.

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

can2man said:

Originally Posted by soylentgreen View Post
Considering that an atheist or even to suggest something other than a god would mean being put to death until recently then it is no surprise that all the world claimed to be a theist.

I am curious here, what means " choose not even to identify their lack of belief."?

Atheism is not a belief system, there is no club to join or philosophy to follow. Atheism is nothing more than a response to the question of a belief in a god, nothing more. If you want any action to derive from atheism then you need to add on a qualifier such as "weak" or "strong" or "militant" to the word atheist to give it any kind of direction.

From can2man
I was trying to say what you stated. Except I forgot the word 'with' and had poor grammar.

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Do you notice, dear readers here, that atheists are telling mankind that they don't have any rational reasons to take up with the identity of their label as atheists, except pure arbitrary choice to proclaim themselves to be atheists, namely what?

Namely that they purely and simply just without reasons choose to tell mankind that they simply purely opt to not have any belief in God, gods, goddesses, deities, divinities, etc.

The issue is to prove or disprove the existence of at least one God, and atheists who go about telling mankind that they just simply and purely opt to not have any belief in God etc.

That is the evasion with atheists, namely, they choose to not have any reasons to not have any belief in any God, gods, etc.

But they must have a motivation for such an attitude of evasion.

So, rationally curious mankind must investigate the psychology of atheists i.e. humans who just simply purely choose without rational grounds to proclaim themselves to be without any belief in any God, gods, etc.

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

code1211 said:

I just came back from a family reunion in San Diego.

I did not stop by to see Jerry Brown while I was there.

Thankfully, he did not stop by to see me.

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which is excellent, it gives those of another opinion the choice to breach the subject with you or not.

I have only been to 3 church services in my life. Once when a colleague got married, we had to draw names out of a hat to decide who would go to the church and who would go to the real wedding in city hall (in the Netherlands people need to get legally married first in city hall and then choose whether or not to get married in church also) because we were all work colleagues and everybody wanted to attend one of the two. It was a work day so the office also had to remain open so we switched, the ones who went to city hall had to go back and change places with those going to the church wedding.

The other religious service I attended was when a friend died in a motorcycle accident and the other one was when we visited Windsor village during a school trip. Our English teacher was friends with one of the church elders of the royal chapel so we got to visit the little church inside Windsor castle.

But most people I know also are not religious so it is highly unlikely I will ever visit another religious service, but as said, to each their own and people should be free to believe what they want (within reason, I do not like cults).

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

Well, I am still waiting for atheists to tell me why they have to resort to such an interesting way to describe themselves, which I see to be an evasion from the issue at hand, namely, prove or disprove the existence of God - the evasion namely:

"I am an atheist, I mean I just simply purely choose to describe myself as just simply purely lacking any belief in God, gods, goddesses, deities, divinities, etc."

That is purely simply evasion from the issue at hand of God exists or does not exist.

To be be NOT into evasion, just simply purely proclaim:

"I rationally deny the existence of God, gods, goddesses, deities, divinities, etc."

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

Sanluis said:

I am a theist and in regard to religion I call myself a diy Christian.

I have been talking with atheists for years now, and I have come to the certainty that atheists are essentially into evasions in their arguments against the existence of God, in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.

For example, the ways they describe themselves is already into evasion, avoiding seeing themselves in their true attitude, like they describe themselves as just not believing in any God, gods, goddesses, deities, divinities, etc., whereas the way I see them they are simply motivated by any other reasons, than that they simply just do not believe in any God, gods, goddesses, deities, divinities, etc.

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I'm an agnostic. I don't buy into the accounts of God put forth by the religions/denominations I've looked into, but moving from that to a belief that there is not or cannot be a God is not a leap I can take.

I don't consider myself evasive in the least. The burden of proof lies with the person making the positive assertion, not the person requesting proof. So, show me your God, or convince me that your God is real by using logical or philosophical arguments.

I see that you are new here. Angel has created a number of threads where philosophical and logical proofs of God have been debated. There probably over 1,000 posts you can review in those. Some of the arguments are intriguing, but I haven't seen one that works with any of the God constructs that any of the major theistic religions have.

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

Sanluis said:

Well, I am still waiting for atheists to tell me why they have to resort to such an interesting way to describe themselves, which I see to be an evasion from the issue at hand, namely, prove or disprove the existence of God - the evasion namely:

"I am an atheist, I mean I just simply purely choose to describe myself as just simply purely lacking any belief in God, gods, goddesses, deities, divinities, etc."

That is purely simply evasion from the issue at hand of God exists or does not exist.

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No, the question answered by self-description is what one believes. I do not believe any god exists. Whether or not any gods actually exist is really irrelevant...I have not been convinced of the existence of any, so I do not believe in any. There's no evasion: defining myself as an atheist answers the question asked.

To be be NOT into evasion, just simply purely proclaim:

"I rationally deny the existence of God, gods, goddesses, deities, divinities, etc."

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But that's not my position. I don't deny the existence of any supernatural. By definition there is no way to prove or disprove them. But what evidence does exist, and is presented, is not convincing enough to even tentatively accept any such propositions.

Your own identification of "DIY Christian" can also be seen as an evasion of the truth of any doctrines or beliefs about Christianity.

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

Sanluis said:

Do you notice, dear readers here, that atheists are telling mankind that they don't have any rational reasons to take up with the identity of their label as atheists, except pure arbitrary choice to proclaim themselves to be atheists, namely what?

Namely that they purely and simply just without reasons choose to tell mankind that they simply purely opt to not have any belief in God, gods, goddesses, deities, divinities, etc.

The issue is to prove or disprove the existence of at least one God, and atheists who go about telling mankind that they just simply and purely opt to not have any belief in God etc.

That is the evasion with atheists, namely, they choose to not have any reasons to not have any belief in any God, gods, etc.

But they must have a motivation for such an attitude of evasion.


So, rationally curious mankind must investigate the psychology of atheists i.e. humans who just simply purely choose without rational grounds to proclaim themselves to be without any belief in any God, gods, etc.

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I'm not making any claims - what would you like me to address?
Put forward a rational argument for the existence of God and then we can hash it out.
I mean, if I say the lochness monster exists, it's up to me to prove it does, not you to prove it does not.

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

pinqy said:

No, the question answered by self-description is what one believes. I do not believe any god exists. Whether or not any gods actually exist is really irrelevant...I have not been convinced of the existence of any, so I do not believe in any. There's no evasion: defining myself as an atheist answers the question asked.


But that's not my position. I don't deny the existence of any supernatural. By definition there is no way to prove or disprove them. But what evidence does exist, and is presented, is not convincing enough to even tentatively accept any such propositions.

Your own identification of "DIY Christian" can also be seen as an evasion of the truth of any doctrines or beliefs about Christianity.

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Have you investigated the existence of God or not, and reached the decision founded on your reasoning that no God exists, but you have also given your concept of God?

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

This thread is not about my religion of diy Christianity, but about atheists' arguments being essentially evasions.

Besides we are talking philosophy not religion.

You can start your own thread on diy Christianity as an evasion from whatever you think it to be an evasion, okay?!


Do you have at all an argument against God existing? If so, then present your argument, don't keep repeating that it is your belief etc., for belief is not any argument.

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

Sanluis said:

"Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions."

By atheists I refer to what I call internet atheists, or in even more particular, atheists who are writing in web forums or blogs vehemently explaining and defending and advocating their atheism....

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So first it was "atheists"
Then "militant atheists"
Now "internet atheists"

Pick a lane, kthx.

By arguments I mean atheists bringing forth thoughts inside their mind as to convince fellow men that their atheistic ideas and practices are founded on reason.

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Okay, so... What's wrong with that? How is that any different than a religious person who proselytizes?

By evasions I refer to words and more words which do not address the core issue in a controversy, but tend to distract readers: so that readers are oblivious to the fact that a writer is not addressing the issue at hand - at all, but distracting his readers from attending to the actual issue at hand.

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What is this "core issue," then?

I mean, it seems to me the "core issue" is: Does the supernatural exist? Or, do deities exist? Or, does this specific deity proposed by someone exist? It seems to me that atheists (of all sorts) are willing to discuss this.

I ask you atheists, what is your description of yourselves as atheists?

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I don't define myself as an atheist. To me, "atheism" defines itself in opposition to religion, it's right in the etymological structure of the word itself. I prefer terms like materialist and physicalist.

• Empiricist, within certain limits
• Skeptic, within
• Physicalist
• Metaphysical and epistemic realist, with a twist of Kantianism and a dash of neo-Platonism
• Adherent of reason and logic

I don't see myself as evading anything at all. But thanks for making all sorts of presumptions, rather than listening. Very useful, that.

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

Sanluis said:

I am a theist and in regard to religion I call myself a diy Christian.

I have been talking with atheists for years now, and I have come to the certainty that atheists are essentially into evasions in their arguments against the existence of God, in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.

For example, the ways they describe themselves is already into evasion, avoiding seeing themselves in their true attitude, like they describe themselves as just not believing in any God, gods, goddesses, deities, divinities, etc., whereas the way I see them they are simply motivated by any other reasons, than that they simply just do not believe in any God, gods, goddesses, deities, divinities, etc.

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Atheists can be best described as realists, that is to say they take a scientist's view of life and work from empirical evidence to help explain their relationship to the world around them. The mouthy over the top Atheists are no different than the mouthy over the top evangelical Christians who are in it for the agenda they choose. The rest, just like the diyourselfers... measure their relationships with the world based on their personal experiences and beliefs, whether raised with said beliefs or coming to them in a person's own time.

Just because a person says that they don't believe in ethereal consciousness beings, that does not make said people any less valuable in their presence or opinion than say - yours... To criticize someone based on personal beliefs one way or the other in fact short circuits your own relationship with your ethereal consciousness; no two trees are exactly alike, however their presence has value based on their true relationship to the world around them and what they can provide to assist as a benefit.

Atheists, just like everybody else have their place as people.

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

Sanluis said:

Have you investigated the existence of God or not, and reached the decision founded on your reasoning that no God exists, but you have also given your concept of God?

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No, I have not reached the decision that no gods exist. I have studied most of the major religions, and some of the minor ones, and have not found any reason to think any of them true.

The main issue is the question of what is a god, and how could we know one exists? I have never heard a good answer for that. So how can anyone claim that any god exists if there is no objective definition of a god, nor any known method to evaluate whether or not any proposed entity meets that definition? Personally, I have no concept of what any god would be.

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

pinqy said:

No, I have not reached the decision that no gods exist. I have studied most of the major religions, and some of the minor ones, and have not found any reason to think any of them true.

The main issue is the question of what is a god, and how could we know one exists? I have never heard a good answer for that. So how can anyone claim that any god exists if there is no objective definition of a god, nor any known method to evaluate whether or not any proposed entity meets that definition? Personally, I have no concept of what any god would be.

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I take the next logical step and have to conclude that god is imaginary, a product of man's ability to imagine things. Believers demand that the concept of god be given special treatment that other imaginary things are not afforded, and there is no good reason for doing so. Making up gods puts no burden on anyone to have to even consider gods at all or even look into it.

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

Sanluis said:

This thread is not about my religion of diy Christianity, but about atheists' arguments being essentially evasions.

Besides we are talking philosophy not religion.

You can start your own thread on diy Christianity as an evasion from whatever you think it to be an evasion, okay?!


Do you have at all an argument against God existing? If so, then present your argument, don't keep repeating that it is your belief etc., for belief is not any argument.

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Again: tell me, what does the bible say about lies?

Super simple question.

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

Sanluis said:

I am a theist and in regard to religion I call myself a diy Christian.

I have been talking with atheists for years now, and I have come to the certainty that atheists are essentially into evasions in their arguments against the existence of God, in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.

For example, the ways they describe themselves is already into evasion, avoiding seeing themselves in their true attitude, like they describe themselves as just not believing in any God, gods, goddesses, deities, divinities, etc., whereas the way I see them they are simply motivated by any other reasons, than that they simply just do not believe in any God, gods, goddesses, deities, divinities, etc.

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I'm not going to describe myself as atheist; knowing the mysteries of the universe is way beyond my pay grade. As such I'm not going to claim that I know a bearded older-looking man isn't looking after it all.

That being said do you feel that you understand God?

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

Dear atheist colleagues here, do you have an argument again God existing?

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

Sanluis said:

Dear atheist colleagues here, do you have an argument again God existing?

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Sorry, there's a typo, it should read:

"Dear atheist colleagues here, do you have an argument against God existing?

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

Sanluis said:

Dear atheist colleagues here, do you have an argument again God existing?

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Why does anyone need an argument against something imaginary, something with absolutely no basis at all?

re: Atheists' arguments are essentially evasions. [W:116]

devildavid said:

I take the next logical step and have to conclude that god is imaginary, a product of man's ability to imagine things. Believers demand that the concept of god be given special treatment that other imaginary things are not afforded, and there is no good reason for doing so. Making up gods puts no burden on anyone to have to even consider gods at all or even look into it.

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Well, sure. I agree as a tentative conclusion. I can say it seems to be that case that gods are the product of human imagination, but gods are not falsifiable. It is possible (though I don't happen to believe it's true) that a god or gods exist and the various human beliefs are imperfect renditions of such a being/beings. We cannot definitively rule that out, even if we don't think it's the best or even a likely, explanation. This is why I don't declare as a truth that there are no gods, I just don't have any reason to think there are.