God and The Meaning of Life

Quag · Mar 10, 2018

Angel said:
I'll touch on only three of your outrageous mischaracterizations or misunderstandings -- at this point I really can't say what they are or what's going on with you, Quag -- and then wish you well.

To your first mischaracterization/misunderstanding, I say finally:
I brought up Aristotle's famous premises -- man is a social animal, man is a political animal -- in order to try to get you to see that my premise, "Man is a religious animal," ought to be accepted as a reasonable generalization by anyone talking with me in good faith.

You have provided no reason for anyone to accept it. Claiming Aristotle did the same thing with another premise doesnt excuse you the need to actually back up your premise.

To your second mischaracterization/misunderstanding, I say finally:
No, "all emotion is religious" is not an "expansion" of the claim we were discussing -- it is part of the argument for that claim, an argument you are pretending is not there.

Gladness is an emotion, you started with that claim then expanded it to all emotions.

To your third mischaracterization/misunderstanding, I say finally:
It is not unreasonable to ask for acceptance of a reasonable claim. "Man is a religious animal" is as reasonable a generalization as "Man is a political animal."

Of course it is unreasonable to expect someone to accept your claim without any actual reason to do so.
Bringing up Aristotle doesnt change that fact.

Nice talking to you, Quag. As always.

Namaste.

Namaste

can2man · Mar 10, 2018

devildavid said:
Mankind has trouble facing the fact it is finite.

I agree that's what all this back and forth is about, people don't want to accept that this life is all we have.
Our bodies and energy will be recycled but 'you' that's all she wrote.

Angel · Mar 10, 2018

can2man said:
I agree that's what all this back and forth is about, people don't want to accept that this life is all we have.
Our bodies and energy will be recycled but 'you' that's all she wrote.

Thanks for this contribution to the back and forth, can2man. What you say is certainly credible. But of course the survival instinct is very powerful in man, and so the back and forth will likely go on, and on.

Angel · Mar 10, 2018

can2man said:
I agree that's what all this back and forth is about, people don't want to accept that this life is all we have.
Our bodies and energy will be recycled but 'you' that's all she wrote.

Ludwig Wittgenstein (1889–1951)

"Death is not an event in life: we do not live to experience death. If we take eternity to mean not infinite temporal duration but timelessness, then eternal life belongs to those who live in the present. Our life has no end in just the way in which our visual field has no limits." (6.4311)
(Der Tod ist kein Ereignis des Lebens. Den Tod erlebt man nicht. Wenn man unter Ewigkeit nicht unendliche Zeitdauer, sondern Unzeitlichkeit versteht, dann lebt der ewig, der in der Gegenwart lebt. Unser Leben ist ebenso endlos, wie unser Gesichtsfeld grenzenlos ist.)

Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus (1922)

can2man · Mar 10, 2018

Angel said:
Thanks for this contribution to the back and forth, can2man. What you say is certainly credible. But of course the survival instinct is very powerful in man, and so the back and forth will likely go on, and on.

I am enjoying this thread, so thank you.
True the back and forth will continue - would you want it any other way? I wouldn't.

Angel · Mar 11, 2018

Excelsior!

Angel said:
Proof is in the Air

Level One Argument

1. If God exists, then universal meaning exists. (OP thesis)

2. God exists. (Principle of sufficient reason, inference to the best explanation)

3. Therefore, universal meaning exists. (from 1 & 2)

Level Two Argument

4. If universal meaning exists, then God exists. ("Next Level" thesis)

5. Universal meaning exists. (from 3)

6. Therefore, God exists. (from 4 & 5)

Click to expand...

Notes
a.) The Level One Argument argues to universal meaning from the existence of a Creator God.
b.) The Level Two Argument argues from universal meaning to the existence of a Creator God.

c.) Truth Table for the Conditional Argument

In other words, one cannot affirm the existence of a Creator God and deny the existence of universal meaning, and one cannot affirm the existence of universal meaning and deny the existence of a Creator God.

d.) The Meaning of Meaning

The Semantic Triangle

e.) At Level One universal meaning is said to be inscrutable.
f.) At Level Two universal meaning is said to be the meaning of meaning.

At Level Three one must ask/answer/argue the following question:

What does it mean to say that universal meaning is the meaning of meaning?

...

devildavid · Mar 11, 2018

Angel said:
Ludwig Wittgenstein (1889–1951)

"Death is not an event in life: we do not live to experience death. If we take eternity to mean not infinite temporal duration but timelessness, then eternal life belongs to those who live in the present. Our life has no end in just the way in which our visual field has no limits." (6.4311)
(Der Tod ist kein Ereignis des Lebens. Den Tod erlebt man nicht. Wenn man unter Ewigkeit nicht unendliche Zeitdauer, sondern Unzeitlichkeit versteht, dann lebt der ewig, der in der Gegenwart lebt. Unser Leben ist ebenso endlos, wie unser Gesichtsfeld grenzenlos ist.)

Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus (1922)

Why hasn't Wittgenstein had any new insights to share with us since 1951?

Angel · Mar 11, 2018

In order to reflect fruitfully upon the meaning of meaning and how this may relate to the OP thesis on universal meaning, some acquaintance with semiotics and semantics would be beneficial, it seems to me; accordingly, I post this very short video. I hope my fellow members enjoy it.

Logicman · Mar 11, 2018

RAMOSS said:
Boy, I am glad I don't have the Revelation book in my Bible. It looks more than a little bit nuts.

It always does to those who haven't done their due-diligence in digging into it. But there's help for those other unfortunates:

zyzygy · Mar 11, 2018

http://www.biblicalnonsense.com/chapter14.html

https://xenlogic.wordpress.com/2010/11/21/a-skeptics-guide-to-bible-prophecy/

zyzygy · Mar 11, 2018

deleted

RAMOSS · Mar 11, 2018

Logicman said:
It always does to those who haven't done their due-diligence in digging into it. But there's help for those other unfortunates:

View attachment 67229914

That does not change the fact that in my bible, the Jewish scripture, the book of Revelation is not there. It is not part of Jewish scripture. It's not part of my bible.

Do try to keep up.

devildavid · Mar 12, 2018

Angel said:
In order to reflect fruitfully upon the meaning of meaning and how this may relate to the OP thesis on universal meaning, some acquaintance with semiotics and semantics would be beneficial, it seems to me; accordingly, I post this very short video. I hope my fellow members enjoy it.

And how does this relate to the made up, imaginary concept of creator god as an actual conscious entity that actually exists, completely independent of man's ability to imagine things? What does it have to do with the made up concept of mind as a separate and non-physical thing, separate from the physical brain and nervous system? There is no claim that we can't make up meaning, which obviously we do with language and symbols, as a means to communicate. The point is that we did not discover "meaning" as something that exists independent of our ability to create it. As in, the "meaning of life" which depends upon an actual spiritual entity, which we discovered, rather than fabricated, in our imagination.

Angel · Mar 12, 2018

Let's get one thing straight from the outset...

I mean, you mean, he, she, and it means;

we mean, you mean, they mean;

words mean, gestures mean, faces mean;

signs mean; statues mean;

clouds mean;

clothes mean;

the bark of a dog means;

the bark of a tree means;

the buzz of a fly means;

the trumpeting of an elephant means;

paintings mean;

poems mean;

music means;

the sun means; the moon means;

stars mean;

molecules mean; atoms mean;

electrons mean;

quarks mean...

and so on

right

through

the Catalog.

devildavid · Mar 12, 2018

Angel said:
Let's get one thing straight from the outset...
I mean, you mean, he, she, and it means;
we mean, you mean, they mean;
words mean, gestures mean, faces mean;
signs mean; statues mean;
clouds mean;
clothes mean;
the bark of a dog means;
the bark of a tree means;
the buzz of a fly means;
the trumpeting of an elephant means;
paintings mean;
poems mean;
music means;
the sun means; the moon means;
stars mean;
molecules mean; atoms mean;
electrons mean;
quarks mean...
and so on
right
through
the Catalog.

Let's get this straight, the idea that things mean something is an invention of man. All things "are" is all we can really say. What things mean is what they mean to individuals. There is no universal meaning of anything.

Angel · Mar 12, 2018

Also...

the scent of a rose;

the odor of gunpowder;

the caress of a breeze;

the softness of cotton;

the tug of the tide;

the sweetness of chocolate;

the French Revolution;

Elvis Presley;

Snoopy;

and so forth,

on and on,

through the Catalog.

Angel · Mar 12, 2018

And for the record:

To mean (v.), meaning (n.)

Etymology

mean (v.)

"intend, have in mind," Old English mænan "to mean, intend, signify; tell, say; complain, lament," from West Germanic *mainijan (source also of Old Frisian mena "to signify," Old Saxon menian "to intend, signify, make known," Dutch menen, German meinen "think, suppose, be of the opinion"), from PIE *meino- "opinion, intent" (source also of Old Church Slavonic meniti "to think, have an opinion," Old Irish mian "wish, desire," Welsh mwyn "enjoyment"), perhaps from root *men- (1) "to think." Conversational question you know what I mean? attested by 1834.

meaning (n.)

"sense, import, intent," c. 1300, from mean (v.).

https://www.etymonline.com/word/mean

Etymology

From Middle English menen (“to intend; remember; lament; comfort”), from Old English mǣnan (“to mean, signify; lament”), from Proto-Germanic *mainijaną (“to mean, think; lament”), from Proto-Indo-European *meyn- (“to think”). Germanic cognates include West Frisian miene (“to deem, think”) (Old Frisian mēna (“signify”)), Dutch menen (“to believe, think, mean”) (Middle Dutch menen (“think, intend”)), German meinen (“to think, mean, believe”), Old Saxon mēnian. Indo-European cognates include Old Irish mían (“wish, desire”) and Polish mienić (“signify, believe”). Related to moan.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mean

Logicman · Mar 12, 2018

RAMOSS said:
That does not change the fact that in my bible, the Jewish scripture, the book of Revelation is not there. It is not part of Jewish scripture. It's not part of my bible.

Do try to keep up.

More nonsense.

If you had ever done any serious study on the Book of Revelation you would find scores of Jewish Old Testament scriptures that form the basis of Revelation symbolism and explain it.

RAMOSS · Mar 12, 2018

Logicman said:
More nonsense.

If you had ever done any serious study on the Book of Revelation you would find scores of Jewish Old Testament scriptures that form the basis of Revelation symbolism and explain it.

That doesn't matter one bit.. it's still not part of the Jewish religion, and therefore is not in my scriptures. Do try to keep up

DickBanks · Mar 12, 2018

Angel said:
These comments have me wondering just what justification reason can provide for a Beliefs and Skepticism forum.

To proclaim the Good News of the Lord Jesus Christ, of course!

Angel · Mar 12, 2018

Animals and Meaning

Logicman · Mar 12, 2018

RAMOSS said:
That doesn't matter one bit.. it's still not part of the Jewish religion, and therefore is not in my scriptures. Do try to keep up

That's nonsense. I'm so many light years ahead of your myopic understanding of the scriptures it's doubtful you'll ever catch up.

RAMOSS · Mar 12, 2018

Logicman said:
That's nonsense. I'm so many light years ahead of your myopic understanding of the scriptures it's doubtful you'll ever catch up.

You have yet to produce evidence of that claim. In fact, consdering the reactions of many Christians to you, I think it is obvious that you have demonstrated the exact opposite.

Logicman · Mar 12, 2018

RAMOSS said:
You have yet to produce evidence of that claim. In fact, consdering the reactions of many Christians to you, I think it is obvious that you have demonstrated the exact opposite.

Nonsense.

RAMOSS · Mar 12, 2018

Logicman said:
out of context meme/QUOTE]

That's amusing, since I was pointing out Christian believers reaction to your understanding and interpretation.

God and The Meaning of Life

Quag

can2man

Angel

Angel

can2man

Angel

devildavid

Phlegmatic

Angel

Logicman

zyzygy

zyzygy

RAMOSS

devildavid

Phlegmatic

Angel

devildavid

Phlegmatic

Angel

Angel

Logicman

RAMOSS

DickBanks

Well-known member

Angel

Logicman

RAMOSS

Logicman

RAMOSS