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Thread: God and The Meaning of Life

  1. #381
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    Re: God and The Meaning of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    It's not a matter of agreement. It is classic textbook question begging. And that's not where the OP starts; I've corrected your misconception two or three times now, What gives?
    .
    The op starts with the suggestion that a god gives meaning or meaning does not exist. That is a classic fallacious attempt to insist a god exists without evidence or reason, just purpose.
    Yes, I know the bolding was yours, but you did not indicate this with a bracketed [bolding mine], which would have been the proper way to go about altering with my post.
    Inconsequential, as you knew as well as i.


    No the claim of "make-believe" is the atheist's and the onus is his.
    Not at all. as it is not the claim being made it is only the logical consequence of the claim, which is, no evidence or even a good reason has ever been given for a god. So there is no reason to accept that a god is anything but someones imagination.


    This is false on its face. The Atheist Delusion.
    Yet no once have you or any other theist has managed anything beyond claiming faith.


    Are you not reading my replies to you. I've corrected this misconception pf yours and you just keep re[eating it. Again, what gives?
    Go back and read your own op. No evidence of a god nor any good reason. Merely a suggestion that it and it alone is responsible for giving meaning to our lives.

    No, that's not what I said,
    So you are then taking a position that it is a god that gives meaning?


    I have as much reason as you
    My reason is that i have taken a side that there is no god to give meaning. What is your reason?

  2. #382
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    Re: God and The Meaning of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim the plumber View Post
    When you demand special treatment, that your symbols be put over important state institutions on the basis of your word alone I am right to object.

    When you ignore the fact that it may have been possible to cure cancer, yours before now or that to come maybe, with research that has been stopped due to equally unsupported drivel I am right to object.
    While I think what symbols or art or anything else in the shared public venue should be a group decision or via majority vote, how does the presence of a Christian cross or the Ten Commandments engraved into a chunk of granite or a lovely old creche on the courthouse lawn harm you in any way? Please explain how your beliefs entitle you to deny others the ability to enjoy such things if they do.

    No Christian that I know of has EVER objected to stem cell research. I certainly don't. And it continues quite unrestricted both in our country and yours with the blessing of the huge lion's share of the Church. Many do object to the harvesting of human embryos for that purpose just as they would object to forced medical research done on human beings at any other stage, but that is a different debate. Also recent UCLA studies are finding that in most cancer cases, adult stem cells are far more effective than embrionic stem cells. But if you know of somebody who died of cancer because of anybody's opinion on stem cell research, please post your evidence. You made the claim. Back it up.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  3. #383
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    Re: God and The Meaning of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by soylentgreen View Post
    The op starts with the suggestion that a god gives meaning or meaning does not exist. That is a classic fallacious attempt to insist a god exists without evidence or reason, just purpose.
    I repeat for the fourth time, the OP presents a hypothetical: IF God exists, then universal meaning follows; IF God does not exist, then universal meaning does not follow. There is no "insistence" in the OP either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by soylentgreen View Post
    Inconsequential, as you knew as well as i.
    Inconsequential to you apparently, but not to the poster you misrepresent.

    Quote Originally Posted by soylentgreen View Post
    Not at all. as it is not the claim being made it is only the logical consequence of the claim, which is, no evidence or even a good reason has ever been given for a god. So there is no reason to accept that a god is anything but someones imagination.
    Again, the OP requires no argument for the existence (or non-existence) of God. And again, if an argument were needed, I am fully prepared to make that argument, and have made that argument in the other extant thread (Dragonfly's) on the hypothetical non-existence of God. I'll gladly reproduce it here if you are interested.

    Quote Originally Posted by soylentgreen View Post
    Yet no once have you or any other theist has managed anything beyond claiming faith.
    Again, you are confusing me with others who have argued (eloquently, I might add) for their faith. Again, I remind you that I am NOT arguing faith; wherever I have argued for the existence of God, my argument is based on KNOWLEDGE, not faith. Please try to get this straight.

    Quote Originally Posted by soylentgreen View Post
    Go back and read your own op. No evidence of a god nor any good reason. Merely a suggestion that it and it alone is responsible for giving meaning to our lives.
    Go back and re-read the OP. No evidence or reason is required to discuss the universal meaning contingent on the existence or non-existence of a Creator God.

    Quote Originally Posted by soylentgreen View Post
    So you are then taking a position that it is a god that gives meaning?
    And God's absence removes that meaning, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by soylentgreen View Post
    My reason is that i have taken a side that there is no god to give meaning. What is your reason?
    I agree with you. No God, no Meaning (capital M). Your view is covered in the OP. That possibility is addressed. Likewise the opposing view. My view is that without God there is no universal meaning; with God, there is universal meaning. That's my reason to be here, to argue that God is a necessary condition for universal meaning. And I've argued for this thesis in at Posts #47, #99, #102, #134, #149, #153, #171, #172, #174, #183, #185, #200, to name a few.
    Last edited by Angel; Yesterday at 02:26 PM. Reason: typo
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    Re: God and The Meaning of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Hmm must have missed that one.
    Not sure if it conveys meaning but if you like the melody it can convey a feeling.
    But assuming there is an unknown meaning
    What if the meaning of the song is that all who are not of the same ethnicity must be enslaved? Or conversley that we should all live together in harmony despite our differences? Would that make a difference? If it is either of those or something totally different does that change anything for you if you are unaware?
    But as I said you still dont even know if there even is a universal meaning as you claim.
    All I want you to acknowledge is that something can be meaningful even if we don;t know the meaning. Have you acknowledged that? Will you acknowledge that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    I am not telling you what your belief is about I am telling you that your belief is a belief
    I've already pointed out to you that philosophically all knowledge is belief, but only some belief is knowledge. Knowledge is justified true belief. My belief is justified and true.
    Now if you are using the word belief in the sense of religious faith, then you are not understanding me and we are talking past each other. Are we on the same page here or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    And I am saying that is subjective because a creator can exist and there still not be a universal meaning. I am also saying that even if there is a universal meaning you cannot know what it is. Plus I am saying that if there is no universal meaning you can still believe there is one but will live your life without knowng that your belief is wrong.
    Thus since the existence of the universal menaing and its actual meaning if it exists are unknown and unknowable to you it is meanignless in any way except whatever belief you place in it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    I woudl accept evidence as proof but you have only belief not evidence



    Your belief is not knowledge even using your definition of the term knowledge it is merely belief.
    As already pointed out in previous posts, all believe is subjective in the sense that it is of the mind. If this is all you're saying, then we have no disagreement.
    If you mean by subjective that my belief bears no reference outside my mind, then you both misunderstand my view and misunderstand the meaning of meaning.
    The existence of universal meaning follows from the existence of God -- if God exists, then universal meaning exists. That the "actual meaning" is unknown does not negate the existence of that meaning, the meaningfulness of Creation by a Creator God, if a Creator God exists.
    Given the existence of God, meaning is assured, even if that meaning is unknown, and faith in the sense of trust enters only here in trusting that whatever that meaning is, the Creation is not absurd (= meaningless).

    The evidence for God's existence is empirical. The inference to the best explanation of that empirical evidence is the inference to a Creator God based on the principle of sufficient reason.

    Are we on the same page then?
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  5. #385
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    Re: God and The Meaning of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    All I want you to acknowledge is that something can be meaningful even if we don;t know the meaning. Have you acknowledged that? Will you acknowledge that?
    But you dont even know if it is meaningful let alone what the meaning is. Can you acknowledge that you dont know there is a universal meaning?


    I've already pointed out to you that philosophically all knowledge is belief, but only some belief is knowledge. Knowledge is justified true belief. My belief is justified and true.
    Now if you are using the word belief in the sense of religious faith, then you are not understanding me and we are talking past each other. Are we on the same page here or not?
    And you are wrong. That is NOT what the link you posted was saying and it wasn't what I was talking about either. You said you KNEW God existed. I pointed out that you didn't know you merely believed. Even according to the link you gave your claims of Knowledge of Gods existence is false and is nothing more than a belief.




    As already pointed out in previous posts, all believe is subjective in the sense that it is of the mind. If this is all you're saying, then we have no disagreement.
    Yup I agree with this

    If you mean by subjective that my belief bears no reference outside my mind, then you both misunderstand my view and misunderstand the meaning of meaning.
    I can see no other way your view can be assessed
    The existence of universal meaning follows from the existence of God -- if God exists, then universal meaning exists.
    I disagree there is no reason God cannot exist and there still not be any universal meaning.
    That the "actual meaning" is unknown does not negate the existence of that meaning, the meaningfulness of Creation by a Creator God, if a Creator God exists.
    Again you are making assumptions based on your beliefs. There is no reason why God can exist and there still be no universal meaning.
    Given the existence of God, meaning is assured, even if that meaning is unknown, and faith in the sense of trust enters only here in trusting that whatever that meaning is, the Creation is not absurd (= meaningless).
    Again an assumption that has no basis.

    The evidence for God's existence is empirical.
    No it isn't. there is no evidence at all
    The inference to the best explanation of that empirical evidence is the inference to a Creator God based on the principle of sufficient reason.
    The principle of sufficient reason is an illogical argument worth nothing at all. There is no evidence of God and no logical argument that God exists any more than there is evidence or logical arguments against God(s)

    Are we on the same page then?
    Apparently not
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    Re: God and The Meaning of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Apparently not
    Well, it was nice seeing you again anyway. A "coffee klatch" is two or more pals chatting over coffee and whatnot in a cafe. Pret a Manger is an eatery chain in Great Britain and the USA.
    Namaste.
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    Re: God and The Meaning of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by devildavid View Post
    The concept of universal meaning is possible without relying on the concept of god. Imaginary concepts are not reliant on other imaginary concepts. Universal meaning is a vague concept that anyone can make up if they want, and like all such concepts does not have to have another vague concept to back it up. I could say that universal meaning is reliant on an invisible force located in a black hole in the center of reality.
    You can say anything you want, David. No one's stopping you. The cogency of what you are free to say is another matter altogether. But no one's stopping you from accounting for what you are free to say. So tell us about this "invisible force located in a black hole in the center of reality." What's the story there? How did you arrive at the concept and in what way is universal meaning "reliant" on it? Only in that direction does cogency lie. Otherwise someone might suspect you of flippancy.

    Addressing your few earlier points, I would remind you that we are talking about a universal meaning for the universe and everything in it. I would also remind you that your use of the word "imaginary" in bare assertions, without an argument justifying its use, begs the question. Finally, what do you find vague in the concept of universal meaning? Does the vagueness attach to the word "universal" or to the word "meaning" or to their coupling?
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    Re: God and The Meaning of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    The evidence for God's existence is empirical.
    If it is empirical, then it is observable and testable through experimentation. The whole purpose of the scientific method is to prevent the assertion of theories that are unproven or unprovable, and in particular, theories that are absurd, bizarre or illogical.

    All hypotheses must be tested repeatedly to provide sufficient evidence of their Truth.

    In spite of your beliefs, there is no empirical evidence for god.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    The generic definition of a Creator God is contained in the name of the concept -- namely, the Power that created the universe, life on earth, and mind.
    No power needs to exist in order to have created the universe.

    Life is not unique to Earth, in spite of your misinformed belief system.

    As this paper notes:

    There is a growing body of evidence demonstrating that life did not begin on this planet but began billions of years before Earth was formed (Anisimov 2010; Gibson and Wickramasinghe 2010; Goertzel and Combs, 2010; González-Díaz, 2010; Jose et al., 2010; Joseph 2009a; Joseph and Schild 2010; Line 2010; Poccia et al., 2010; Sharov 2009, 2010). There is also considerable evidence that the evolution of life on Earth has been directly impacted by viral and microbial genes which were acquired from life forms living on other planets (Joseph 2000, 2009b,c).

    It lists the reasons why life did not form on Earth:

    A) Complex life was present on Earth almost from the beginning with evidence of biological activity dated to between 4.2 to 3.8 billion years ago.
    B) Statistically, there was not enough time to create a complex self-replicating organism on this planet.
    C) DNA and complex organic molecules would have been destroyed by the environment of the early Earth.
    D) All the essential ingredients for creating life were missing on the new Earth, including, and especially oxygen, sugar, and phosphorus.
    E) Even proto-organisms would not have been able to survive on Earth.
    F) The reproductive strategies of Viruses which require a living host, proves an Earthly "RNA World" is imaginary and could not have created life on Earth.

    On Earth, the progression from simple cell to sentient intelligent being is due to the activation of viral, archae, and bacteria genes acquired from extra-terrestrial life and inserted into the Earthly eukaryote genome. What has been described as a random evolution is in fact the metamorphosis and replication of living creatures which long ago lived on other planets.

    [emphasis mine]

    Journal of Cosmology

    There's nothing special about the human mind. It is simply the result of the evolutionary process.


    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    And to clarify what seems to be a persistent misunderstanding on your part: I trust in universal meaning because I know that God exists.
    You don't know that god exists; you only believe there is a god, and you do so, because you are unable to comprehend the world around you.

    In that regard, you're no different than early humans who attributed to spirits and gods anything they could not understand or explain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    And correction: I did not say that pain and joy were pointless. I said that in a world without inherent universal meaning, pain and joy become pointless.
    Pain and joy do not require inherent universal meaning. Joy and pain, like all emotions, serve to help shape a person's personality. We can debunk your claim by substituting other emotions, like fear, for joy and pain.

    To suggest that fear is pointless, because it has no inherent universal meaning it totally absurd.

    Fear, like joy and pain and all other emotions is what causes people to act.

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    Re: God and The Meaning of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    Well, it was nice seeing you again anyway. A "coffee klatch" is two or more pals chatting over coffee and whatnot in a cafe. Pret a Manger is an eatery chain in Great Britain and the USA.
    Namaste.
    Well I can say that I have learned what a coffe klatch.
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  10. #390
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    Re: God and The Meaning of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    I repeat for the fourth time, the OP presents a hypothetical: IF God exists, then universal meaning follows; IF God does not exist, then universal meaning does not follow. There is no "insistence" in the OP either way.
    Of course there is an insstence there. One that states a god must exist. because no other alternative to a meaning of life is given other than an existence of a god.

    Inconsequential to you apparently, but not to the poster you misrepresent.
    It did not misrepresent, i stated quite clearly that words in bold were yours.

    Again, the OP requires no argument for the existence (or non-existence) of God. And again, if an argument were needed, I am fully prepared to make that argument, and have made that argument in the other extant thread (Dragonfly's) on the hypothetical non-existence of God. I'll gladly reproduce it here if you are interested.
    The argument assumes that meaning is inherent in the existence of a god. Otherwise there is no meaning to life. You could not state any more clearer that it is an argument for the existence of a god.

    Again, you are confusing me with others who have argued (eloquently, I might add) for their faith. Again, I remind you that I am NOT arguing faith; wherever I have argued for the existence of God, my argument is based on KNOWLEDGE, not faith. Please try to get this straight.
    and as has been pointed out your arguments are flawed because they always start from a position that a god is possible without giving any reason as to why we should consider it, just assume it is true. You show faith that existence is possiblre and then argue on that basis claiming knowledge that it is true.


    Go back and re-read the OP. No evidence or reason is required to discuss the universal meaning contingent on the existence or non-existence of a Creator God.
    The very first line of the op
    Without God, indeed without the concept of God, the meaning of the world, and with it the meaning of life, becomes nugatory
    Sounds like you need a god to exist to have meaning.
    And God's absence removes that meaning, yes.
    Which contradicts your denial that no evidence or reason is required to discuss the universal meaning.

    I agree with you. No God, no Meaning (capital M). Your view is covered in the OP. That possibility is addressed. Likewise the opposing view. My view is that without God there is no universal meaning; with God, there is universal meaning. That's my reason to be here, to argue that God is a necessary condition for universal meaning. And I've argued for this thesis in at Posts #47, #99, #102, #134, #149, #153, #171, #172, #174, #183, #185, #200, to name a few.
    I am not disputing that. You have taken a position that a god must exist to give meaning. Without, once again giving any reason as to why we need consider a god at all.

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