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Thread: God and The Meaning of Life

  1. #221
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    Re: God and The Meaning of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by zyzygy View Post
    Amen.
    Snert.
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  2. #222
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    Re: God and The Meaning of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    I have no idea.
    Agreed
    It gives the universe and our lives meaning.
    That is a personal subjective view and no different than saying that your personal meaning is the same as a universal meaning

    It changes inherent meaninglessness to inherent meaningfulness, though we cannot say what this inherent meaning is.
    I think you misread my post. I said what changes if it is different than what you think not if it doesn't exist.

    Everything.
    Why? How?

    Because without God the universe, life on earth, and mind are inherently pointless phenomena.
    Which is a belief that can exist with or without the existence of God(s) or a universal meaning to life, but it doesn't answer the question of WHY you believe it is inherently pointless Or HOW it is pointless
    Last edited by Quag; 02-13-18 at 07:30 AM.
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  3. #223
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    Re: God and The Meaning of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    So I ask again, please point out the discrepancy between my restatement of your view and your view.
    I am stating that as we cannot know what this universal meaning is its existence or non existence is irrelevant to humanity
    You are saying that, given a Creator God, unless man knows what the meaning is, man cannot trust in the meaningfulness of the universe.
    You are talking about trust which is in the realm of belief I am talking about knowledge. I am saying that you can continue to believe in a universal meaning (whatever you think it may be) but its existence or non existence is irrelevant as our lives will not be changed regardless. I am not saying do not believe I am saying your belief whether correct or incorrect changes nothing. Your statement implies I am claiming that unless we know it is wrong to believe.
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  4. #224
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    Re: God and The Meaning of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    Once again you show that you haven't paid attention. We've had this dance before, devildavid, earlier in this very thread.
    When I replied in good faith then, you left me standing out on the dance floor without a reply.
    Here's your chance to make it right.

    cannot gainsay the fact that some level of faith is at work in my view, but it is a different sort of faith than you perhaps have in mind. It's the sort of faith one may have in a trusted friend or a parent, but in this case directed at an Ultimate Unknown. If Creator God exists, then, without knowing anything about It and without the smallest understanding of what It is beyond the Mysterious Power behind the Universe and everything in it, I trust that my brief experience in this Universe is underwritten, even though I can't say in what way, and that's enough for me. More than enough. It's a great sufficiency. If the universe were meant, then I trust there must be some reason behind it, though I can't say what that might be. If the Universe is meant, then it possesses some inherent and universal meaning tout court.

    To make my point perfectly clear, my faith is faith (in the sense of trust) in the divine disposition of Creator God, that Creator God stands surety for the Universe and my brief experience in it. The existence of Creator God, on the other hand, is not a matter of faith for me; it is the only rational inference from overwhelming evidence.

    Trust in an unknown is trust in nothing. Trusting a friend or parent is far different than trust in a make believe thing. You don't know that this thing you trust in even is worthy of trust because you label it unknown. Trust in the unknown makes no sense at all. If it is unknown, you cannot possibly know that it intended at all or that the force that started things is capable of intention. Many things cause other things without intention. Your assumption of intention gives this force a human quality, but you dance around this. That things exist does not point to something that intended them to exist. But even if we were to say that things were intended it does not follow that it gives them meaning, it only means that it was purposely done by conscious entity and it has some meaning or purpose to that entity, but not necessarily to the things its created. We were all created by other human beings. Their intent in creating us is irrelevant as far as any meaning to our lives. Creation alone does not create meaning.
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  5. #225
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    Re: God and The Meaning of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Agreed
    Yes, God only knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    That is a personal subjective view and no different than saying that your personal meaning is the same as a universal meaning
    If all you're saying here is that all my views are personal and subjective, you're not saying much. All your views are personal and subjective as well. Everyone's views are personal and subjective.
    If what you're saying here is that if Creator God exists, then the universal meaning that the existence of Creator God bestows upon the world is only my personal subjective view, then you're either falling back on the truism that subjectivity is inescapable in order to discount the objectivity of universal meaning (and with it all objective meaning by the way) or you're saying that personal meaning and universal meaning are the same thing, which is false by definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    I think you misread my post. I said what changes if it is different than what you think not if it doesn't exist.
    What does your "it" refer to? If your "it" refers to universal meaning, then your question assumes that I claimed to know what the universal meaning is beyond a meaning that is universal, which I never claimed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Why? How?
    I've answered this already. Everything changes because all that lacked universal meaning now possesses universal meaning. The existence of Creator God changes everything in this way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Which is a belief that can exist with or without the existence of God(s) or a universal meaning to life, but it doesn't answer the question of WHY you believe it is inherently pointless Or HOW it is pointless
    I already answered this as well. See what I posted about Absurdism in my reply to you.
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  6. #226
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    Re: God and The Meaning of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by devildavid View Post
    Trust in an unknown is trust in nothing.
    The unknown is always involved in trust.

    Quote Originally Posted by devildavid View Post
    Trusting a friend or parent is far different than trust in a make believe thing.
    God is not make-believe, except to a certain brand of atheism.

    Quote Originally Posted by devildavid View Post
    You don't know that this thing you trust in even is worthy of trust because you label it unknown.
    A Power capable of creating the universe, life on earth, and mind is worthy of trust in my book, if not in yours. We're working from different books, you see.

    Quote Originally Posted by devildavid View Post
    Trust in the unknown makes no sense at all. If it is unknown, you cannot possibly know that it intended at all or that the force that started things is capable of intention. Many things cause other things without intention. Your assumption of intention gives this force a human quality, but you dance around this.
    The human quality derives from the divine. Trust in the unknown is answered above. Design implies intention.

    Quote Originally Posted by devildavid View Post
    That things exist does not point to something that intended them to exist. But even if we were to say that things were intended it does not follow that it gives them meaning, it only means that it was purposely done by conscious entity and it has some meaning or purpose to that entity, but not necessarily to the things its created.
    Intention implies meaning. All art teaches us this. All human invention does for that matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by devildavid View Post
    We were all created by other human beings. Their intent in creating us is irrelevant as far as any meaning to our lives.
    By proxy, yes, and the trust of a child in the parent follows naturally.

    Quote Originally Posted by devildavid View Post
    Creation alone does not create meaning.
    Answered above. Creation always implies meaning.
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  7. #227
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    Re: God and The Meaning of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    Yes, God only knows.


    If all you're saying here is that all my views are personal and subjective, you're not saying much. All your views are personal and subjective as well. Everyone's views are personal and subjective.
    If what you're saying here is that if Creator God exists, then the universal meaning that the existence of Creator God bestows upon the world is only my personal subjective view, then you're either falling back on the truism that subjectivity is inescapable in order to discount the objectivity of universal meaning (and with it all objective meaning by the way) or you're saying that personal meaning and universal meaning are the same thing, which is false by definition.
    No I am saying you have no way of knowing of if there is a universal meaning, only belief. If your belief is wrong nothing has actually changed for you because you have no way of knowing that your belief is wrong.


    What does your "it" refer to? If your "it" refers to universal meaning, then your question assumes that I claimed to know what the universal meaning is beyond a meaning that is universal, which I never claimed.
    No if God(s) decide to change the universal meaning then what changes for you? how would you even know?



    I've answered this already. Everything changes because all that lacked universal meaning now possesses universal meaning. The existence of Creator God changes everything in this way.
    Actually no you didnt you just reiterated the claim you haven't given anything remotely coming close to explain how or why.



    I already answered this as well. See what I posted about Absurdism in my reply to you.
    Again I have yet to see anything that is more than a reiteration of an assertion without any argument to explain why.
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  8. #228
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    Re: God and The Meaning of Life

    Here is the series of exchanges on meaning and meaningfulness, Quag. Please read them over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    The universal meaning if it exists is meaningless to us as a species since we have no way of knowing what it is. If it is meaningless to us then whether or not it exists or not cannot have any effect upon us.
    ...
    I don't know what you mean, Quag. Does that make your post meaningless? Can I ask the question, "What do you mean?" Or is this question meaningless on its face because I do not know what you mean? More to the point, what would prompt my question in the first place? Isn't my question prompted by the fact that I trust that the person I know as "Quag" means something by his post? Now you may or may not reply to my question. You may reply by repeating your post in more or less the same way. Or you may reply in a different way.
    Now, whether you are silent or reply in the same way or reply in a different way and I still don't understand what you mean, then according to you, your post is meaningless, whereas according to me, your post is meaningful though I am am unable to figure out what it means. In short, one does not have to know what the meaning of something is in order to trust, given the source, that it is meaningful.
    ...
    I can respond and try to explain the meaning of my post (such as I am doing now) and anyone on DP can see that response. Now if you continue to not understand the meaning of my post then yes for you it will remain meanignless.
    ...
    No, your post has meaning whether I grasp it or not -- that was my point. If I were to call it meaningless because I don't understand it (which I did not do, let's remember), as you call my post on universal meaning meaningless in se because you don't understand it, I would be contradicting myself, and I never do that. You, however, in calling my post on universal meaning meaningless in se because you don't understand it -- you, in this instance, are contradicting yourself inasmuch as all you can assert is that my post on the universality of meaning given the existence of Creator God, is meaningless for you.
    ...

    I am saying that, given a Creator God, even though man does not know what that meaning is, man can trust in the meaningfulness of the universe -- just as, given the existence of the reasonable "Quag," I can trust in the meaningfulness of his post even though I do not know what that meaning is.

    You are saying that, given a Creator God, unless man knows what the meaning is, man cannot trust in the meaningfulness of the universe.
    ...
    NO!!!!!
    Why are you changing my words?
    I am stating that as we cannot know what this universal meaning is its existence or non existence is irrelevant to humanity
    At that point you claimed I had misrepresented your view in this matter, and I asked you to please point out the misrepresentation.
    You post the following in reply:
    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    You are talking about trust which is in the realm of belief I am talking about knowledge. I am saying that you can continue to believe in a universal meaning (whatever you think it may be) but its existence or non existence is irrelevant as our lives will not be changed regardless. I am not saying do not believe I am saying your belief whether correct or incorrect changes nothing. Your statement implies I am claiming that unless we know it is wrong to believe.
    Do you think this reply fairly represents what you were saying in the course of our exchanges, Quag? I've bolded a few lines to help you see that I did not misrepresent what you were saying, and that what you are saying in your latest post alters what you were saying in the earlier posts.

    Now, in this latest post of alterations, you introduce the concept of relevancy. The only fair construction I can put on this new concept is that all along in the course of our exchanges whenever you used the word "meaningless" you meant "irrelevant." Is that correct?

    Also, in this latest post you introduce and attribute the moral or epistemological term "wrong" -- a word I never used in either sense. What point of mine are you misunderstanding here?

    Finally, the distinction you draw between knowledge and belief is idiosyncratic and perhaps incorrect. All knowledge is a form of belief. We've covered this before. Whatever you claim to know you believe and you believe you know.

    So, in the hope that we can move on, are you (still) saying that if you don't know the meaning of something, you cannot trust in its meaningfulness?

    Or are you (now) saying that if you don't know the meaning of something, you can trust in its meaningfulness, but its meaningfulness is irrelevant?
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  9. #229
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    Re: God and The Meaning of Life

    @Quag & devildavid & All who are interested in the question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by devildavid View Post
    ...
    If you saw written or inscribed or heard spoken or sung the following, can we not say that it has meaning even if we do not know what it means?

    U ne la nv i u we tsi
    I ga go yv he i
    Hna quo tso sv wi yu lo se
    I ga gu yv ho nv
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  10. #230
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    Re: God and The Meaning of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    No I am saying you have no way of knowing of if there is a universal meaning, only belief. If your belief is wrong nothing has actually changed for you because you have no way of knowing that your belief is wrong.
    Answered in #228.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    No if God(s) decide to change the universal meaning then what changes for you? how would you even know?
    You seem not to grasp the concept of universal meaning from divine creation, Quag. Your question appears to take universal meaning as meaning something along the lines of an presidential executive order. The meaning inheres in the creation by reason of the creation.




    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Actually no you didnt you just reiterated the claim you haven't given anything remotely coming close to explain how or why.
    Whether you recall what I posted earlier or not, I answer your question again here.
    Everything changes because all that lacked universal meaning now possesses universal meaning. The existence of Creator God changes everything in this way.
    This answers How and Why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Again I have yet to see anything that is more than a reiteration of an assertion without any argument to explain why.
    Do you not know what Absurdism is? At any rate, it answers your question.
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