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Suppose It's Proven That There Is No "God"

beancounter said:
If this occurs, I will be able to openly acknowledge my Atheism without Christians acting in an un-Christian-like manner toward me.

I suspect many Christians will commit suicide, as they will view their existence as meaningless.
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In a sense, that is man's true mission, it seems: to render life more than just being a seemingly meaningless existence.

Somewhere along the evolutionary chain, we decided that living just to eat and eventually be eaten was not good enough. Ergo...here we are.
 
Same old same old. I will still waste time because human beings aren't capable of the mythical "living life to the fullest" every minute. It just isn't in us. But I won't change radically because...psst...psst. I already know there isn't a god. It's no big deal. That doesn't take one thing away from life.
 
calamity said:
In a sense, that is man's true mission, it seems: to render life more than just being a seemingly meaningless existence.

Somewhere along the evolutionary chain, we decided that living just to eat and eventually be eaten was not good enough. Ergo...here we are.
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Existence, in and of itself is meaning enough. You don't need a "plan" handed down by some fabricated sky daddy to enjoy life.
 
VanceMack said:
Did you read what I stated because Im pretty sure I very clearly stated what I stated. You can claim to be an Atheist...but you are still influenced by a society built in Judeo-Christian values. 'Morality' is a construct. As such it has a source.
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Its source is man.
 
blackjack50 said:
Because there are no more moral absolutes. That is something required for the existence of good and bad. That is a recipe for anarchy and chaos. What? I’m supposed to be “good” because the government said it is the right thing? Lol. The government? Or because someone else said so? Don’t get me wrong...I have my own code. But to say there is no basis for what is right and wrong? There is no need to care then
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Mans' moral codes are all we have ever had and they have worked more or less over man's history.
 
blackjack50 said:
Because there are no more moral absolutes. That is something required for the existence of good and bad. That is a recipe for anarchy and chaos. What? I’m supposed to be “good” because the government said it is the right thing? Lol. The government?
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Wondering where moral laws come from is like wondering where grammar laws come from. It's stuff we make up to make a society functional. As we learn more, we change them, as a society (for example, physical abuse of children, "spare the rod, spoil the child", was the wisdom of the ages to discipline children, up until the 1960s when psychologists showed that it was actually harmful, and better means of teaching discipline were shown).

As far as whether the government is an inferior method to the churches to enforce the ethical codes of a society, that's the whole basis of the separation of church and state in this country. Here is from one of the framers of the Constitution himself on this subject:

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution...What influence in fact have ecclesiastical establishments had on Civil Society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny: in no instance have they been seen the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty, may have found an established Clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just Government instituted to secure & perpetuate it needs them not."
-James Madison
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So what is wrong with ascribing our most current social moral codes and mores to religion and eternal immutability and unquestionable sanctity, rather than just contingent laws and moral codes? You freeze and mummify them. You get people to stop asking questions, and you shut their eyes and minds to any new ideas, or new ways of seeing or doing things, to negotiation and compromise. After all, if you know eternal truth and the will of God, why even listen to any new ideas, be willing to ask questions, think of new ideas, or be willing to compromise or negotiate? You can see how that undermines the entire premise of a pluralistic democracy. You fossilize and mummify societies. It's no wonder that the most stagnant and backward places in the world today are also among the most religious.
 
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Angel said:
If God does not exist, then life is absurd.
If life is absurd, then nothing matters.
If nothing matters, then everything has changed.
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I think a lot of people live that way now...that's why we have rapists, murderers, and every other vile type we read/hear about...they don't care about themselves or anyone else...life has no purpose...
 
VanceMack said:
The Roman social structure was BUILT on their belief of Gods. There were hundreds of Gods in the Asian culture referenced in their societal constructs. Even the aboriginal peoples of the Americas followed the laws and teachings of great Spirits. The point remains the same.
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That they tried to justify their moral codes using made up gods is not important. The bottom line is that the codes came from man.
 
VanceMack said:
The Roman social structure was BUILT on their belief of Gods. There were hundreds of Gods in the Asian culture referenced in their societal constructs. Even the aboriginal peoples of the Americas followed the laws and teachings of great Spirits. The point remains the same.
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Just because ancient societies almost universally tended to do certain things does not mean that is the only way to do things. Almost all ancient societies, all over the world and all through history, also had slavery and misogyny. That doesn't mean that's the only way to do things.

Most educated, modern developed countries, from the Scandinavian nations to Japan, are leaving their gods and religions behind, and are none the worse for it. In fact, it seems they are doing well exactly because they have left behind these ancient dysfunctional mindsets.
 
Elvira said:
I think a lot of people live that way now...that's why we have rapists, murderers, and every other vile type we read/hear about...they don't care about themselves or anyone else...life has no purpose...
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Yes, and a study of human history shows how MUCH better societies were with their gods, deities, and spirits.

crusaders.jpg
 
ataraxia said:
Just because ancient societies almost universally tended to do certain things does not mean that is the only way to do things. Almost all ancient societies, all over the world and all through history, also had slavery and misogyny. That doesn't mean that's the only way to do things.

Most educated, modern developed countries, from the Scandinavian nations to Japan, are leaving their gods and religions behind, and are none the worse for it. In fact, it seems they are doing well exactly because they have left behind these ancient dysfunctional mindsets.
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NOT the point and m not sure why you folk are having such a hard time simply admitting reality. The absolute fact and reality is that societies and moral structures were based and built on a higher power, be it Judeo-Christian (relevant to our discussion) or any other society. In line with the thread topic I merely pointed out that you cannot avoid the influence, regardless of your professed belief. You personally may not believe in a God of any type...but unless you lived in the wild since infancy and raised by wolves, you were raised in a moral social structure with a foundation built on Gods laws. What personally believe about God is irrelevant.
 
beancounter said:
Existence, in and of itself is meaning enough. You don't need a "plan" handed down by some fabricated sky daddy to enjoy life.
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Unlike a dog, who is happy licking its own balls, man insists on more.
 
devildavid said:
That they tried to justify their moral codes using made up gods is not important. The bottom line is that the codes came from man.
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I think a more honestly stated position would be that there is a collapse in society when man Kills God and attempts to become God and redefine right and wrong based on mans own selfish and often childish wants. Thats not to say that the INDIVIDUAL isnt capable of the personal responsibility...but the collective...not so much.
 
Elvira said:
I think a lot of people live that way now...that's why we have rapists, murderers, and every other vile type we read/hear about...they don't care about themselves or anyone else...life has no purpose...
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so atheism leads to murder, rape and all other types of vile behavior.

Just like being of faith precluded any of it from ever happening.

Yeah, right.
 
calamity said:
Unlike a dog, who is happy licking its own balls, man insists on more.
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I think it's more of a case that man has been taught that they need more from ancient times when a typical life span was less than 30 years and death was around every corner.

Life is what you make it.
 
beancounter said:
I think it's more of a case that man has been taught that they need more from ancient times when a typical life span was less than 30 years and death was around every corner.

Life is what you make it.
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What I am driving at goes beyond religion. Man has seriously spent the past 6,000 years seeking something: civilization, love, art, competition simply for entertainment, etc.; beyond just eating and being eaten. I cannot think of any other animal that does this.
 
VanceMack said:
mans own selfish and often childish wants
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That's exactly what drives religion. Man wrote the bible. Man wrote the Koran. Man has written every single religious text there's ever been.

Nothing religious came from anywhere other than man.
 
Dragonfly said:
Suppose that somehow it's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no god.
Maybe aliens land on Earth and provide unquestionable proof.

Without getting bogged down in how it's actually proven, for the sake of my main question, just assume it's actually proven.
There is no "god". There is no Jesus. There is no Muhammad. There is no savior. There is no Jehovah. There is no heaven. There is no hell.
Nothing that's ever been taught to you about an/the "afterlife" is true. It's all been undeniably proven to be untrue.

1.) Knowing and understanding that there is no god, do you change the way you live your life?
2.) Do you change who you are?
3.) Do you change what you do?
4.) Does the previous "you" all of a sudden disappear and a new "you" take form?
5.) If you discover that the life you have right now is the only life you will ever have, forever, do you change who you are?
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1.) nope (minus some religious stuff)
2.) nope because religion has little to nothing to do with it
3.) nope (again minus some religious stuff)
4.) nope
5.) nope
 
Elvira said:
I think a lot of people live that way now...that's why we have rapists, murderers, and every other vile type we read/hear about...they don't care about themselves or anyone else...life has no purpose...
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Precisely. Somewhere in Dostoyevsky, in Karamazov as I recall, one of his characters agonizing over the question of God's existence concludes (famously as it turned out) that If god does not exist everything is permitted

Today's New Atheists and armchair atheistic philosophers haven't a clue as to the profound ramifications of their hobbyhorse.
 
Elvira said:
I think a lot of people live that way now...that's why we have rapists, murderers, and every other vile type we read/hear about...they don't care about themselves or anyone else...life has no purpose...
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Are you seriously trying to imply religious people don't commit crimes?

Do we need to remind you of the whole catholic church pedophile priest thing????
 
Angel said:
Precisely. Somewhere in Dostoyevsky, in Karamazov as I recall, one of his characters agonizing over the question of God's existence concludes (famously as it turned out) that If god does not exist everything is permitted

Today's New Atheists and armchair atheistic philosophers haven't a clue as to the profound ramifications of their hobbyhorse.
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So you're gonna reference a fictional book about the "evils" of atheism? :roll:

Dude, who once tortured and burned people alive after accusing them of being a witch?
 
Dragonfly said:
Are you seriously trying to imply religious people don't commit crimes?

Do we need to remind you of the whole catholic church pedophile priest thing????
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I would describe such ones as "having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power”...

They either deep down do not believe in God or they deceive themselves into thinking they can hide their actions from Him...
 
Dragonfly said:
That's exactly what drives religion. Man wrote the bible. Man wrote the Koran. Man has written every single religious text there's ever been.

Nothing religious came from anywhere other than man.
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Do you insist that there is not and never has been spiritual influence in that writing?
 
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