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Thai Cave rescue - boys could be stranded for months

Infinite Chaos

Infinite Chaos

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Rescuers are considering how best to bring to safety a group of boys trapped in a flooded cave network in Thailand.

The 12 boys and their football coach were found alive on Monday and have received medical treatment and food.
Divers reached them nine days after they entered the caves in the north of the country and became trapped by rising waters caused by heavy rainfall. Link.
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Amazing story and kudos to the British cave divers who found the boys. Having been in a flooded house where the only bathroom was downstairs - you know the rescuers came up through the water where the poor boys had to urinate.

Personally feel the best decision is to try and help the boys stay put. If your first experience of underwater swimming is in a flooded cave in absolute darkness and in incredibly cramped conditions - you are going to have mental scars for life.
 
I think you need to give it a little more thought. What is worse, sitting on a rock ledge in total darkness, with water that could be rising and no way out. OR, swimming with Navy Seals, with lights, guiding you out to safety and family.

Me, I would take the seals any day.
 
With a little training, they can get the boys out. Doing it one at a time will be time consuming, but it gets them out, and they need some hope.
 
Sabre said:
I think you need to give it a little more thought. What is worse, sitting on a rock ledge in total darkness, with water that could be rising and no way out. OR, swimming with Navy Seals, with lights, guiding you out to safety and family.

Me, I would take the seals any day.
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The seals did bring lights, food and medical care.

According to the following swimming/diving their way out would be very complicated for both the divers and the children.

From:

CNN: 9 days of hell: Inside the race to save a soccer team trapped in a cave

It will be a challenge for divers to take the children through the flooded section, Moret says.
"It won't be anything like diving that most people recognize. It will be diving in what is effectively muddy water, possibly fast flowing, with no sense of direction."
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Sabre said:
~ OR, swimming with Navy Seals ~
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Navy seals are there? They found the boys? The rescuer accents are particularly British..

Anyhow, getting them out one by one might be an option as humble states - the boys will still need training to go underwater. Doe we know if they can even swim? That's a huge ask for a child.
 
Sabre said:
I think you need to give it a little more thought. What is worse, sitting on a rock ledge in total darkness, with water that could be rising and no way out. OR, swimming with Navy Seals, with lights, guiding you out to safety and family.

Me, I would take the seals any day.
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I agree. One diver per child, just close their eyes and hang on- no need for full training either- they can be given full face masks. Beats waiting in a dark cave that could get flooded.
 
I learned to dive in one hour when I was in Puerto Rico from a Navy UDT friend.

I'm sure the kids can pick it up pretty easily.

But the problem is that they are 1 1/2 miles from the cave opening? They will need more bottles and will have to have a place to switch bottles out in route(?)
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Navy seals are there? They found the boys? The rescuer accents are particularly British..

Anyhow, getting them out one by one might be an option as humble states - the boys will still need training to go underwater. Doe we know if they can even swim? That's a huge ask for a child.
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Yeah, seals are there, keep up with the news. They are not training for deep sea diving but they are being given the training they need for were they are and what is necessary to get them out. You keep referring to them as a "child". This is a soccer team of 11 to 16 year olds, not helpless small children, being in a team, in that sport, prepares them to be tougher than the average kid out for a hike or something.
 
Sabre said:
Yeah, seals are there, keep up with the news.
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No, the navy seals were not among the rescuers. This is a child rescue story - not a political difference story. Why so aggressive? I want the kids rescued as much as anyone else does. I've been cave diving and it's horrible when you are lost and water is all around you. I was 15 when that happened and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

Sabre said:
You keep referring to them as a "child". This is a soccer team of 11 to 16 year olds, not helpless small children, being in a team, in that sport, prepares them to be tougher than the average kid out for a hike or something.
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Do you know if they can swim? Oh and yeah - under 18, you're a child.
 
Thai Navy Seals -- the Thai Navy Seals train with USN Navy Seals. Thailand is a formal defense treaty ally of the US and hosts the annual Cobra Gold exercises of US armed forces and another dozen forces of countries in the region.



rescuers-search-possible-entrance.jpg

The rescue operation increases as Thai rescue specialists assist a Thai Airforce soldier in descending to explore a possible opening to the Tham Luang cave in the Chiang Rai province on June 30, 2018. PHOTO CREDIT LILLIAN SUWANRUMPHA/AFP/GETTY IMAGES


The Nation is one of two English language daily and Sunday newspapers in Thailand....


US Pacific Command sends help

By The Nation

The United States has dispatched a team from the Navy Pacific Command to join the search for the group lost in a Chiang Rai cave, the US Embassy in Bangkok announced on Thursday.

“The United States is deeply worried about the young soccer players and their coach missing in Tham Luang Cave, as well as their families and supporters,” the embassy said in a statement.

“The United States Pacific Command (PACOM) has sent a search-and-rescue team at the request of the Royal Thai government to assist in locating the group.

“The United States team is now in Chiang Rai and delivering search-and-rescue experience and capacity to the already tremendous efforts underway by Thai authorities. We hope the players and their coach will be brought home quickly and safely.”

Source: US Pacific Command sends help



US Ambassador Glynn Davies is in his third year in the position and is a career foreign service officer of DepState.


I lived and worked in Thailand 13 years so I continue to have contact with many people there in all walks of life. As I understand it, USN Search and Rescue personnel are looking at three options: drill a hole from the top of the mountain to the boys, dam and divert the modest river that runs into the cave where the boys are and that overflowed during torrential rain that erupted after the soccer team entered the cave which is a popular place for locals and tourists, or swim in and swim 'em out.

That the cave is the longest in Thailand complicates the rescue time, distance, equipment challenges. In Thailand it is common to be held up for a while during the pounding rainy season while getting hung up somewhere is no surprise to anyone. However, being trapped in this cave at this time is the worst nightmare. Maybe damming and diverting the measly river then bringing the boys out might be feasible. The typical mountain river in Thailand that runs into a cave is about 15 feet across and comes up to the waist. It's not tough to dam and divert to include during this the season of torrential rains. Taking time to do it in the most feasible way is acceptable given we're looking a the soccer teammates possibly spending months inside there while their families, neighbors and classmates sweat it out too but on the outside -- and in the mud that only gets thicker, wider and deeper.

There are some very tough calls to make here and missions to execute but the Thais have brought in the best, i.e., the Brits and the Americans. Thais know also too much mechanical stuff with engines roaring tends to make a mountain unsafe and subject to crumbles, collapses, shifts.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
No, the navy seals were not among the rescuers. This is a child rescue story - not a political difference story. Why so aggressive?
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Read post #10, yes Seals Thai, US and British are among the rescuers. The only reference to anything about politics was your own notation, I might ask you, why so negative.

Do you know if they can swim? Oh and yeah - under 18, you're a child.
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Read that some can and some can not. Little loose on what most consider a child, to my mother I am still her child.

I can't fathom your position and obviously you can't mine, so lets just leave it at that.
 
Sabre said:
I think you need to give it a little more thought. What is worse, sitting on a rock ledge in total darkness, with water that could be rising and no way out. OR, swimming with Navy Seals, with lights, guiding you out to safety and family.

Me, I would take the seals any day.
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Bright ,ights if available, don't overcome muddy floodwater, violent currents and zero vis. There's also the matter of the distance involved and a narrow section too small for a tank to be worn, where the gear must be removed and pushed in front of the peson through the gap. Safer to stay put unless there's no option.
 
Sounds like the governor of the province is set on draining the cave and walking 'em all out. Yet the military government in Bangkok says the boys will have to learn how to dive their way out under assistance by Thai Navy Seals, USN Seals and some Brit rescue divers. It's good news so far albeit complicated so it's up to the experts to figure this through to a successful conclusion. These are kids but I wonder what their individual or group preference might be, i.e., to stay or to leave -- and if to leave, how. Or if they might have any preference.





02b17705f4fca7fcd95100e42281dc54

The mother of one of the boys trapped in the cave celebrates a photo that includes her 15 year old son at right. Photos and a video of the boys and the site were taken by Thai-international team of rescuers who located the team, provided food and medical care to the 13, to include their coach aged 25.




A massive and gruelling international operation was mounted to search for the boys, but has been beset by heavy downpours and fast-moving floodwaters

The boys have been given food and medical care by Thai Navy SEAL divers, but now authorities are struggling to determine what is the safest way to get them out. While friends and family of the missing boys have been celebrating their discovery, the governor of Chiang Rai province, Narongsak Osottanakorn, has urged caution, telling reporters that “Our mission (is) not done yet.”

“We will drain all water out from the cave then we will take all 13 people out of the cave. We are now planning how to send nurse and doctor inside the cave to check their health and movement. We will work all night. When the medics have evaluated the kids, we will care for them until they have enough strength to move by themselves, and then we will evaluate the situation on bringing them out again later,” he added.

According to Al Jazeera, the Thai military has said that the team will have to learn to dive in order to escape the flooded tunnels of the cave. Otherwise, divers will have to continue bringing the boy supplies, and keep them in place until the water recedes, but that could take months. And neither option is without serious potential risks, U.S. National Cave Rescue Commission coordinator Anmar Mirza told the AP:

“Supplying them on-site may face challenges depending on how difficult the dives are. Trying to take non-divers through a cave is one of the most dangerous situations possible, even if the dives are relatively easy.” He added that, “if the dives are difficult, then supply will be difficult, but the risk of trying to dive them out is also exponentially greater.”


https://www.yahoo.com/news/thai-soccer-team-found-alive-200515144.html
 
Manc Skipper said:
Bright ,ights if available, don't overcome muddy floodwater, violent currents and zero vis. There's also the matter of the distance involved and a narrow section too small for a tank to be worn, where the gear must be removed and pushed in front of the peson through the gap. Safer to stay put unless there's no option.
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My thinking exactly. We have a lot of armchair generals but cave diving experts have to be the ones to make the assessment if these kids are to come out alive.

Sabre said:
~ so lets just leave it at that.
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Agreed.
 
that's utterly terrifying. i hope that they can get them out. if the cave flooded that fast, i'd be concerned about the water continuing to rise.
 
You dont need to know how to swim. SEALS, or whoever run a line down to their location. They stick an octopus regulator into their mouths, fins on their feet to help propel them forward, grab the kids, and go.

I'm guessing a strong current will make the hand over hand on the lines difficult to dangerous but I dont get how this could take 'months' unless they need to wait for water conditions to change.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Amazing story and kudos to the British cave divers who found the boys. Having been in a flooded house where the only bathroom was downstairs - you know the rescuers came up through the water where the poor boys had to urinate.

Personally feel the best decision is to try and help the boys stay put. If your first experience of underwater swimming is in a flooded cave in absolute darkness and in incredibly cramped conditions - you are going to have mental scars for life.
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I think I heard on the news last night that the U.S. is sending some experts in this kind of thing to help? If the divers got to the boys, there is a way to get the boys out of there.
 
Sabre said:
Turns out none of them know how to swim..

View attachment 67235554

This link is to the most detailed information that I have found yet, far more than the regular news blurbs. Be forewarned, it is a very long article but as I said, detailed.

Thai cave survivors will have to learn to dive amid fears rainfall | Daily Mail Online
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That's going to be tricky. Lucky for them though, they have the best underwater personnel in the world working on getting them out alive.
 
Seven divers, including a doctor and a nurse, joined the group inside the caves in the north of the country after they were discovered alive on Monday.
~
Experts have cautioned that taking inexperienced divers through the dangerous corridors of muddy, zero-visibility waters would be very risky. Link.
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It's not just dangerous getting the kids out but also getting others like medics and other specialists through some really dangerous caves. The governor has suggested taking the strongest kids out first saying "Whoever has zero risk first can leave the cave first."

As an adult I know I'd want to stay with my peers and come out together. Can't put my own views and values onto scared innocent kids though.
 
If it were my kids I'd be a complete basket case, you'd have to straightjacket me.

Cave diving is the stuff of nightmares, I remember years ago watching Australian world champion cave diver Dave Shaw lose his life diving over 200m down Boesmansgat (Bushman's hole or bushman's cave if you like) in South Africa retrieving the body of Deon Dryer, he filmed is own death. Will never forget it.

 
British news reports mention the two British cave divers who found the kids, and the Thai Navy Seals who are working on securing the route and taking supplies down now the kids location is known. According to the ITV News graphic, the kids are half a mile underground and a mile and a half from the entrance. Approximately half of that distance is underwater, despite huge pumping out efforts already under way.
Their cave diving expert reckons a safe level of scuba training takes weeks if not months, and how to dive caves, with their special hazards, as long again. On top of that, half the kids can't swim. It's going to take time, whatever happens.
 
The length of time they have been there, and may remain, is insane, those poor kids/coach. Yeah, spelunking is dangerous stuff. Not a great idea for a field trip.

I wonder if they can rig lines so they can just follow the line hand over hand, and be clipped to it, etc.
 
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