Thai Cave rescue - boys could be stranded for months

PoS said:

I agree. One diver per child, just close their eyes and hang on- no need for full training either- they can be given full face masks. Beats waiting in a dark cave that could get flooded.

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Really awful situation to be in. My understanding is that they will need to navigate areas on their own that even the most experienced divers would find uncomfortable.

The escape route they’d be forced to take, would be three kilometres of very narrow passageways filled with mud and silt. There would be almost zero visibility for the children. They’d be given full face masks which are easier for beginners but there’s fear the boys won’t pick up the skills in time, especially as they’d be forced to navigate the small passages one by one. The tactic is fraught with difficulties and potential complications, especially if the children can't swim.

Another concern is the boys could be at risk of decompression sickness, if the air they've been breathing in the cave has been under pressure from the rising water. Thailand's interior minister Anupong Paojinda says, "If something happens midway, it could be life-threatening. Diving isn't easy, for people who have never done it, it will be difficult, unlike diving in a swimming pool."
https://www.9news.com.au/national/2...am-phone-home-but-could-be-trapped-for-months

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The international rescue operation includes teams from USA, UK, Japan, China, Australia among others, and a Belgian guy who owns a diving shop in Thailand and is active in support aspects.




Australian Federal Police and Defense Force personnel talk to a Thai rescuer (right) before diving after 12 boys and their soccer coach were found alive in Mae Sai, northern Thailand, on Tuesday. | AP





Search team surveys a stream in an attempt to find alternative way to go into Tham Luang Cave where 12 young footballers and their assistant coach have been trapped since last Saturday. Drilling equipment on Thursday afternoon reached the Tham Luang Cave in preparations for another effort to reach the victims believed to have been stranded inside by flash floods.




Thai Groundwater Authority which is into its third day of drilling says they believe they're getting to the main water source that flows into the cave. If this might be it, options include draining it, blocking it, diverting it. The governor of the province is set on draining the cave itself and walking 'em out, but that's a lot of draining to do during the rainy season. Cutting off the cave's major water source could open other rescue or escape possibilities however. Thai military rescue are meanwhile swarming the mountainside and exploring chimneys and chambers to see if anything connects to the boys location and an opening at the surface.




Rescue workers begin drilling in desperate bid to drain cave

US experts say focus on removing floodwater in cave where footballers disappeared

By The Nation


Rescue teams have begun drilling into the walls of Tham Luang Cave in Chiang Rai province in a bid to speed up drainage of floodwater that is proving the biggest obstacle to rescue efforts. The floodwater level is rising because of continued heavy downpours.


Interior Minister General Anupong Paochinda said on Thursday that it was important to pump out the floodwater so that the Royal Thai Navy’s SEALs could move further in their search of the cave system.

“The experts from the United States believe the best way is to reduce floodwater levels so as to facilitate the divers’ operations,” Anupong said.

However, he said, will not ignore the recommendation from the Engineering Institute of Thailand that the rescue operations focus on drilling shafts or through the walls between sections of the cave.

US experts say focus on removing floodwater in cave where footballers disappeared




Apparently the 13 are not strong enough or quite healthy enough just yet to dive or troop their way out. Reports of hypothermia are conflicting -- that is, the hot air and cold water temperatures to include water flow and levels inside the cave. The boys are also anxious to get out. Local lifelong residents are leading rescue authorities to numerous openings into the cave that are explored or unexplored.

Sabre said:

Turns out none of them know how to swim..

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This link is to the most detailed information that I have found yet, far more than the regular news blurbs. Be forewarned, it is a very long article but as I said, detailed.

Thai cave survivors will have to learn to dive amid fears rainfall | Daily Mail Online

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Thank you for posting that. I kept wondering why the boys went into the cave in the first place and the article is only one I've read that seemed to have an answer....it was an initiation ritual. oy.




There's talk of widening the area of the tunnel where it's too narrow to wear an oxygen tank because that might be one of the more difficult areas for the boys to get through. On the diagram it's the area after chamber 3.

Lursa said:

They dont need to know how to swim.

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That's a ridiculous thing to say. When I was a swimming instructor, one of the biggest hurdle to get anyone to swim, was conquering their fear of the water. With such a long route out, panic is the last thing you want someone doing.

Manc Skipper said:

British news reports mention the two British cave divers who found the kids, and the Thai Navy Seals who are working on securing the route and taking supplies down now the kids location is known. According to the ITV News graphic, the kids are half a mile underground and a mile and a half from the entrance. Approximately half of that distance is underwater, despite huge pumping out efforts already under way.
Their cave diving expert reckons a safe level of scuba training takes weeks if not months, and how to dive caves, with their special hazards, as long again. On top of that, half the kids can't swim. It's going to take time, whatever happens.

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An update on the three Brits who led the team. Specialist cave radio equipment had to be shuttled at high speed (a 3 hour trip was done in 1.5 ) by Derbyshire police to the airport for Richard Stanton, Robert Harper and John Volanthen's flight to Thailand.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44690688

gunner said:

That's a ridiculous thing to say. When I was a swimming instructor, one of the biggest hurdle to get anyone to swim, was conquering their fear of the water. With such a long route out, panic is the last thing you want someone doing.

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Thankfully cooler heads are on location, I had to hold my tongue at some of the "gung-ho" American posts so far.

Watched the feature on the Derbyshire cave rescue services this morning - all volunteers who have that special affinity for diving in the dark, in caves etc. Being a rough tough navy seal doesn't help unless you are also confident underwater. In the dark. Without your oxygen tank. Miles underground.

gunner said:

That's a ridiculous thing to say. When I was a swimming instructor, one of the biggest hurdle to get anyone to swim, was conquering their fear of the water. With such a long route out, panic is the last thing you want someone doing.

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Yeah, and that has nothing to do with knowing how to swim.

Serenity said:

Really awful situation to be in. My understanding is that they will need to navigate areas on their own that even the most experienced divers would find uncomfortable.

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Ive done night and wreck diving, so there's a lot of things to consider. If the currents are too strong or the size of the flooded caves are too narrow then certainly other means of rescue ought to be done.

However, its not impossible for highly trained rescue divers (and SEALs are) to bring children through if there's enough space and they have placed relays that guide them and have extra tanks of air. The kids dont need to learn how to swim in this instance, instead they cling to their dive buddy and just breathe- if they can keep their cool then they should make it out. But then again, if the Daily Mail graphic is correct (thats an if) then drilling might be the best way to rescue them.

Lursa said:

Yeah, and that has nothing to do with knowing how to swim.

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What are you talking about?

gunner said:

What are you talking about?

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*sound of forehead hitting desk*

I can't exactly say that I could swim before I could walk but the time space between the two wasn't all that long either.

But I know swimmers that (on account of my not getting any younger) can by now swim my hind legs (fins?) off. Thing is that a sizeable number of them will (and thus can) do it only in places that are tiled. IOW alone the thought of going into any open water (even a lake that will be guaranteed shark-free) is enough to make them freeze.

ON LAND.

Now transport that onto someone who has never learned to swim, has the natural inborn fear of submersion without ever having had the opportunity to overcome it, and is now expected to dive any length thru what is probably murky water and contains passages that can't even be negotiated with even a single tank on your back, and one gets the idea of the dangers of such an operation. Never mind a SEAL back and front and let's not even address the danger that a rescu-ee will potentially present for them as well.

As anyone who has ever pulled a floundering swimmer back to shore will know.

I have no idea of the geological strata (rock strength and amount of strata/distance earth surface to cave ceiling) there and no idea of (favourable conditions permitting) the drilling gear that can be made quickly available, but unless there's a pending flash flood due to rain squalls obviously not ceasing, DRILL.

Diving the kids out is the absolutely last option under these circumstances and unless it pressingly needs to be the most urgent one due to weather conditions, it's number one on the list of "Don't evers".

P.S. Just heard that more monsoon expected that, if the pumps can't keep up as it appears they won't, could affect the oxygen in the caves.

It looks increasingly like the Thai authorities are going to go for it in the present time. Everyone is expecting the rescue operation to be carrier out by the end of this week at the latest. The current break in the torrential monsoon rains have allowed some successful pumping of the cave passageways. The monsoon only gets radically worse from this point in the season so it appears Thai authorities have decided to seize the day.

The leader of the coup government arrived yesterday and viewed a Thai military run-through of simulated international rescue operations and evacuation from the scene.











Trapped boys could be rescued THIS WEEK, says Chiang Rai governor


: Governor of Chiang Rai province Narongsak Osottanakorn, addresses journalists near the Tham Luang cave complex. Reuters: Soe Zeya Tun



The twelve young footballers and their coach who remain trapped in the Tham Luang cave in Chiang Rai could be evacuated this week, according to Chiang Rai governor Narongsak Osottanakorn.

Governor Narongsak gave a press conference on Wednesday morning to say that if the weather remains good, condition are perfect to attempt to evacuate the group this week, with rescuers continuing to make preparations for an evacuation. However, the governor denied reports in Thai media that the boys will be evacuated today.

Meanwhile, an army spokesperson has said that no exact date has been sent for the evacuation of the boys and any rescue attempt is dependant on the water levels inside the cave. While the boys are currently safe on high ground, if the flood water was to rise further, an evacuation would be almost impossible and providing supplies to the group be would much more difficult.

Currently water is being pumped out of the cave at a faster rate than it is coming in, the spokesperson said, but water levels have not reduced enough to carry out an evacuation. Thai Navy SEAL divers and specialist medics have confirmed they will remain with the group until they are evacuated. On Tuesday medics said the boys had been given clean water to drink and special high calorie gels to give them energy and vital minerals and nutrients.

Also on Tuesday, Thailand deputy prime minister Prawit Wongsuwan played down reports that it could take up to four months to evacuate the boys.

In an interview with Sky News, diving expert Ben Reymenants who is at Tham Luang and involved in the rescue mission gave an insight into the conditions inside the cave. “This is one of the more extreme cave dives that I have done. It is very far, and very complex. When it starts raining the flow is so hard you can barely swim against it and the visibility reduces to zero,” he said.





The 12 young footballers and their assistant coach will be placed in the sterile isolation room of a hospital for one to two days after being brought out of the flooded Tham Luang cave before their parents and relatives will be allowed to see and visit them, according to a plan.

The youths will then be required to stay at Chiangrai Prachanukroh Hospital for at least a week pending results of lab test results on the samples collected from them, as part of precautions to be taken to identify and treat any serious diseases picked up in the cave, Public Health Permanent Secretary Dr Jessada Chokdamrongsuk told a press conference on Wednesday.


Source: Hospital plan after cave exit includes 2 days in isolation room

PoS said:

Ive done night and wreck diving, so there's a lot of things to consider. If the currents are too strong or the size of the flooded caves are too narrow then certainly other means of rescue ought to be done.

However, its not impossible for highly trained rescue divers (and SEALs are) to bring children through if there's enough space and they have placed relays that guide them and have extra tanks of air. The kids dont need to learn how to swim in this instance, instead they cling to their dive buddy and just breathe- if they can keep their cool then they should make it out. But then again, if the Daily Mail graphic is correct (thats an if) then drilling might be the best way to rescue them.

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The troubles with the diving option are (apart from all other aspects) those passages on the way out where even the experienced diver has to take his tank off and push it ahead of him in order to get thru. I think the "clinging to your driving buddy" really doesn't present much of an option there.

That said teaching the kids to dive, my skepticism of success aside, is probably better than doing nothing. I sure hope that there'll be enough time (pending weather won't provide totally adverse conditions) for the drilling option. In which case a vertical or near vertical passage the size of a Dahlbusch bomb or its derivative Fenix capsule would suffice.

But the weather is not on the side of the rescuers and they may have to act faster than drilling would take.

Fingers crossed.

Fact is during monsoon this cave becomes fully flooded normally. It becomes a 5 km swim end to end. Which is why no one has seriously discussed leaving the soccer boys in the cave four months till after the monsoon -- maybe five months.

Governor of the province is set on draining the cave and trooping 'em out alive and well. There are suggestions below of how to go about draining the beast to include the innovative American one to drill a shaft from below the cave and use a well-style evacuation of the water. The Thai interior minister favors this approach and he's all for it.

Some suggestions and proposals being discussed and examined at the moment in Thailand. They focus on the limits of diving 'em out and the preference to drill 'em out....

I think many fail to realise the size of the cave system, its 10 kilometres long with large caverns, the size of football fields, above the water level. The size and scope being part of the problem, divers would need to swim 2-3 kilometres underwater to get to the next cavern, then out of air etc. The biggest obstacle is the muddy water without air above. They can't see anything under the water and cannot hold their head above the water either, so a couple of KM's becomes a very long way indeed. When the cave is full of water its a 5 kilometre swim to the other end.


Cave diving uses the "rule of thirds" for air supplies. Use no more of a 1//3 of your air on the way in, allowing for the same (or hopefully less) on the way back, with a 1/3 as spare (so allowing you double time to make your egress if there are any problems). Air tanks should last at least 90 minutes each (assuming there is no deep diving required as the they'll use double the rate if at 10m depth), so the question becomes how far can they go in 30 minutes (or 1 hour if there's enough room to carry 2 tanks)? Perhaps 1/2 km at most if it's reasonably clear and unobstructed, but if it's tight with zero visibility then maybe only a 100m or so. Forward positioning of tanks become fraught with logistical problems the further they get in as it becomes a situation of diminishing returns.


I think you will find that drilling a hole from above the water level can allow the water to run out of the cave faster and so will lower the level more rapidly. Plus with the water running out of the cave it will create a vacuum which will draw the fresh air into the cave through the hole that has been drilled.

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The Americans have suggested a new way to drain the water out of the cave by drilling a shaft into the cave from below. Having a well-style pump to suck water out would facilitate its removal both more safely and more efficiently than has been possible so far, without requiring the lengthy and risky extension of power lines into the cave's interior.

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As I understand it, the cave is essentially a giant aquifer for water during the monsoons. It becomes a corridor for water, an underground stream bed. As I understand it, the water is entering the cave from above, in addition to in another place nearer its entrance, as indicated by the Dutch expert--an apparently new phenomenon (or at least it had not been noticed before). The cave has points of both higher and lower elevation. With water entering from a higher elevation, if each chamber had its own air vent at its ceiling, the entire cave would be soon filled with water. We simply do not know exactly how much pressure, or from what elevation, that water is coming from.

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We know that rescuers have already found several small "chimneys" which are connected to the main caves. There are probably dozens more. Unfortunately none of them (so far) is large enough to allow access. So, it is a relief to know the cave the soccer boys are trapped in is not an essentially sealed or containerized system. I've only heard of one of those that sounded like it would actually penetrate the cave--the one pointed out by the local villager. The other two "chimneys" were both found to be dead-ends, according to the reports I've seen, and were considered only as starting points from which to drill a shaft further down, with the "chimney" giving them a bit of a head start. What I understood is that they are drilling a hole through the cave wall, the hole being below the internal waterline and the water will naturally flow out the hole.

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I think diving 'em out would be the last resort. At this point it looks more like a drill and rescue operation. The American idea from Search and Rescue Command at Pearl Harbor sounds like the lead method among many to complement and support it.

gunner said:

What are you talking about?

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Good question. You brought up something not related to my post...now you ask?

Chagos said:

~ P.S. Just heard that more monsoon expected that, if the pumps can't keep up as it appears they won't, could affect the oxygen in the caves.

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One report I read today suggests the cave could be fully flooded if the monsoon this weekend is as bad as thought. Right now though more water is being pumped out than seeping in - BBC report just now says no rush to get them out.

Lots of conflicting versions of events.

Infinite Chaos said:

One report I read today suggests the cave could be fully flooded if the monsoon this weekend is as bad as thought. Right now though more water is being pumped out than seeping in - BBC report just now says no rush to get them out.

Lots of conflicting versions of events.

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They sent several months of food in because they are worried that in a few days they will be still there and that even the divers will have trouble getting to them after the next rains so now is the time to send in the food....however with-in a week they very well might be all drowned....nobody knows.

In the past most people had enough sense to stay out of these caves during the rainy season.

They're going to take them out today, apparently, they've pumped out enough water for the levels to have gone down and the strong currents have subsided. Some of the boys can't swim never mind swim against a strong current...wonder how much of their strength they've regained, they're going to need all of it.... godspeed.

Two British divers located the boys after diving through the cave. Probably they can extract the boys from the flooded cave one by one, if the Thai Marines are not capable of doing this dangerous task.

The divers, John Volanthen and Richard Stanton, had to navigate through a labyrinth of caverns and tunnels, both dry and flooded, with some barely wide enough for their diving equipment.

Volanthen and Stanton, who are members of the British Cave Council, described to colleagues the challenging hazards within the cave, including poor visibility, powerful currents in the floodwaters, extremely narrow passageways and one flooded area they said was about 5,000 feet long, half of which had no airspace to emerge if something when awry underwater.

"They are cave divers with experience of diving in very flooded caves all over the world and some rescue operations as well," Bill Whitehouse, the vice chairman of the British Cave Rescue Council, told ABC News of Volanthen and Stanton. "They had skills to go in through the flooded passages and lay a guideline for others to follow and clear obstructions to allow people to get through. So, they were the pathfinders."

"It's not like open water diving where you can just surface if something goes wrong," Whitehouse said. "If you have gone 200 meters down a flooded cave passing, if anything wrong you have to come out that 200 meters before you can put your head up above water."

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HERA the Stars said:

They're going to take them out today, apparently, they've pumped out enough water for the levels to have gone down and the strong currents have subsided. Some of the boys can't swim never mind swim against a strong current...wonder how much of their strength they've regained, they're going to need all of it.... godspeed.

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According to the regional boss there is no such plan to try today, but clearly they have decided to try something before the rains get here in a few days.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...e-boys-football-soccer-team-monsoon-rain-live

Every time I read this story, the updates, I nearly cry.

The fact that they found all these boys alive is nothing short of a miracle, and now the heart wrenching decision on how best to save them, the extreme risk in keeping them in there vs. the extreme risk of teaching them how to dive out of the caves... No option is perfect and it all carries with it the greatest of risk.

But there are men and women there from every corner of this Earth, working together, to the best of their ability, with the sole purpose of saving the lives of these boys, nothing could be more commendable and more difficult.

Such efforts saved the Chilean miners, such efforts once again... Using the best qualities of what humanity can be, will hopefully bring everyone out alive.

Jetboogieman said:

Every time I read this story, the updates, I nearly cry.

The fact that they found all these boys alive is nothing short of a miracle, and now the heart wrenching decision on how best to save them, the extreme risk in keeping them in there vs. the extreme risk of teaching them how to dive out of the caves... No option is perfect and it all carries with it the greatest of risk.

But there are men and women there from every corner of this Earth, working together, to the best of their ability, with the sole purpose of saving the lives of these boys, nothing could be more commendable and more difficult.

Such efforts saved the Chilean miners, such efforts once again... Using the best qualities of what humanity can be, will hopefully bring everyone out alive.

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Beautifully said Jet.

Jetboogieman said:

Every time I read this story, the updates, I nearly cry.

The fact that they found all these boys alive is nothing short of a miracle, and now the heart wrenching decision on how best to save them, the extreme risk in keeping them in there vs. the extreme risk of teaching them how to dive out of the caves... No option is perfect and it all carries with it the greatest of risk.

But there are men and women there from every corner of this Earth, working together, to the best of their ability, with the sole purpose of saving the lives of these boys, nothing could be more commendable and more difficult.

Such efforts saved the Chilean miners, such efforts once again... Using the best qualities of what humanity can be, will hopefully bring everyone out alive.

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Hip Hip

Now if only this was not all over something this stupid.......

Hawkeye10 said:

~ In the past most people had enough sense to stay out of these caves during the rainy season.

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The monsoon season has only recently gotten underway and January to April - normally dry - had a lot of rain so there's been a lot of water in the earth. As for in the past - from what I read it is an initiation ceremony to go in and write your name on the back of the cave wall. This might have been going on for aeons and I would imagine others got caught out in the past.

I just hope this "rite" is abandoned in future and no more lives put at risk.

On the rescue apparently rescuers can now walk almost a mile in without having to dive as almost enough water has been pumped out of the first two chambers but heavy rains are forecast in the next week.

Infinite Chaos said:

The monsoon season has only recently gotten underway and January to April - normally dry - had a lot of rain so there's been a lot of water in the earth. As for in the past - from what I read it is an initiation ceremony to go in and write your name on the back of the cave wall. This might have been going on for aeons and I would imagine others got caught out in the past.

I just hope this "rite" is abandoned in future and no more lives put at risk.

On the rescue apparently rescuers can now walk almost a mile in without having to dive as almost enough water has been pumped out of the first two chambers but heavy rains are forecast in the next week.

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I was reading that it is illegal to go in, and that the law is ignored.

If so then the government carries some blame, this time energy and money they are spending now is partly their fault, if people die that will be partly their fault.

Hawkeye10 said:

I was reading that it is illegal to go in, and that the law is ignored.

If so then the government carries some blame, this time energy and money they are spending now is partly their fault, if people die that will be partly their fault.

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Lets just pray that they can all get out safely and you can worry about all the other talking points after that.

Serenity said:

Lets just pray that they can all get out safely and you can worry about all the other talking points after that.

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Let's just pray for a big dose of warm fuzzies all around.....

Then that it gets decided that we dont do this again.

Too much to ask for?