• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

New Pictures of Chinese Buildup in South China Sea

RationalPolicy

RationalPolicy

Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2018
Messages
116
Reaction score
75
Location
New Jersey
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Stunning new pictures show the scope of Chinese building in the South China Sea - Washington Post
BEIJING — Sometimes you’ve got to see it to truly believe it. That is certainly true of a remarkable set of pictures published by a Philippine newspaper this week.
For years now, we’ve read about Chinese land reclamation and building in the contested waters of the South China Sea — construction that has put Beijing at odds with many of its Asian neighbors, as well as the United States.

Subi Reef.jpg
Subi reef. (Photo courtesy of Inquirer.net/Philippine Daily Inquirer)

In 2016, an international tribunal ruled that China’s expansive maritime claims had no legal basis. But Beijing kept building, insisting repeatedly that it was all for civilian, not military, purposes.

Few outside China buy that. Foreign experts, most notably the people at the Asia Maritime Transparency Initiative, were left to scour grainy satellite images for proof. Finally, we have better pictures.
Click to expand...

We all know that China has been building up these 'reefs' in the South China Sea for a long time now, and has blatantly ignored international law while doing so, but these fantastic images show the rapid progress they've made. These are looking like functional military installations already. What should our strategy going forward here be?

To me, we need to strongly partner with our allies in the region, like Japan, South Korea, and the Philippines, and other potential allies, like Vietnam, to push back on these illegal installations. Freedom of Navigation Exercises are a must, as are pushing our friends to assert their clear territorial claims. Beyond that, I'm not sure what else we can do, as the Chinese clearly have the force projection advantage here. Any thoughts?
 
We've been partnered with all them for at least 50 years. What now?
 
It's the most dangerous country in the world
 
American said:
We've been partnered with all them for at least 50 years. What now?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what we can do besides try to firmly entrench our alliances with the non-Chinese actors in the region. I truly thought TPP was the vehicle through which we could have done that, and we still could, but I doubt the President would make that move given his stated opposition to the pact. The only way we can effectively push back on the Chinese ambitions in this area is to ensure that everyone else is aligned against the Chinese in a block that will stick together even in the face of threatening actions by China. Without that sort of alliance structure, we have nothing. The Chinese will happily pick each one of these nations off, one by one, with trade pressure or military pressure. We don't have the ability to counter those actions alone, particularly as we cannot project our power to Asia as effectively as the Chinese can; it's their backyard, not ours. If we wish to keep the international order along the lines that we organized back after WWII, we need to push back against Chinese mercantilism, not allow them to set up their own 'sphere of influence' without interference.
 
RationalPolicy said:
I'm not sure what we can do besides try to firmly entrench our alliances with the non-Chinese actors in the region. I truly thought TPP was the vehicle through which we could have done that, and we still could, but I doubt the President would make that move given his stated opposition to the pact. The only way we can effectively push back on the Chinese ambitions in this area is to ensure that everyone else is aligned against the Chinese in a block that will stick together even in the face of threatening actions by China. Without that sort of alliance structure, we have nothing. The Chinese will happily pick each one of these nations off, one by one, with trade pressure or military pressure. We don't have the ability to counter those actions alone, particularly as we cannot project our power to Asia as effectively as the Chinese can; it's their backyard, not ours. If we wish to keep the international order along the lines that we organized back after WWII, we need to push back against Chinese mercantilism, not allow them to set up their own 'sphere of influence' without interference.
Click to expand...

Our navy does the talking for us; they maintain the sea lanes.
 
American said:
Our navy does the talking for us; they maintain the sea lanes.
Click to expand...

They do, but activity like this makes that job far, far harder. Well-versed Navy admirals like former Admiral James Stavridis, in his book Sea Power, states clearly that the South China Sea is the most likely zone of future naval conflict involving the US. If we don't take this seriously and truly prepare ourselves for a conflict here, we will be caught with our pants down.
 
Heh.


Jokes on them, with global warming causing a sea level rise, and all.
 
RationalPolicy said:
Stunning new pictures show the scope of Chinese building in the South China Sea - Washington Post
BEIJING — Sometimes you’ve got to see it to truly believe it. That is certainly true of a remarkable set of pictures published by a Philippine newspaper this week.


We all know that China has been building up these 'reefs' in the South China Sea for a long time now, and has blatantly ignored international law while doing so, but these fantastic images show the rapid progress they've made. These are looking like functional military installations already. What should our strategy going forward here be?

To me, we need to strongly partner with our allies in the region, like Japan, South Korea, and the Philippines, and other potential allies, like Vietnam, to push back on these illegal installations. Freedom of Navigation Exercises are a must, as are pushing our friends to assert their clear territorial claims. Beyond that, I'm not sure what else we can do, as the Chinese clearly have the force projection advantage here. Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

One high altitude stealth bomber and Subi Reef becomes Subi Shoal. Let them keep spending money on tactics that are straight out of 1944.
 
faithful_servant said:
One high altitude stealth bomber and Subi Reef becomes Subi Shoal. Let them keep spending money on tactics that are straight out of 1944.
Click to expand...

And exactly how would we do that? What would the consequences of attacking another nuclear power in that manner be? Do you know that China has developed significant missile defense systems that are capable of sinking our aircraft carriers before we can even get within striking range of their mainland?

You may think their tactics are straight out of WWII, but they are most definitely not. These are entirely artificial islands that are being created, and they are being plopped right in the middle of some of the busiest sea lanes in the world. Not only that, but the South China Sea area that the Chinese are defiantly claiming here likely has significant oil, gas, and other natural resources buried deep underneath it. Building these bases in the area closes off the possibility that other nations with sovereign claims can effectively assert those claims to their natural resources. There have already been several fishermen from multiple nations that have been killed or captured and held by the Chinese simply for fishing in their sovereign waters that happen to be claimed by China.

Your fantasy of dropping bombs on these islands is just that: a fantasy.
 
Dragonfly said:
So what?

This is chicken little fearmongering nonsense.

What's your biggest fear about this? What do you think China's end game is with all this?
If left alone, what might China do?
Click to expand...

China has already announced that area as an air exclusion zone, and they've announced their intention to establish a maritime exclusion zone through which no vessel may pass without a Chinese escort. In short, China is violating International Law and attempting to seize the entirety of the South China Sea. That's the problem.
 
humbolt said:
China has already announced that area as an air exclusion zone, and they've announced their intention to establish a maritime exclusion zone through which no vessel may pass without a Chinese escort. In short, China is violating International Law and attempting to seize the entirety of the South China Sea. That's the problem.
Click to expand...

Does the USofA do the exact same kind of thing?

And again, so what? What will China do if left alone? Suppose they accomplish what you say they are trying to do.
What's the problem?

Hows that effect anyone living in the USofA?
 
Dragonfly said:
Does the USofA do the exact same kind of thing?
Click to expand...

No.

And again, so what? What will China do if left alone? Suppose they accomplish what you say they are trying to do.
What's the problem?
Click to expand...

The South China Sea is rich in natural resources, and various countries in the region have claims to portions of that area. As other(s) have mentioned here, a huge amount of shipping flows through that area, and we are committed in principle and practice to freedom of navigation through international waters. We will not permit China to dictate what countries and what ships can pass through international waters.

Hows that effect anyone living in the USofA?
Click to expand...

It affects everyone living virtually everywhere. I'd have to go back and dig up the relevant articles, but I believe China is planning on imposing a fee for escort through those waters. We used to call that a tribute, and we've historically fought to eliminate such thuggery in the past.
 
Dragonfly said:
So what?

This is chicken little fearmongering nonsense.

What's your biggest fear about this? What do you think China's end game is with all this?
If left alone, what might China do?
Click to expand...

I'm less afraid of Chinese maneuverings than frustrated that we aren't doing anything to protect the current order of things that heavily benefits us (so I guess that would be fear of losing primacy in deciding how things are done on an international level). China is clearly looking to impose their own 'sphere of influence' on all of East Asia, Central Asia, Southeast Asia, and with the moves they have been making in the Himalayas, likely South Asia as well. Returning to the old-school pre-WWII mercantilist state of affairs would be harmful to the global economy, damaging to international human rights, and would impair American national security. That is China's long game, and it is fairly obvious from their moves here and in how they use their foreign direct investment in places like Latin America, Central Asia, and Africa to impose their extractive and exclusionary commercial order that they are moving strongly in this direction. This change in the way business is done internationally will hurt American companies in their ability to compete, as Chinese companies are artificially supported by their government and the Chinese government uses state power in ways we are averse to (cybertheft, patent tomfoolery) in order to help their businesses compete.

If China is left alone to continue their activities, they will likely further build in the South China Sea, cementing their illegal claims over Vietnamese and Philippine sovereign territory and making it far more difficult for the trade I mentioned in my prior comment to pass through the area without (paid) Chinese escort. They also have established virtual no-fly zones in this area (international waters, mind you), which is a dangerous precedent to allow. Any major ground we cede here will be used against our formal treaty ally Japan in the China-Japan dispute over the Senkaku Islands in the strait separating those two nations. If they happen to get into a quarrel over the barren islands in the region, we are obligated to come to Japan's full defense.
 
Here we go yet again with the stunning hypocrisy of the USA. China didn't steal a nation from some group of indigenous peoples like the USA has done in Hawaii, the Philippines, Cuba, Nicaragua, Guatemala, ... and the Chagos Islands, where the US abandoned all the Chagos Islanders on the dock in another country and took over their nation.

Stealing a Nation by John Pilger

 
RationalPolicy said:
And exactly how would we do that? What would the consequences of attacking another nuclear power in that manner be? Do you know that China has developed significant missile defense systems that are capable of sinking our aircraft carriers before we can even get within striking range of their mainland?

You may think their tactics are straight out of WWII, but they are most definitely not. These are entirely artificial islands that are being created, and they are being plopped right in the middle of some of the busiest sea lanes in the world. Not only that, but the South China Sea area that the Chinese are defiantly claiming here likely has significant oil, gas, and other natural resources buried deep underneath it. Building these bases in the area closes off the possibility that other nations with sovereign claims can effectively assert those claims to their natural resources. There have already been several fishermen from multiple nations that have been killed or captured and held by the Chinese simply for fishing in their sovereign waters that happen to be claimed by China.

Your fantasy of dropping bombs on these islands is just that: a fantasy.
Click to expand...

This is nothing more than propaganda. You seek to instill fear through telling lies.

Oil companies have been through there extensively and there is no oil reserves in that area. Nor has any fisherman been inconvenienced beyond not being able to use the immediate area. Nor has any ships passing through those lanes been disturbed. There claim of authority does no more than overlap the already existing overlapping claims of ownership to that area that has existed since those countries first came into existence.

I would say your fantasy is as harmful as any fantasy to drop bombs.
 
humbolt said:
China has already announced that area as an air exclusion zone, and they've announced their intention to establish a maritime exclusion zone through which no vessel may pass without a Chinese escort. In short, China is violating International Law and attempting to seize the entirety of the South China Sea. That's the problem.
Click to expand...
Citation please, or otherwise we have another example of fear mongering through lies.

China has been in negotiations with the other countries who dispute the territory for decades without any such pronouncements.
 
humbolt said:
No.



The South China Sea is rich in natural resources, and various countries in the region have claims to portions of that area. As other(s) have mentioned here, a huge amount of shipping flows through that area, and we are committed in principle and practice to freedom of navigation through international waters. We will not permit China to dictate what countries and what ships can pass through international waters.



It affects everyone living virtually everywhere. I'd have to go back and dig up the relevant articles, but I believe China is planning on imposing a fee for escort through those waters. We used to call that a tribute, and we've historically fought to eliminate such thuggery in the past.
Click to expand...

Again citation please. If you are talking about the only natural resource that does exist there which is fishing then you should understand that all the countries still do fish there without hinderence and all the countries claim a right to fish there. As well fish follow currents not international borders.

Demonstrate one instance of china cutting off the very shipping trade that they too are economically dependent on a free shipping lane.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom