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New Pictures of Chinese Buildup in South China Sea

RationalPolicy said:
Stunning new pictures show the scope of Chinese building in the South China Sea - Washington Post
BEIJING — Sometimes you’ve got to see it to truly believe it. That is certainly true of a remarkable set of pictures published by a Philippine newspaper this week.


We all know that China has been building up these 'reefs' in the South China Sea for a long time now, and has blatantly ignored international law while doing so, but these fantastic images show the rapid progress they've made. These are looking like functional military installations already. What should our strategy going forward here be?

To me, we need to strongly partner with our allies in the region, like Japan, South Korea, and the Philippines, and other potential allies, like Vietnam, to push back on these illegal installations. Freedom of Navigation Exercises are a must, as are pushing our friends to assert their clear territorial claims. Beyond that, I'm not sure what else we can do, as the Chinese clearly have the force projection advantage here. Any thoughts?
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RationalPolicy:

Not buying their goods and services, the profits of which go partly to funding such island construction might be a good start. Other than that, wot you said is probably the best course.

More realistically, acknowledging the limits of American global economic and military power and deciding to actually partner with, rather than just using, other states would be a good idea. India and Indonesia will be vital to that possible policy. Ultimately, realising that China is a rising Asian/Pacific superpower and that it will inevitably seek to exert hegemony in its coastal near-abroad and across Eurasia is important. The question will be how far is the USA willing to go to prevent China from rising and what would be the likely consequences of trying to keep China in a middle-power status? Is America willing to risk war to do so? If not, then lots of creative thinking and paradigm shifting will be needed.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
soylentgreen said:
Citation please, or otherwise we have another example of fear mongering through lies.

China has been in negotiations with the other countries who dispute the territory for decades without any such pronouncements.
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From the Council on Foreign Relations: "Ensuring freedom of navigation is another critical interest of the United States and other regional states. Although China claims that it supports freedom of navigation, its insistence that foreign militaries seek advance permission to sail in its two-hundred-mile EEZ casts doubt on its stance. China's development of capabilities to deny American naval access to those waters in a conflict provides evidence of possible Chinese intentions to block freedom of navigation in specific contingencies."

When I find the statement from the Chinese which directly expresses their intent to do as I stated, I'll post it for you. It's been some months since I read it.
 
Subi Reef is a reef in the Spratly Islands of the South China Sea located southwest of Philippine-occupied Thitu Island. The United Nations-backed Permanent Court of Arbitration said China's actions were clear violations of the country's sovereignty. But President Rodrigo Duterte shifted government policy in the disputed waters to set aside the international court ruling in favor of warmer relations with China. If the president of the Philippines is happy with the militarization of the Spratly Islands, we can't do anything about it. Duterte's main concern is investments from China.
 
soylentgreen said:
Again citation please. If you are talking about the only natural resource that does exist there which is fishing then you should understand that all the countries still do fish there without hinderence and all the countries claim a right to fish there. As well fish follow currents not international borders.

Demonstrate one instance of china cutting off the very shipping trade that they too are economically dependent on a free shipping lane.
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I believe you're misinformed. Exactly what do you think Air Defense Exclusion Zone and Maritime Exclusion Zone mean? What do you think the purpose might be for China to build artificial islands on reefs that were submerged at high tide, and militarize them? Anyway, it's been a while since I discussed this topic, and I don't usually save links for extended periods, so I'll have to go back and find them again, which will take some time. I'll get back to you.
 
humbolt said:
From the Council on Foreign Relations: "Ensuring freedom of navigation is another critical interest of the United States and other regional states. Although China claims that it supports freedom of navigation, its insistence that foreign militaries seek advance permission to sail in its two-hundred-mile EEZ casts doubt on its stance. China's development of capabilities to deny American naval access to those waters in a conflict provides evidence of possible Chinese intentions to block freedom of navigation in specific contingencies."

When I find the statement from the Chinese which directly expresses their intent to do as I stated, I'll post it for you. It's been some months since I read it.
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In other words all you have is america stirring up fear of china through a propaganda war. And china doing nothing more than talking.

Normally not a bother because even the americans realise that this is nothing more than an exercise in statesmanship.
 
humbolt said:
I believe you're misinformed. Exactly what do you think Air Defense Exclusion Zone and Maritime Exclusion Zone mean? What do you think the purpose might be for China to build artificial islands on reefs that were submerged at high tide, and militarize them? Anyway, it's been a while since I discussed this topic, and I don't usually save links for extended periods, so I'll have to go back and find them again, which will take some time. I'll get back to you.
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It means absolutely **** all in an area where such lines do in fact overlap each other. It means china is playing its usual games of diplomacy that do absolutely nothing to change the situation of border and territory dispute that has always existed there.
 
soylentgreen said:
In other words all you have is america stirring up fear of china through a propaganda war. And china doing nothing more than talking.

Normally not a bother because even the americans realise that this is nothing more than an exercise in statesmanship.
Click to expand...

If that's your take from what I quoted, I won't bother looking up the information. If building military installations in contested territory is talking from your perspective, I'd hate to see how you might characterize actual military action on their part.
 
soylentgreen said:
It means absolutely **** all in an area where such lines do in fact overlap each other. It means china is playing its usual games of diplomacy that do absolutely nothing to change the situation of border and territory dispute that has always existed there.
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Ramming and sinking the ships of other nations isn't diplomacy. I don't know what you think diplomacy actually is, but it sure as hell isn't that. China is in violation of international law and no excuse you can offer supports your contention that they're merely engaged in a diplomatic positioning to peacefully settle the disputes in the region.
 
RationalPolicy said:
Your fantasy of dropping bombs on these islands is just that: a fantasy.
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I am afraid that that is largely the problem of the world today, Americans largely live in this fantasy world created for them by US propaganda, much of it right out of Hollywood.

One would hope that if enough Americans were able to escape this huge fantasy bubble, cooler heads would prevail.
 
cuban smokes said:
OK, WaPo = fake news ...............
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Buddy, I hate to burst your bubble, but the Chinese have been building such facilities for quite some time, and shrieking "fake news" just because you don't like that fact doesn't change reality.
 
humbolt said:
Ramming and sinking the ships of other nations isn't diplomacy. I don't know what you think diplomacy actually is, but it sure as hell isn't that. China is in violation of international law and no excuse you can offer supports your contention that they're merely engaged in a diplomatic positioning to peacefully settle the disputes in the region.
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Diplomacy is invading Iraq and Afghanistan all based on the most transparent of lies. Diplomacy is bringing nuclear weapons to the Korean peninsula in 1958 in contravention of the armistice agreement. Diplomacy is over half a century of the most evil kind of terrorism against Cuba.

The list of US "diplomacies" is endless.
 
humbolt said:
If that's your take from what I quoted, I won't bother looking up the information. If building military installations in contested territory is talking from your perspective, I'd hate to see how you might characterize actual military action on their part.
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So basically having found nothing that backs your propagandist fear mongering you find an excuse instead. Got it.
 
American said:
We've been partnered with all them for at least 50 years. What now?
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Wrong !


QUOTE --- "If spying is the world's second oldest profession, the government of China has given it a new, modern-day twist, enlisting an army of spies not to steal military secrets but the trade secrets and intellectual property of American companies. It's being called "the great brain robbery of America."


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-great-brain-robbery-china-cyber-espionage/




QUOTES ---- "China is alleged to have begun a widespread effort to acquire U.S. military technology and classified information and the trade secrets of U.S. companies.[1][2] The Chinese government is accused of stealing trade secrets and technology, often from companies in the United States, to help support its long-term military and commercial development"


" The People's Republic of China has used a number of methods to covertly gather intelligence in the United States.[9][10][11][12][13][14] Individuals attempt to obtain targeted information from open sources such as libraries, research institutions and unclassified databases.[9] Chinese travelers are recruited to carry out specific intelligence activities, and the Chinese government debriefs returnees from exchange programs, trade missions and scientific-cooperation programs.[15] Chinese citizens may be coerced to cooperate in acting classes"


" In January 2018, a former CIA officer named Jerry Chun Shing Lee[nb 1] was arrested at John F. Kennedy International Airport, on suspicion of helping dismantle the CIA's network of informants in China."




QUOTE ---- " “Xu, a Chinese national, is being held accountable for engaging in economic espionage against an American company,” said Acting Assistant Attorney General Boente. “Xu not only stole high tech trade secrets from his U.S. employer – a federal crime – he did so both for his own profit and intending to benefit the Chinese government."


https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/chin...c-espionage-and-theft-trade-secret-us-company





QUOTE --- "China’s use of the practice first began to strain relations with the U.S. in the early 2000s. By 2011, the scope of Chinese theft forced the issue into the limelight. In 2014, marking the first instance of attaching criminal charges to state hackers, the U.S. Justice Department obtained indictments for five Chinese military officers for stealing trade secrets, such as technical data, and intelligence on trade negotiations"




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_espionage_in_the_United_States






Major Lambda
 
Dragonfly said:
We could just not really f'n care, because it's generally nothing to care about.
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In national and global strategic planning and operations that's called the Ostrich Policy which has disappeared many practicing governments and nations over thousands of years thx.



Dragonfly said:
Does the USofA do the exact same kind of thing?

And again, so what? What will China do if left alone? Suppose they accomplish what you say they are trying to do.
What's the problem?

Hows that effect anyone living in the USofA?
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Strategic thinking and phases of it go beyond the moment and the present circumstances. It also identifies the present strategic agenda and deals with it going forward in steps and stages. Think geostrategy, act locally.




soylentgreen said:
Citation please, or otherwise we have another example of fear mongering through lies.

China has been in negotiations with the other countries who dispute the territory for decades without any such pronouncements.
Click to expand...

CCP Boyz in Beijing have violated the Declaration on the Conduct of the Parties in the South China Sea -- both of 'em in 2002 and again in 2012. The negotiations were initiated each time by the ten member nations of the Association of Southeast Asia Nations: Indonesia, Philippines, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Myanmar, Malaysia, Singapore, Bunei. Current new negotiations by Asean have extracted CCP Boyz agreement to recognize certain of the rulings of the International Court of Arbitration in The Hague which ruled in 2016 every CCP Boyz claim in the SCS is contrary to the International Convention of the Law of the Sea. The ten Asean nations have banded together to prevent CCP Boyz in Beijing picking 'em off one by one, so the Asean folk are pretty smart cookies too.




soylentgreen said:
In other words all you have is america stirring up fear of china through a propaganda war. And china doing nothing more than talking.

Normally not a bother because even the americans realise that this is nothing more than an exercise in statesmanship.
Click to expand...

CCP Boyz in Beijing are building and arming in the SCS. The entire region is alarmed. Hainan Island looks like Britain during the buildup to D-Day.





soylentgreen said:
It means absolutely **** all in an area where such lines do in fact overlap each other. It means china is playing its usual games of diplomacy that do absolutely nothing to change the situation of border and territory dispute that has always existed there.
Click to expand...

CCP Boyz in Beijing have claimed 80% of the SCS as exclusively Chinese. The Tribunal in The Hague said forget it and forget it completely cause CCP Boyz in Beijing signed the UNILOS in 1997.




soylentgreen said:
So basically having found nothing that backs your propagandist fear mongering you find an excuse instead. Got it.
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Au contraire -- you've missed it completely, entirely and miserably. I'm being generous to you in saying what I just said btw.
 
Major Lambda said:
Pay attention to detail and practice reading comprehension ! ------> "Stunning new pictures show the scope of Chinese building in the South China Sea." - Washington Post








Major Lambda
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Oh look, another pointless post from you. What a surprise.....not.
 
Tangmo said:
Au contraire -- you've missed it completely, entirely and miserably. I'm being generous to you in saying what I just said btw.
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No, your just repeating the nonsense fear mongering propaganda that you always do.
 
soylentgreen said:
No, your just repeating the nonsense fear mongering propaganda that you always do.
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The nations and the elites of the region are mortified by the belligerence and bellicosity of your CCP Boyz in Beijing. The populations from Japan through the Asean countries to India have been bullied by the overbearing China for thousands of years. They know the drill and they do not accept it in the 21st century. They positively look to USA to balance CCP Dictator-Tyrants in Beijing and to hold 'em off throughout the maritime region. India too most recently. Obama maintained an overall sensitive and tenuous seesaw strategic balance but Trump is completely oblivious to it.

The trigger remains the Scarborough Shoal in the Philippine EEZ and off Luzon island which contains Manila. Obama made clear face to face to Xi Jinping when Xi assumed full power in 2013 Scarborough was the tipping point and not to go there. Obama said this to Xi each time they met. Xi took it as seriously as he needed to and CCP has not been assertive at Scarborough. CCP ships are always there but they do nothing except shoo away Phils fishermen. Nor has CCP tried to take possession or to build there. Xi also knows Duterte in the Phils would be called to account at home by the military and the population if Duterte capitulated on Scarborough. The shoal is the extremely sensitive issue in the Phils which is a formal U.S. defense treaty ally.

Scarborough Shoal is the Polish Corridor of the region. CCP Boyz in Beijing need Scarborough to complete their planned triangulation presence in the SCS. The Boyz control the Paracels in the east off Vietnam after invading the islands to take control, back in the 1970s and again in the 1980s. CCP are militarily present in the Spratly islands in the south of the Sea. Scarborough is in the northeast of the sea and east of Hainan island where the CCP South Fleet is based, the largest of the PLA Navy three fleets. The strategically vital Bushi Strait access point to the western Pacific is between Scarborough and Taiwan, so he who controls Bushi controls SCS access and the traffic flow west and north. Bushi continues to be dominated by the U.S., Phils, Taiwan, Japan, SK all of which have direct and vital interest in its security.

Youse supporters and admirers of the CCP Boyz of Beijing need to know a vital reality. The maritime strategic geography of the region is a killer to China. It always has been and it always will be fatal. Because from Japan to Singapore the east coast of China is closed off from the Pacific by chains of islands. China has never controlled the islands nor can it control 'em even by all out war. China navy has only two direct access routes to the western Pacific and they are controlled by Japan-USA and the small countries of the region. One is the Myiako Strait between Okinawa and Taiwan and the other is the Bushi Strait. PLA Navy is thus encased on the continental shelf between the island chains and its east coast. PLA Navy is a sitting duck there to US and allied naval and air forces. A shooting gallery in shallow waters it is. Beijing without Scarborough Shoal is a paper dragon and the dragon is a fantasy figure as it is. Youse CCP boyz need to give up the ghost. Youse can start by abandoning the innocent victim and harmless bystander stuff.
 
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Tangmo said:
The nations and the elites of the region are mortified by the belligerence and bellicosity of your CCP Boyz in Beijing. The populations from Japan through the Asean countries to India have been bullied by the overbearing China for thousands of years. They know the drill and they do not accept it in the 21st century. They positively look to USA to balance CCP Dictator-Tyrants in Beijing and to hold 'em off throughout the maritime region. India too most recently. Obama maintained an overall sensitive and tenuous seesaw strategic balance but Trump is completely oblivious to it.

The trigger remains the Scarborough Shoal in the Philippine EEZ and off Luzon island which contains Manila. Obama made clear face to face to Xi Jinping when Xi assumed full power in 2013 Scarborough was the tipping point and not to go there. Obama said this to Xi each time they met. Xi took it as seriously as he needed to and CCP has not been assertive at Scarborough. CCP ships are always there but they do nothing except shoo away Phils fishermen. Nor has CCP tried to take possession or to build there. Xi also knows Duterte in the Phils would be called to account at home by the military and the population if Duterte capitulated on Scarborough. The shoal is the extremely sensitive issue in the Phils which is a formal U.S. defense treaty ally.

Scarborough Shoal is the Polish Corridor of the region. CCP Boyz in Beijing need Scarborough to complete their planned triangulation presence in the SCS. The Boyz control the Paracels in the east off Vietnam after invading the islands to take control, back in the 1970s and again in the 1980s. CCP are militarily present in the Spratly islands in the south of the Sea. Scarborough is in the northeast of the sea and east of Hainan island where the CCP South Fleet is based, the largest of the PLA Navy three fleets. The strategically vital Bushi Strait access point to the western Pacific is between Scarborough and Taiwan, so he who controls Bushi controls SCS access and the traffic flow west and north. Bushi continues to be dominated by the U.S., Phils, Taiwan, Japan, SK all of which have direct and vital interest in its security.

Youse supporters and admirers of the CCP Boyz of Beijing need to know a vital reality. The maritime strategic geography of the region is a killer to China. It always has been and it always will be fatal. Because from Japan to Singapore the east coast of China is closed off from the Pacific by chains of islands. China has never controlled the islands nor can it control 'em even by all out war. China navy has only two direct access routes to the western Pacific and they are controlled by Japan-USA and the small countries of the region. One is the Myiako Strait between Okinawa and Taiwan and the other is the Bushi Strait. PLA Navy is thus encased on the continental shelf between the island chains and its east coast. PLA Navy is a sitting duck there to US and allied naval and air forces. A shooting gallery in shallow waters it is. Beijing without Scarborough Shoal is a paper dragon and the dragon is a fantasy figure as it is. Youse CCP boyz need to give up the ghost. Youse can start by abandoning the innocent victim and harmless bystander stuff.
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You make the same mistake as always. Just because i find fault with your propaganda does not make me a supporter of the chinese. It merely points out the fault in your thinking.

We in the pacific have as much to be concerned about with american intrusion as we do chinese. It still is nothing more than picking the lesser of two evils.
 
soylentgreen said:
You make the same mistake as always. Just because i find fault with your propaganda does not make me a supporter of the chinese. It merely points out the fault in your thinking.

We in the pacific have as much to be concerned about with american intrusion as we do chinese. It still is nothing more than picking the lesser of two evils.
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Youse pick on only the one while youse always try to give the other a free ride.

Youse always present matters in black and white -- good guy bad guy with USA as the perpetual bad guy. The fact needs pointing out and youse posts need to be both balanced and countered.

Only one side for instance is guilty of propaganda and that is USA. Wrong again and transparently wrong -- one sided shoulder to shoulder wrong with Beijing as always. If the Boyz in Beijing hate me they luv youse. Unconditionally.
 
Tangmo said:
Youse pick on only the one while youse always try to give the other a free ride.

Stunning hypocrisy which is always the case as the US and its brainwashed citizenry, press, ... constantly bad mouth others for things the USA is much much more practiced in.

Youse always present matters in black and white -- good guy bad guy with USA as the perpetual bad guy. The fact needs pointing out and youse posts need to be both balanced and countered.

And you do this, right? [That is the most hilarious thing ever!]

Only one side for instance is guilty of propaganda and that is USA. Wrong again and transparently wrong -- one sided shoulder to shoulder wrong with Beijing as always. If the Boyz in Beijing hate me they luv youse. Unconditionally.
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It's not a matter of one side or the other doing propaganda - that is a given. What is important is that the US propaganda system is the best the world has ever seen. It was so good the Nazis adopted it. What does a free and open country need with a massive propaganda system? Answer: it needs totally brainwashed citizens who will avidly support the myriad illegal invasions the US always commits.

Come on, be realistic! Around 93% of the US years in existence the US has been at war. There isn't any country that comes close to this level of war mongering.

The US is saturated with militaristic images, movies, news reports, propaganda, schooling, ... . USians live and breathe war and the military,
 
camlok said:
It's not a matter of one side or the other doing propaganda - that is a given. What is important is that the US propaganda system is the best the world has ever seen. It was so good the Nazis adopted it. What does a free and open country need with a massive propaganda system? Answer: it needs totally brainwashed citizens who will avidly support the myriad illegal invasions the US always commits.

Come on, be realistic! Around 93% of the US years in existence the US has been at war. There isn't any country that comes close to this level of war mongering.

The US is saturated with militaristic images, movies, news reports, propaganda, schooling, ... . USians live and breathe war and the military,
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The post is glib and pedestrian to say there is propaganda on each side -- then to rant on against USA "propaganda" only and in a full throat. Mention of China is omitted from your post btw. You could at the least show some respect of the thread and topic. Rather, you jump from thread to topic ranting the same bent while banging on your one same drum. You seem not competent to discuss anything outside your small bore range of big bore rantings.
 
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