• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Game of Thrones Season 8 *spoilers* thread

It was a total 180 of her character, and they did not sell her descent into madness in a logical manner.
Did they sell it at all? What she did was crazy, but it's not like she's hearing voices or hallucinating. Her worries about support for Jon are very real, not paranoia. Viserys was the one with the mental problems.
 
Actually they were. When she learned that Jon was the rightful heir, and that her trusted advisers had begun spreading word of Jon's status, all of Westeros was in her way. She then decided to follow in Aegon Targaryen's wake and undo the Kingdom in order to rebuild one where she was Queen.
Even if I was to buy this explanation, how it was executed is still not in any way believable. You're going to need to do a whole lot more than one line of "let it be fear". It was entirely rushed and forced, because they vaguely developed this 180 switch over the course of a few episodes. You want to make Dany mad? That's fine. But it needs to be believable, and have been building up to it. Dany has been very brutal, but she hasn't gotten to the point where she's willing to massacre innocents for those reasons. They've rushed this Mad Queen storyline so terribly, which is why it is so unbelievable. It's shocking for the sake or being shocking, like Arya killeing the Night King.
 
Did they sell it at all? What she did was crazy, but it's not like she's hearing voices or hallucinating. Her worries about support for Jon are very real, not paranoia. Viserys was the one with the mental problems.

Yeah, they didn't sell it. They've at most hinted that she would become mad, but nothing more. What she did might've been more believable if the battle was at a point of desperation, or perhaps Rheghal could've died THIS episode and then she snapped, but even then it would still feel rushed. The just didn't to a good job at all setting this up in a believable manner.
 
George R. R. Martin has been unaffiliated with the show for years now.

Not true. He has not only worked on the plot lines, he's been active with the spinoffs. He hasn't been sitting idly in New Mexico. Busy guy, editing new collections of short stories, two new novels by other authors and authoring a new series for Spectrum that isn't fantasy. He's been commuting regularly between NYC, his place in NM, and Black Rock, working on the revival of the latter.
 
Not true. He has not only worked on the plot lines, he's been active with the spinoffs. He hasn't been sitting idly in New Mexico. Busy guy, editing new collections of short stories, two new novels by other authors and authoring a new series for Spectrum that isn't fantasy. He's been commuting regularly between NYC, his place in NM, and Black Rock, working on the revival of the latter.

It is true. He has been distant with the production of Game of Thrones for a while. That's why D&D keep deviating from his plotlines from the books (and more often than not, it's worse, such as the Sand Snakes plotline). He at most consults with them now, but he is not majorly affiliated with Game of Thornes (the show) anymore. Spin-offs or new series have nothing to do with what I said.
 
Yeah, they didn't sell it. They've at most hinted that she would become mad, but nothing more. What she did might've been more believable if the battle was at a point of desperation, or perhaps Rheghal could've died THIS episode and then she snapped, but even then it would still feel rushed. The just didn't to a good job at all setting this up in a believable manner.

You insist on logic, yet you have glossed over the lack of logic in madness, evidenced by internal recall of her brother's words from the earliest episode when he had her undressed in front of him (her first nude scene, when she was most vulnerable and he was judging her value as trade item for an army of Dothraki), "You do not want to see the dragon inside me." Anger and madness, the genetic fault purported for her family. Very logical plotting. Or did you miss that slight bit of dialog in this episode?

Melodramatic setups for this next to last episode were a constant throughout the series, if you were watching and listening for them. Certainly, a difficult line of thought to perceive amidst all the everyday shock and awe plots and subplots throughout the series. The epiphanic looks on the faces of Jon and Davos were there for you to witness, their shock of understanding Dany had descended into that madness. It had been easy for her to claim she would rule with love, but impossible to deny who she was, mother of dragons and a dragon herself with the beheading of Milasandre. Dragons are monsters who don't need logic for their actions of revenge, but then who does? Read about Grendel and his mother, "aglæcwif" the warrior. This has been another retelling of the Beowolf saga. The fate of aglæcwif is for the next and final episode.
 
It is true. He has been distant with the production of Game of Thrones for a while. That's why D&D keep deviating from his plotlines from the books (and more often than not, it's worse, such as the Sand Snakes plotline). He at most consults with them now, but he is not majorly affiliated with Game of Thornes (the show) anymore. Spin-offs or new series have nothing to do with what I said.

He has been reading the scripts and giving approval before filming commenced. He drew the plot lines out long before the shows went into production. Part of the original contract to produce the show. The spinoffs were based on his original plot lines developed before the show production. Read his short stories.
 
You insist on logic, yet you have glossed over the lack of logic in madness, evidenced by internal recall of her brother's words from the earliest episode when he had her undressed in front of him (her first nude scene, when she was most vulnerable and he was judging her value as trade item for an army of Dothraki), "You do not want to see the dragon inside me." Anger and madness, the genetic fault purported for her family. Very logical plotting. Or did you miss that slight bit of dialog in this episode?

What don't you get about "it was forced and rushed"? Had it been properly set up for her to be the mad queen, I'd have no problem with it. The issue is, is that it was entirely rushed, and hence her burning King's Landing to the ground is forced beyond belief. If you want to set her up as mad, you need to set it up in a believable manner. This was not believable whatsoever. None of the little implications in any way logically led to Dany's out-of-character decision in the episode. They've botched this entire thing by rushing it beyond belief. That's my point.
 
He has been reading the scripts and giving approval before filming commenced. He drew the plot lines out long before the shows went into production. Part of the original contract to produce the show. The spinoffs were based on his original plot lines developed before the show production. Read his short stories.

Once again, he was affiliated with the show up until Season 4. He even wrote a few episodes himself. Season 5 is where D&D took over most of the reigns entirely, and started deviating from George's books in a signifigant degree. They've consulted with him a few times on certain plotlines, but the final decisions are up to them. I'm not going to repeat this again.
 
Once again, he was affiliated with the show up until Season 4. He even wrote a few episodes himself. Season 5 is where D&D took over most of the reigns entirely, and started deviating from George's books in a signifigant degree. They've consulted with him a few times on certain plotlines, but the final decisions are up to them. I'm not going to repeat this again.

Martin has always retained final script approval. Something he has spoken about often. Whether or not his contributions were significant, we will never know. Not even if he publishes the final two books. Meanwhile filming of the first spinoff has started and he is not only the author, but actively participating with the script development. Are you ready for Naomi Watts in a lead role? I'm not. :( Hoping I'm wrong.
 
Even if I was to buy this explanation, how it was executed is still not in any way believable. You're going to need to do a whole lot more than one line of "let it be fear". It was entirely rushed and forced, because they vaguely developed this 180 switch over the course of a few episodes. You want to make Dany mad? That's fine. But it needs to be believable, and have been building up to it. Dany has been very brutal, but she hasn't gotten to the point where she's willing to massacre innocents for those reasons. They've rushed this Mad Queen storyline so terribly, which is why it is so unbelievable. It's shocking for the sake or being shocking, like Arya killeing the Night King.

Again, it WAS a whole lot more then "Let it Be Fear". There was seasons of history, foreshadowing and outright acts of gratuitous slaughter. Her rule has been specifically all about fear. She has always murdered those who she sees as standing in the way of her throne. It's what she does.
 
What don't you get about "it was forced and rushed"? Had it been properly set up for her to be the mad queen, I'd have no problem with it. The issue is, is that it was entirely rushed, and hence her burning King's Landing to the ground is forced beyond belief. If you want to set her up as mad, you need to set it up in a believable manner. This was not believable whatsoever. None of the little implications in any way logically led to Dany's out-of-character decision in the episode. They've botched this entire thing by rushing it beyond belief. That's my point.

You found it rushed, I didn't. I expected it. I didn't find it out of character, I found it to be a consistent plot line waiting for a catalyst. From her earliest days as the alpha sibling under the surface, to her consistently destroying all her perceived enemies and anyone else in her path. Remember her satisfaction with her brother's death. I firmly believe, you and other members of the audience wanted a kinder caring Dany, as she purported herself to be, missing the undercurrent of who she really was, a monster. Whether she burnt the Dothraki leaders who opposed her or murdered all those she saw as betrayers and any who stood with them, she was always a member of her family of monsters. She has always seen herself as an all powerful goddess, with powers of destruction, absent creation. A vengeful goddess demanding sacrifices. Two of her children dead, her most caring personal follower decapitated, what else would you expect? Forgiveness? Burn, burn, burn baby was her motto and m.o. She was unleashed and unhinged to fulfill her destiny. The fire bearer. Her face after Milasandre's beheading said it all. The straw that broke the camel's back.

Jon and Tyrion, along with Jormah, functioned as her counterpoints, but they all failed. She is what she is. Deliverer of death, madness incarnate. Sansa saw through the facade.
 
You found it rushed, I didn't. I expected it. I didn't find it out of character, I found it to be a consistent plot line waiting for a catalyst. From her earliest days as the alpha sibling under the surface, to her consistently destroying all her perceived enemies and anyone else in her path. Remember her satisfaction with her brother's death. I firmly believe, you and other members of the audience wanted a kinder caring Dany, as she purported herself to be, missing the undercurrent of who she really was, a monster. Whether she burnt the Dothraki leaders who opposed her or murdered all those she saw as betrayers and any who stood with them, she was always a member of her family of monsters. She has always seen herself as an all powerful goddess, with powers of destruction, absent creation. A vengeful goddess demanding sacrifices. Two of her children dead, her most caring personal follower decapitated, what else would you expect? Forgiveness? Burn, burn, burn baby was her motto and m.o. She was unleashed and unhinged to fulfill her destiny. The fire bearer. Her face after Milasandre's beheading said it all. The straw that broke the camel's back.

Jon and Tyrion, along with Jormah, functioned as her counterpoints, but they all failed. She is what she is. Deliverer of death, madness incarnate. Sansa saw through the facade.

I've never "wanted" a kind Daenerys, nor did I ever expect her to take the Iron Throne. She's always been brutal, and self-righteous and arrogant. The deaths of Missandei and Jorah are not convincing enough for me to possibly buy her snapping like she did. It was rushed, and not executed well. Had these been built up gradually over the course of more episodes, or hell, even another season, I could've bought it. But this sudden switch is not believable to me.
 
Again, it WAS a whole lot more then "Let it Be Fear". There was seasons of history, foreshadowing and outright acts of gratuitous slaughter. Her rule has been specifically all about fear. She has always murdered those who she sees as standing in the way of her throne. It's what she does.

Foreshadowing is not the same as gradual buildup. This was nowhere near built up in a believable manner. Even in her acts of slaughter, she did not deliberately harm innocent people who had nothing to do with anything. Had her care for innocent life wavered over the course of this season, and perhaps more seasons if D&D had wanted to keep this going instead of rushing to an end, I might've bought it. But this was so sudden and rushed, hence why I do not buy it. It's a forced plot point.
 
Foreshadowing is not the same as gradual buildup. This was nowhere near built up in a believable manner. Even in her acts of slaughter, she did not deliberately harm innocent people who had nothing to do with anything. Had her care for innocent life wavered over the course of this season, and perhaps more seasons if D&D had wanted to keep this going instead of rushing to an end, I might've bought it. But this was so sudden and rushed, hence why I do not buy it. It's a forced plot point.

You'd need to define "innocent" as Daenerys defines it. It seems anyone who is a threat to her power is guilty and deserving of death.
 
George R. R. Martin has been unaffiliated with the show for years now.

The fuller context may be of help:

Since Game of Thrones began based on a book series that was still unfinished, Weiss and his fellow showrunner David Benioff did meet with Martin before the series began. At that meeting they received a rough outline of the ending from Martin. The finale of Game of Thrones will be based on Martin's original ending for the series as it existed circa 2011. However Martin has been open about discovering plots, characters and developments while he is writing the series. Game of Thrones could end exactly as Martin first envisioned his story coming to a close, but the books could reach altogether different ending when Martin completes them.

George R.R. Martin Doesn't Know How Game of Thrones Show Ends

Martin may be divorced from the show writing process (after season 4 or 5) by choice, but if the show creators are sticking to the major character arc as seen in 2011 then the ending seemed long contemplated. On the other hand, Martin says many of the minor character story arcs are different.

My bet is that if the books are finished, the ending will change and have some significant differences than what we will see in the final.
 
I've never "wanted" a kind Daenerys, nor did I ever expect her to take the Iron Throne. She's always been brutal, and self-righteous and arrogant. The deaths of Missandei and Jorah are not convincing enough for me to possibly buy her snapping like she did. It was rushed, and not executed well. Had these been built up gradually over the course of more episodes, or hell, even another season, I could've bought it. But this sudden switch is not believable to me.

We all enjoy different levels for suspension of disbelief. Let's see where the final episode takes it all?
 
Sandor for King! All hail Sandor!


And if you say he died, well, Arya had twenty buildings fall on her but whatever plot remains demanded she not die, so....
 
You found it rushed, I didn't. I expected it. I didn't find it out of character, I found it to be a consistent plot line waiting for a catalyst. From her earliest days as the alpha sibling under the surface, to her consistently destroying all her perceived enemies and anyone else in her path. Remember her satisfaction with her brother's death. I firmly believe, you and other members of the audience wanted a kinder caring Dany, as she purported herself to be, missing the undercurrent of who she really was, a monster. Whether she burnt the Dothraki leaders who opposed her or murdered all those she saw as betrayers and any who stood with them, she was always a member of her family of monsters. She has always seen herself as an all powerful goddess, with powers of destruction, absent creation. A vengeful goddess demanding sacrifices. Two of her children dead, her most caring personal follower decapitated, what else would you expect? Forgiveness? Burn, burn, burn baby was her motto and m.o. She was unleashed and unhinged to fulfill her destiny. The fire bearer. Her face after Milasandre's beheading said it all. The straw that broke the camel's back.

Jon and Tyrion, along with Jormah, functioned as her counterpoints, but they all failed. She is what she is. Deliverer of death, madness incarnate. Sansa saw through the facade.

They are a bunch of incestial monsters. She is a product of incest and screwing her nephew. Why should anyone be surprised?
 
Holy crap it's ending.
 
You found it rushed, I didn't. I expected it. I didn't find it out of character, I found it to be a consistent plot line waiting for a catalyst. From her earliest days as the alpha sibling under the surface, to her consistently destroying all her perceived enemies and anyone else in her path. Remember her satisfaction with her brother's death. I firmly believe, you and other members of the audience wanted a kinder caring Dany, as she purported herself to be, missing the undercurrent of who she really was, a monster. Whether she burnt the Dothraki leaders who opposed her or murdered all those she saw as betrayers and any who stood with them, she was always a member of her family of monsters. She has always seen herself as an all powerful goddess, with powers of destruction, absent creation. A vengeful goddess demanding sacrifices. Two of her children dead, her most caring personal follower decapitated, what else would you expect? Forgiveness? Burn, burn, burn baby was her motto and m.o. She was unleashed and unhinged to fulfill her destiny. The fire bearer. Her face after Milasandre's beheading said it all. The straw that broke the camel's back.

Jon and Tyrion, along with Jormah, functioned as her counterpoints, but they all failed. She is what she is. Deliverer of death, madness incarnate. Sansa saw through the facade.

Well stated. The divide between those who viewed Dany as a savor vs those who viewed her as bad news is rather telling - that difference being between those who are prone to idolize and are in need placing their faith in naked power and messianic personae's, and those who are less in need of infatuation and hero worship. The later understand people's nature, and do not become the tear gushing fans of anyone.
 
My vote for who comes out "on top" tonight is Sansa - two years ago I thought she was going to be the winner of the game and I still think it so. On the other hand, my guess is Jon will not - he will either die with Dany, or go back to live in the North, beyond the wall. In two hours or so, we will know.
 
After tonight, we must all admit, it had been a heck of ride in the world of sword, sorcery and fantasy. :)

Nothing was sacred. Nothing.

Almost like a song not written, "The Night Death Died."
 
Back
Top Bottom