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Art and Artifice, Defined With Examples Provided

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MrWonderful

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Definition of "art":


" n. - something that is created with imagination and skill and that is beautiful or that expresses important ideas or feelings"

Examples:

Mercy: David Spareth the Life of Saul, by Richard Dadd in The Getty Center





The Pieta by Michelangelo Buonarrati, in the Sistine Chapel

Pieta.jpg

Definition of "artifice":


ar·ti·fice - ˈärdəfəs - noun - clever or cunning devices or expedients, especially as used to trick or deceive others. outright fakery
synonyms - trickery, deceit, deception, duplicity, guile, chicanery
________________________________
Examples:


Leda and the Swan, sold for $56,900,000 at Christie's Auction
Leda and the Swan by Cy Twombly $52,887,500 May 2017.jpg


La Hara by Basquiat $35,000,000

La Hara, Basquiat, May 2017 $35 million.jpg
 
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MrWonderful said:
Definition of "art":


" n. - something that is created with imagination and skill and that is beautiful or that expresses important ideas or feelings"

Examples:

Mercy: David Spareth the Life of Saul, by Richard Dadd in The Getty Center





The Pieta by Michelangelo Buonarrati, in the Sistine Chapel

View attachment 67252360

Definition of "artifice":


ar·ti·fice - ˈärdəfəs - noun - clever or cunning devices or expedients, especially as used to trick or deceive others. outright fakery
synonyms - trickery, deceit, deception, duplicity, guile, chicanery
________________________________
Examples:


Leda and the Swan, sold for $56,900,000 at Christie's Auction
View attachment 67252359


La Hara by Basquiat $35,000,000

View attachment 67252358
Click to expand...

One man's trash is another man's treasure.....

God knows, I'm probably not the best person to judge the relative merits of a piece of art..... but I find if you're willing to put the time into trying to understand a masterpiece, it's usually worth the effort.
 
You forgot personal and subjective.


In other words, you are laboring between art, and FINE art. The later of the 2 being more a tax dodging scheme.
 
2017_NYR_14187_0006B_000(cy_twombly_leda_and_the_swan).jpg

"Big-time" art isn't my thing, but I presume the piece is a visual representation of Yeats' "Leda and the Swan," which is a sonnet proclaiming Zeus' rape of Queen Leda as an announcement, an indicator of an inflection point in history, the Trojan War, that marked the onset of extant civilization's ruin. There's more than that going on in the poem, but that it's about a rape and resulting impregnation says enough to introduce what I have to say about Twombly's painting.

While I "get" Yeats, I have no "effing" idea of how Twombly's scrawl above depicts anything having to do with Zeus, Leda, or Yeats' sonnet. Using only the piece's title as a guide, the most I see is violent scribble and maybe an abstract vagina. Were it not for Yeats' having been taught in high school English lit, I wouldn't, even seeing the painting's title have any idea of what calamity it portrays.


A sudden blow: the great wings beating still
Above the staggering girl, her thighs caressed
By the dark webs, her nape caught in his bill,
He holds her helpless breast upon his breast.

How can those terrified vague fingers push
The feathered glory from her loosening thighs?
And how can body, laid in that white rush,
But feel the strange heart beating where it lies?

A shudder in the loins engenders there
The broken wall, the burning roof and tower
And Agamemnon dead.
Being so caught up,​
So mastered by the brute blood of the air,
Did she put on his knowledge with his power
Before the indifferent beak could let her drop?
-- William Butler Yeats, "Leda and the Swan"​

As go paintings and drawings, for the most part, they need to contain some sort of recognizable imagery for me to cotton to them. There're some exceptions to that, but not too many. Just as in written expression I hew strongly to unambiguously expressed thoughts, I "need" my art to be much the same, perhaps more so insofar as recondite imagery that "speaks a thousand words," as it were, makes one work really hard to get into the artist's head, so to speak. I just don't want to work that hard for something that I will only view and that has no words.
 
Cordelier said:
One man's trash is another man's treasure.....

God knows, I'm probably not the best person to judge the relative merits of a piece of art..... but I find if you're willing to put the time into trying to understand a masterpiece, it's usually worth the effort.
Click to expand...

"Art is created with skill."

Please give the audience YOUR take on the "skill" necessary to throw paint onto a canvas, or piss into a glass jar and drop a crucifix inside it, viz., "Piss Christ," subsidized by taxpayers.

No. 17A by Jackson Pollock, sold for $200,000,000
Something YOU call "a masterpiece" because you have been told it is so by your betters....of the Left, bien sur.


No 17A by Jason Pollock $200 million.jpg
 
MrWonderful said:
"Art is created with skill."

Please give the audience YOUR take on the "skill" necessary to throw paint onto a canvas, or piss into a glass jar and drop a crucifix inside it, viz., "Piss Christ," subsidized by taxpayers.

No. 17A by Jackson Pollock, sold for $200,000,000
Something YOU call "a masterpiece" because you have been told it is so by your betters....of the Left, bien sur.


View attachment 67252377
Click to expand...

Ahhh... But you're confusing craftsmanship with art. Art isn't about skill.... it's about the message. Craftsmanship means getting something just right.

Michelangelo's Pieta is a work that has a high level of craftsmanship.... it's nearly technically perfect. But as art, what is it's message? You don't have to think too hard about it... it pretty much clubs you over the head.

Now take a modern work like Andres Serrano's Piss Christ.... it has a pretty low level of craftsmanship, but I think the message is even more profound. It took me a while and a lot of thinking to get it, but what I eventually realized is that God is the Creator of the Universe, in all of it's diversity... but if your version of God is so limited and so petty to be offended by a crucifex being put into a jar of urine, then is He worthy of worship? Obviously, He's not... so piss on him.

Which piece of art carries the more profound message? The one that is technically perfect and deservedly awe-inspiring? Or the one that tries to teach you lessons about yourself?
 
Cordelier said:
Ahhh... But you're confusing craftsmanship with art.
Click to expand...

I didn't define the word. You're simply trying to rewrite the definition, to defend dreck, crap, trash.
What an ignoble effort that is on your part.

Which piece of art carries the more profound message?
Click to expand...

Piss in a jar is a "profound message" to you? Mocking Catholics is "profound" to you?
I suppose you think homosexuality is just peachy. Hating and bitterness are "profound" and wonderful, aren't they.
Incidentally, all the priests who molested little boys were, by definition, homosexuals. Real men don't have any sexual interest whatsoever in boys.
Only homosexuals do. And Democrats simply LOVE homosexuals, and transgenders and all the other abnormal sickos.
 
Cordelier said:
Ahhh... But you're confusing craftsmanship with art. Art isn't about skill.... it's about the message.

Now take a modern work like Andres Serrano's Piss Christ.... it has a pretty low level of craftsmanship, but I think the message is even more profound. It took me a while and a lot of thinking to get it, but what I eventually realized is that God is the Creator of the Universe, in all of it's diversity... but if your version of God is so limited and so petty to be offended by a crucifex being put into a jar of urine, then is He worthy of worship? Obviously, He's not... so piss on him.
Click to expand...

And since you love homosexual "messages" so much, I'll bet you're simply giddy over Richard Mapplethorpe's Rectal Bullwhip.
Is that another homosexual paean to God?

Art - Rectal Bullwhip by Richard Mapplethorpe.jpg

There is a brilliant lecture by an art professor on what is art and what is not:

YouTube

Then again, you should re-read the definition of artifice. You obviously missed it.

Definition of "artifice":


ar·ti·fice - ˈärdəfəs - noun - clever or cunning devices or expedients, especially as used to trick or deceive others. outright fakery
synonyms - trickery, deceit, deception, duplicity, guile, chicanery
 
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MrWonderful said:
I didn't define the word. You're simply trying to rewrite the definition, to defend dreck, crap, trash.
What an ignoble effort that is on your part.



Piss in a jar is a "profound message" to you? Mocking Catholics is "profound" to you?
I suppose you think homosexuality is just peachy. Hating and bitterness are "profound" and wonderful, aren't they.
Incidentally, all the priests who molested little boys were, by definition, homosexuals. Real men don't have any sexual interest whatsoever in boys.
Only homosexuals do. And Democrats simply LOVE homosexuals, and transgenders and all the other abnormal sickos.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to re-write anything... I do admit to mis-speaking though, I used the word "art" when I should have used the word "imagination"... the art itself is the combination of skill (or craftsmanship) and imagination, which is entirely consistent with the definition you posted.

Why should urine in a jar offend me? The God I worship created the Universe in all of it's diversity. If I were to be offended by a crucifex in a jar of urine, that would say something about me, would it not? Wouldn't I be taking God and making Him into my image and making Him offended by the things that offend me?

Shouldn't it be the other way around? Wasn't I the one who was made in God's image? What's more, as a Christian, shouldn't I be more mindful of the New Testament and not be so judgmental of others? Let he who is without sin cast the first stone and all of that.
 
MrWonderful said:
"Art is created with skill."

Please give the audience YOUR take on the "skill" necessary to throw paint onto a canvas, or piss into a glass jar and drop a crucifix inside it, viz., "Piss Christ," subsidized by taxpayers.

No. 17A by Jackson Pollock, sold for $200,000,000
Something YOU call "a masterpiece" because you have been told it is so by your betters....of the Left, bien sur.


View attachment 67252377
Click to expand...

It's always amusing to see how much art frightens those who don't understand it.
 
Cordelier said:
I'm not trying to re-write anything... I do admit to mis-speaking though, I used the word "art" when I should have used the word "imagination"... the art itself is the combination of skill (or craftsmanship) and imagination, which is entirely consistent with the definition you posted.

Why should urine in a jar offend me? The God I worship created the Universe in all of it's diversity. If I were to be offended by a crucifex in a jar of urine, that would say something about me, would it not? Wouldn't I be taking God and making Him into my image and making Him offended by the things that offend me?

Shouldn't it be the other way around? Wasn't I the one who was made in God's image? What's more, as a Christian, shouldn't I be more mindful of the New Testament and not be so judgmental of others? Let he who is without sin cast the first stone and all of that.
Click to expand...

So how would you define "blasphemy"?
 
Tanngrisnir said:
It's always amusing to see how much art frightens those who don't understand it.
Click to expand...

I freely admit I'm no "genius" where it comes to art or artistic interpretation... I haven't "cracked" Pollock yet - but there's something about his works that draws my eye and makes me want to learn the secret. Who knows? Maybe that's the whole point.

What I can't understand is the visceral reactions and bile that some people just spew out. I don't get how people can condemn a work of art without first trying to understand it. To me, that's just sheer and spiteful ignorance.

As La Rochefoucauld said, "Les esprits médiocres condemnent d'ordinaire tout ce qui passe leur portée."
 
Still grappling with personal and subjective?
 
Cordelier said:
I don't really buy into the concept of blasphemy. Who does it really offend? The religion or the God?
Click to expand...

It offends individuals. As for what God thinks about blasphemy, I'm pretty sure you know where to look to find out information on that.
 
Cordelier said:
If you say so.
Click to expand...

I do. This evening I saw a pizza commercial again that sends me to the moon. Beethoven and pizza. Strauss and Oreos, Chopin and Mountain dew. Mozart and cake frosting--what an outrage!

If I am offended by the cheap exploitation of dead artists and great works, what does that say about my appreciation of music? ;)
 
nota bene said:
I do. This evening I saw a pizza commercial again that sends me to the moon. Beethoven and pizza. Strauss and Oreos, Chopin and Mountain dew. Mozart and cake frosting--what an outrage!

If I am offended by the cheap exploitation of dead artists and great works, what does that say about my appreciation of music? ;)
Click to expand...

That's a good question.... Let's analyze it - The commercials don't change the music... and it's not like Beethoven's 9th is now going to be called "The Domino's Pizza Symphony". I don't think the artist's themselves have an opinion on the matter... although, I understand Mozart was partial to cake frosting.

All in all, I'd say if you have a problem with commercials, well, then it's your problem. Your relationship to the music is your's alone.... nobody has a right to tell you what to feel.

From my perspective, I figure if some kid watches the commercial and likes the music and then goes on the internet to try and find the name of the piece and then discovers a love for Beethoven, more to the good.
 
Cordelier said:
That's a good question.... Let's analyze it - The commercials don't change the music... and it's not like Beethoven's 9th is now going to be called "The Domino's Pizza Symphony". I don't think the artist's themselves have an opinion on the matter... although, I understand Mozart was partial to cake frosting.

All in all, I'd say if you have a problem with commercials, well, then it's your problem. Your relationship to the music is your's alone.... nobody has a right to tell you what to feel.

From my perspective, I figure if some kid watches the commercial and likes the music and then goes on the internet to try and find the name of the piece and then discovers a love for Beethoven, more to the good.
Click to expand...

The commercials debase the music.
 
In origin Art was a form of religious meditation. It retained its religious connection for much of its history. Then Art became humanistic in orientation, and after five hundred years has become a form of entertainment merely.
 
Cordelier said:
That's factually incorrect... the music itself is unchanged. The only debasement that can possibly occur is in your perception of it.
Click to expand...

Yes, I know that the notes don't change. :roll:

I also know that you're willfully missing my point.
 
Angel said:
In origin Art was a form of religious meditation. It retained its religious connection for much of its history. Then Art became humanistic in orientation, and after five hundred years has become a form of entertainment merely.
Click to expand...

When you say "in origin", are you referring to cave art?

I think art is intrinsic to the human condition - it's part and parcel with our sentience. I also think our sentience is humanity's "original sin"... but that's a whole other debate. ;)
 
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