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Art and Artifice, Defined With Examples Provided

nota bene said:
Yes, I know that the notes don't change. :roll:

I also know that you're willfully missing my point.
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I don't think I am.... No matter what acts of "blasphemy" occur... God, like the music, doesn't change. All that can possibly change is your own perception. Mohammed and the Mountain and all of that. So does your being offended have anything to do with God? Doesn't it actually have to do with your own personal relationship with Him?
 
Cordelier said:
When you say "in origin", are you referring to cave art?

I think art is intrinsic to the human condition - it's part and parcel with our sentience. I also think our sentience is humanity's "original sin"... but that's a whole other debate. ;)
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Cave art, according to our best guesses, yes; but more assuredly what comes later, with civilization, in Egypt, Greece, and Rome for example.

Interesting throwaway on human sentience. Where can we start a thread on this? Philosophy? Let's formulate the OP here, together, shall we?
 
Angel said:
Cave art, according to our best guesses, yes; but more assuredly what comes later, with civilization, in Egypt, Greece, and Rome for example.

Interesting throwaway on human sentience. Where can we start a thread on this? Philosophy? Let's formulate the OP here, together, shall we?
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LOL cavemen were worshipping their art now? :lamo
 
Trollin', trollin', trollin' on the river
Trollin', trollin', trollin' on the river…

Creedence Clearwater Revival? Or Klue Klutz Klam, the Assless Laughing Emoji?
 
Angel said:
Cave art, according to our best guesses, yes; but more assuredly what comes later, with civilization, in Egypt, Greece, and Rome for example.

Interesting throwaway on human sentience. Where can we start a thread on this? Philosophy? Let's formulate the OP here, together, shall we?
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It all depends on how narrow your definition of art is, I guess... I look at the pottery people use and the songs they sing as art as well. If you only look at the "big ticket" items, I guess I'd concede the majority of it that survives today has religious connotations.

If you're serious about the thread, I'm game... I'd say Beliefs & Skepticism. If you want to go by a strictly Biblical interpretation.... the original sin was eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge - what else could it be but sentience?
 
Cordelier said:
...
I think art is intrinsic to the human condition - it's part and parcel with our sentience. I also think our sentience is humanity's "original sin"... but that's a whole other debate. ;)
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Angel said:
...
Interesting throwaway on human sentience. Where can we start a thread on this? Philosophy? Let's formulate the OP here, together, shall we?
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Cordelier said:
...
If you're serious about the thread, I'm game... I'd say Beliefs & Skepticism. If you want to go by a strictly Biblical interpretation.... the original sin was eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge - what else could it be but sentience?
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We can use your original throwaway line and begin thus:

I think art is intrinsic to the human condition - it's part and parcel with our sentience.
I also think our sentience is humanity's "original sin."
If you want to go by a strictly Biblical interpretation, the "original sin" was eating, in disobedience of the divine command, the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The immediate consequence of this act in the Biblical account is self-consciousness - shame.

Please edit, tweak, rewrite, and augment. Let's see what results.
We might want to define "sentience" and situate it among the concepts of "consciousness" and "self-consciousness."
We might also carry on the art connection to make the point clear to our readers.
 
Angel said:
We can use your original throwaway line and begin thus:

I think art is intrinsic to the human condition - it's part and parcel with our sentience.
I also think our sentience is humanity's "original sin."
If you want to go by a strictly Biblical interpretation, the "original sin" was eating, in disobedience of the divine command, the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The immediate consequence of this act in the Biblical account is self-consciousness - shame.

Please edit, tweak, rewrite, and augment. Let's see what results.
We might want to define "sentience" and situate it among the concepts of "consciousness" and "self-consciousness."
We might also carry on the art connection to make the point clear to our readers.
Click to expand...

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I come think sentience probably isn't the word I'm looking for.... it doesn't quite hit the nail on the head. I think the term sapience would probably be more apt.
 
Cordelier said:
Actually, the more I think about it, the more I come think sentience probably isn't the word I'm looking for.... it doesn't quite hit the nail on the head. I think the term sapience would probably be more apt.
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Well, sapience is wisdom. How about self-consciousness? It fits the art paradigm well, and it makes sense of the shame business, not to mention the knowledge of good and evil.
 
Angel said:
Well, sapience is wisdom. How about self-consciousness? It fits the art paradigm well, and it makes sense of the shame business, not to mention the knowledge of good and evil.
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Self-consciousness doesn't really fit either, though - it's too generalized... how about cognition?
 
Cordelier said:
Self-consciousness doesn't really fit either, though - it's too generalized... how about cognition?
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How about something along the lines of:

The Fall of Man and the Rise of Human Cognition

We bring in morality and art from the outset, in our OP, so that the three themes -- cognition, morality, aesthetics -- van play off each other.
We reference the Biblical source just to get started -- we don't want to encourage another Biblical schilarship discussion among our resident "experts"; our topic is Man.

What do you think?
 
Angel said:
How about something along the lines of:

The Fall of Man and the Rise of Human Cognition

We bring in morality and art from the outset, in our OP, so that the three themes -- cognition, morality, aesthetics -- van play off each other.
We reference the Biblical source just to get started -- we don't want to encourage another Biblical schilarship discussion among our resident "experts"; our topic is Man.

What do you think?
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I like it.... I've got to admit, I thought aesthetics might have been too broad a subject.... but the more I think about it, the more I like it. It incorporates scientific themes that aren't traditionally thought of as art. Well done!

To be perfectly honest with you, though, the title and subject matter sounds more like a Ph.D. thesis than a debate thread. :)
 
Cordelier said:
I like it.... I've got to admit, I thought aesthetics might have been too broad a subject.... but the more I think about it, the more I like it. It incorporates scientific themes that aren't traditionally thought of as art. Well done!

To be perfectly honest with you, though, the title and subject matter sounds more like a Ph.D. thesis than a debate thread. :)
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We can hide the PhD title for the OP and think of a more catchy thread title, like "Original Sin: the true story."
What we need now is the OP, the Original Post, which should be such that it invites/provokes posts. Something along these lines perhaps:

Science, art and morality are the hallmarks of human being. They mark human being out from all other animal life. They are distinctively human dimensions of cognition.
In what way might the Biblical account of the Fall of Man shed light on these "superior" cognitive capacities of Mankind?

It needs more perhaps, but what do you think about the general direction of our thread?
 
Angel said:
We can hide the PhD title for the OP and think of a more catchy thread title, like "Original Sin: the true story."
What we need now is the OP, the Original Post, which should be such that it invites/provokes posts. Something along these lines perhaps:

Science, art and morality are the hallmarks of human being. They mark human being out from all other animal life. They are distinctively human dimensions of cognition.
In what way might the Biblical account of the Fall of Man shed light on these "superior" cognitive capacities of Mankind?

It needs more perhaps, but what do you think about the general direction of our thread?
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I'm not so sure about the morality spin. From my perspective, morality is like mathematics... it's not quite clear if it's something we invented or if it's something that we discovered. I'm not quite sure if that's a debate in it's own right, or is it something we can integrate into this one?

Other than that, though, I like how it's shaping up. Definitely a lot of meat on the bone there.
 
Cordelier said:
I'm not so sure about the morality spin. From my perspective, morality is like mathematics... it's not quite clear if it's something we invented or if it's something that we discovered. I'm not quite sure if that's a debate in it's own right, or is it something we can integrate into this one?

Other than that, though, I like how it's shaping up. Definitely a lot of meat on the bone there.
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I share your concern, and past experience with threads here supports that concern, but how can we leave out morality when the "original sin" involves forbidden fruit on a tree called "The Knowledge of Good and Evil"?
 
Angel said:
I share your concern, and past experience with threads here supports that concern, but how can we leave out morality when the "original sin" involves forbidden fruit on a tree called "The Knowledge of Good and Evil"?
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We could take Michelangelo's "Angel in the Stone" approach... maybe focus on the whole discovery vs. invention theme?
 
Cordelier said:
We could take Michelangelo's "Angel in the Stone" approach... maybe focus on the whole discovery vs. invention theme?
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"I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free."

 
Angel said:
"I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free."
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I like the idea of exploring dichotomies.... discovery vs. invention.... wisdom vs. intelligence.... good vs. evil.... they're all in there. Truth be told, when you get right down to it, they're all the same dichotomy.
 
Cordelier said:
I like the idea of exploring dichotomies.... discovery vs. invention.... wisdom vs. intelligence.... good vs. evil.... they're all in there. Truth be told, when you get right down to it, they're all the same dichotomy.
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Perhaps our thread is about the origin of dichotomies.
 
Angel said:
Perhaps our thread is about the origin of dichotomies.
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That's too abstract.... I'm thinking we use Michelangelo's "Angel in Stone" as a focal point. Was the angel there all along? Or did Michelangelo's hand create it? Would the same block of stone in the hands of Bandinelli have produced the same result?

Maybe what we need to explore is the nature of creativity itself? What's the space between man's reach and God's grasp in Michelangelo's Creation of Adam?

adam-god-finger.jpg
 
Cordelier said:
That's too abstract.... I'm thinking we use Michelangelo's "Angel in Stone" as a focal point. Was the angel there all along? Or did Michelangelo's hand create it? Would the same block of stone in the hands of Bandinelli have produced the same result?

Maybe what we need to explore is the nature of creativity itself? What's the space between man's reach and God's grasp in Michelangelo's Creation of Adam?

View attachment 67252690
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This is another good idea for a thread, but not the "original sin" idea anymore, yes?
 
Angel said:
This is another good idea for a thread, but not the "original sin" idea anymore, yes?
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It's there... No matter how you view the Garden of Eden - whether you interpret it literally or allegorically - I don't think anyone will argue that human creativity existed there. It's the seed of the forbidden fruit.
 
Cordelier said:
It's there... No matter how you view the Garden of Eden - whether you interpret it literally or allegorically - I don't think anyone will argue that human creativity existed there. It's the seed of the forbidden fruit.
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The Fall of Man and the Image of God
From Original Sin to Abstract Expressionism
The Serpent and the Muse
The Fall of Man and the Rise of Homo creator​
 
Angel said:
The Fall of Man and the Image of God
From Original Sin to Abstract Expressionism
The Serpent and the Muse
The Fall of Man and the Rise of Homo creator​
Click to expand...

How about "Angels in Stone: The Nature of Creativity"... We're all aware of the creativity of nature... how it adapts to change, heals scars, and evolves. But what is the nature of creativity? What is it that drives us to push the limits? What fuels the impulsive need we feel for newer, shinier, better? Where does it come from? What's more, just because we can, does it mean we should?
 
Cordelier said:
How about "Angels in Stone: The Nature of Creativity"... We're all aware of the creativity of nature... how it adapts to change, heals scars, and evolves. But what is the nature of creativity? What is it that drives us to push the limits? What fuels the impulsive need we feel for newer, shinier, better? Where does it come from? What's more, just because we can, does it mean we should?
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Bingo!
This is it. As written. Don't change a thing. If you find an image of a Michelangelo sculpture, add that.
Start the thread!
 
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