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Star Wars: The Last Jedi **SPOILERS*

Serenity said:
Yes, that is touching.

That being said Jet, no Star Wars Movie since the Original trilogy has made me feel anything even remotely close to how I felt watching them when I was little.

I'm not the same person anymore. I've grown up. I'm never going to have the same experiences watching SW as I did back then. I was so obsessed with/into SW that my Dad made a roll out trundle for my bed for me to put my SW figures on to "go to sleep" too. Every night, for the longest time, before I went to sleep, I would arrange all of my toys in a particular way and only then would I happily go off to sleep. They had to be in a particular order. Vader was always last in the line as far away from all the others as possible, Luke was always first.

I've still enjoyed the prequels, some obviously more than others but I'm still happy to have seen them.
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While it's true that you don't and won't watch movies the same way you did when you were a kid, you can still be thrilled by a new movie.

I got a pretty good charge out of Rogue One. But it's a much better movie than TFA or TLJ.
 
I don't know.

On the one hand, people are have some valid arguments on plot-holes.

But on the other hand, most of those plot-holes actually have filling, it just wasn't shown in the movie.

I suppose i should be grateful that i didn't let a lack of imagination or a latent misogyny ruin the movie for me.
 
Zyphlin said:
You'll likely recall, I was right there with you post TFA in terms of defending many of the issues with Rey. I just can't do the same here. TLJ takes the momentary epiphany of power from TFA and basically just makes it permanent. The impression from ESB is Luke's on Dagobah for a decent amount of time undergoing rigorous training; Rey meanwhile is on the island for seemingly a few days with three mild lessons and not much else. Yet despite this she bests Luke in Combat and later is capable of seemingly effortlessly lifting and suspending an entire rockslide (something we've watched Luke, with a singular rock, expend great effort just to make happen in his training).
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That you are acknowledging all that in the context of that TFA thread.... good on you.

Narratively, by the time we get to Luke as a seemingly confident and seasoned Jedi at the start of RotJ, it's felt "earned".
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What's really strange is that this is usually a very well-oiled, classic story mechanic, the coming of age character. In a sense, nearly every superhero movie taps into this in their first episode, and that's why we see so many re-dos of 1st episodes with them...it's such a timeless and compelling story arch..for all writing, movies, you name it. And we never seem to tire of it. They often create both the Villain/Nemesis and the Hero in the same story. And they apparently threw that out the window here, missing that incredible opportunity while simultaneously eliminating that plausible progression. That usually sets up the characters and relationships, so when they go buck-wild in the sequels, it's grounded. For all your appropriate critique of Rey, Kylo is the same thing in reverse. Silly, comic relief, keystone cops for bad guys.
 
Absentglare said:
I don't know.

On the one hand, people are have some valid arguments on plot-holes.

But on the other hand, most of those plot-holes actually have filling, it just wasn't shown in the movie.

I suppose i should be grateful that i didn't let a lack of imagination or a latent misogyny ruin the movie for me.
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Here's a plot hole: when DJ sold them out and the First Order began to fire at the shuttles carrying the evacuees from the cruiser, how did DJ know about the evacuation plan since Finn and his GF never knew about it either?
 
Absentglare said:
The prior absence of women isn't a meaningful data point.
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It's an incredibly meaningful data point when someone is asking "Why are there people bothered by it in the new trilogy, but weren't bothered by it in the old".
 
ludin said:
Mon montha. Has a very big history with the rebel alliance. And Star Wars in general.
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I know that, because I'm a big ol' nerd.

I'd wager large amounts of money that the the vast majority of those bitching about the amount/focus on women in the new trilogy did not heavily watch the Clone Wars cartoon, peruse Star Wars comics, or read Star Wars Novels. Your posts were talking about peoples reactions towards things in "The first movies", which is why I was focused on discussing the OG trilogy and not the plethora of canon and non-canon works that most outside of the star wars nerdom don't really know about thoroughly.





Please see the link above.


Then people are ranting and do not follow Star Wars history that much.


No it has always been there if anyone has ever read any of the books.



As I said they have never read any of the books or any of the Star Wars lore.[/QUOTE]
 
PoS said:
Here's a plot hole: when DJ sold them out and the First Order began to fire at the shuttles carrying the evacuees from the cruiser, how did DJ know about the evacuation plan since Finn and his GF never knew about it either?
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I thought he overheard that between Poe and Finn when Finn told Poe that they needed more time.
 
Zyphlin said:
It's an incredibly meaningful data point when someone is asking "Why are there people bothered by it in the new trilogy, but weren't bothered by it in the old".
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Ah, you are right, thank you.

Though i kinda feel like, since TFA and RO, female characters finally have some depth and development. It seems more like that females were rather superficial in the original trilogy and the prequel trilogy. There's a shift from character development centered around individual men who lost people they cared about, to stories of men and women working together.

I guess what i mean to say is that it's not really a big deal to me. If anything, it seems long overdue to expand on their multi-billion dollar merchandizing market.
 
Absentglare said:
I thought he overheard that between Poe and Finn when Finn told Poe that they needed more time.
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If Finn knew about it why didnt he tell Poe so they wouldnt have to go to the casino planet in the first place?
 
PoS said:
If Finn knew about it why didnt he tell Poe so they wouldnt have to go to the casino planet in the first place?
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Finn only found out when it was already too late, after he was already on the enemy ship, because Laura Dern's character wasn't sharing her plans with Poe or Finn. Poe might have wanted to keep the cruiser in the case that their plan might still succeed, anyway.
 
Absentglare said:
Finn only found out when it was already too late, after he was already on the enemy ship, because Laura Dern's character wasn't sharing her plans with Poe or Finn. Poe might have wanted to keep the cruiser in the case that their plan might still succeed, anyway.
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Going back to the first point: so if Laura Dern didnt share her plans with either Poe or Finn then how did DJ find out about it? He was in the casino world and then on the star Destroyer.
 
Absentglare said:
I don't know. On the one hand, people are have some valid arguments on plot-holes. But on the other hand, most of those plot-holes actually have filling, it just wasn't shown in the movie.
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Sounds like an argument for the existence of god. No evidence in reality, but you know, it's answerable with faith. You say there really are answers to all the issues, but that's excuses, not reasons why the film was good, and you know it. You were not looking for those things, you enjoyed it, nothing wrong with that...doesn't mean they are wrong though.

People have legit criticisms of the movie as relative to other modern movies/shows. It's weak for specific reasons.
That you like it, is not a refutation of any of those issues. Loads of people did that in the original Force Awakens thread (see Zyph/Serenity referencing that above), and guess what? Basically nothing they tried to justify force awakens with as being done because "well it will be explained in the next movie!" came to pass. In many cases, as many point out, it got *even worse*. This is not new, or uncommon. Big companies have different objectives (profit and growth) than small teams or original creators, in every industry. That it has come to pass with SW is natural. Denying it without cause, is silly. It's much harder to do good work under such constraints, it simply is.

I suppose i should be grateful that i didn't let a lack of imagination or a latent misogyny ruin the movie for me.
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And you had to go there didn't you? You can't simply say you enjoyed it. You can't actually refute the arguments. Instead you have to attack the critics personally, demonizing them to make you feel better and make them look worse. This is no different than Trump attacking the FBI.

No, it's not my mother ****ing lack of imagination or latent misogyny that makes FA and LJ weak movies. I don't think you don't *really* mean that, but it's what you wrote...
You seem to be again teetering on the edge..you start with saying people have legit criticism, and then you say but it's not legit for "reasons". Then you say the people themselves are basically ****ty people. Take the high road, be wise about it. Use the force :p

There *is* a group of seemingly alt-right types who believe FA and SJ (among other products on the market), are terrible in large part *because* they are trying to cram diversity/women/minorities down our throats. Again, don't attack them because they are idiots, attack them on their merits. I can name plenty of well done, role-reversing/gender-bending movies and stories that do it well. Not just do it well, because they are breaking norms, it has the effect of feeling "fresh", like it hasn't been done 100x so it's "new", which is often a boost to artistic value. It can be done with mixed race, or all handicapped people, or anything in between...if its done well, it can work in any case. So clearly just saying they used diversity and *therefore the movie suffered* seems absurd. Well, I insulted them AND rebutted them...I suppose I'm only half justified :)
 
Mach said:
Sounds like an argument for the existence of god. No evidence in reality, but you know, it's answerable with faith. You say there really are answers to all the issues, but that's excuses, not reasons why the film was good, and you know it. You were not looking for those things, you enjoyed it, nothing wrong with that...doesn't mean they are wrong though.

People have legit criticisms of the movie as relative to other modern movies/shows. It's weak for specific reasons.
That you like it, is not a refutation of any of those issues. Loads of people did that in the original Force Awakens thread (see Zyph/Serenity referencing that above), and guess what? Basically nothing they tried to justify force awakens with as being done because "well it will be explained in the next movie!" came to pass. In many cases, as many point out, it got *even worse*. This is not new, or uncommon. Big companies have different objectives (profit and growth) than small teams or original creators, in every industry. That it has come to pass with SW is natural. Denying it without cause, is silly. It's much harder to do good work under such constraints, it simply is.


And you had to go there didn't you? You can't simply say you enjoyed it. You can't actually refute the arguments. Instead you have to attack the critics personally, demonizing them to make you feel better and make them look worse. This is no different than Trump attacking the FBI.

No, it's not my mother ****ing lack of imagination or latent misogyny that makes FA and LJ weak movies. I don't think you don't *really* mean that, but it's what you wrote...
You seem to be again teetering on the edge..you start with saying people have legit criticism, and then you say but it's not legit for "reasons". Then you say the people themselves are basically ****ty people. Take the high road, be wise about it. Use the force :p

There *is* a group of seemingly alt-right types who believe FA and SJ (among other products on the market), are terrible in large part *because* they are trying to cram diversity/women/minorities down our throats. Again, don't attack them because they are idiots, attack them on their merits. I can name plenty of well done, role-reversing/gender-bending movies and stories that do it well. Not just do it well, because they are breaking norms, it has the effect of feeling "fresh", like it hasn't been done 100x so it's "new", which is often a boost to artistic value. It can be done with mixed race, or all handicapped people, or anything in between...if its done well, it can work in any case. So clearly just saying they used diversity and *therefore the movie suffered* seems absurd. Well, I insulted them AND rebutted them...I suppose I'm only half justified :)
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In a way, it is an act of faith. I believe that we're 2/3rds of the way through the story and the last 1/3rd is going to address a lot of unanswered questions. Actually, it'd be a little boring if it were so strict and predictable that there weren't any unanswered questions.

Sure, maybe the writers changed direction, or the directors changed the vision, as they progressed.

There are lots of possible explanations for unexplained observations. The fact that somethings unexplained isn't that exactly big of a deal for me. If it ends up being an inconsistency, i hope it's not very relevant to the story.

Recently i watched Logan, i thought they deviated from the Marvell timeline they established: actually, i found an article that explained how i was wrong. I underestimated the depth and consistency of the Marvell Cinematic Universe.

And the previous movies were riddled with inconsistencies that i couldn't explain:

Obi-Wan says Yoda trained him (ep 5). Obi wan trained by Qui Gon Jinn (ep 1).

Leia refers to her mom as "beautiful", "kind", and "sad" (ep 6). Padme dies in childbirth (ep 3).

Luke keeps Skywalker name in "hiding" (ep 4).

Obi-Wan/etc. doesn't recognize R2D2 in spite of prequel rapport (ep 4).

Yoda tells Obi-Wan "there is another" (ep 5), but Obi-Wan was present for Leia's birth (ep 3).

All of those were essentially introduced by the prequels. But you know what? They aren't what anywhere near what bothers me the most about the prequels. On top of that, i think a lot of what we see as inconsistencies with the new movies have explanations, they were just not always well managed. We'll have a better picture once the third movie is released.
 
Absentglare said:
In a way, it is an act of faith. I believe that we're 2/3rds of the way through the story and the last 1/3rd is going to address a lot of unanswered questions. Actually, it'd be a little boring if it were so strict and predictable that there weren't any unanswered questions.
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You agree it's a matter of faith on not evidenced, good. You didn't insult me to defend your position, good. I consider that settled.

Logan and much of the Marvel franchise was done well, very well in some cases. The individual hero movies that led up to the Avengers, was brilliantly done. Comparing that planning, those works, to Force Awakens or Last Jedi, is absurd. A few plot holes, are irrelevant, they are expected in all fictional works of significant complexity/scope. I wish that was the only issue with LJ.
 
PoS said:
- The lightspeed kamikaze maneuver: this is the real game breaker here. If a single cruiser can devastate a whole fleet, why not just build lots of LS engines on asteroids and throw them at opposing fleets? Why did the rebs even try to do a bomb run at the dreadnought when they could have just hit them with lightspeed strikes? You dont even need a Death Star anymore.
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I liked the whole light-speed kamikaze for the whole effect and all but you're 100% correct that it breaks everything forever. Why not just make a bunch of anti-mega-starship-light-speed missiles? Seems like a wise and low-cost investment to completely neutralize any fleets based around large ships.
 
Zyphlin said:
My take...

Just...disappointing is the only way to say it. The plot dragged and felt like it was just completely filler. The new characters felt hollow and needless. The double twist should've been a high point but was done too early and anticlimatic, comedic at one point followed by predictable in the worst way. Rey and Kylo both feel so Mary Sue like, having not earned through the story telling anywhere near the positions they are. Comparing their arc and growth to Luke's, Anakins, or even Obi-Wan makes this striking.

A few very nice visuals (one with light speed, one in the final battle ground) and a stellar performance by Hamill ate the films only true saving graces. 2, maybe 2 1/2 out of 5. I put only phantom menace beneath it. Maybe I feel better on second viewing with my wife Saturday
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I found it nice that the plots to counter the empire failed actually. , and the fly boys caused more damage then they solved.
 
Late to the party but I saw it yesterday and I thought it was fantastic.

Plot holes can be excused by virtue of the fact that it's Star Wars ffs lol
 
Nilly said:
Late to the party but I saw it yesterday and I thought it was fantastic.

Plot holes can be excused by virtue of the fact that it's Star Wars ffs lol
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This one had more plotholes than usual.
 
Fishking said:
I liked the whole light-speed kamikaze for the whole effect and all but you're 100% correct that it breaks everything forever. Why not just make a bunch of anti-mega-starship-light-speed missiles? Seems like a wise and low-cost investment to completely neutralize any fleets based around large ships.
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Or....as they're being chased throughout 2/3 of the entire movie, slowly losing their entire fleet....one ship at a time....just...evac one early....and kamikaze it right then and there....
 
And PS....you don't "drop" bombs in space. That's not how zero gravity works.
 
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