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And you thought Wright was bad?

Sorry, my information came from both Time and NYT citing information from "local news articles from the time." Time and the NYT aren't perfect, but I have to trust those sources over the word of an "anonymous poster from Wasilla." I have read the "scoop" on numerous sites from "Wasilla residents" both supporting and opposing Palin, so I'll just stick to Time and the NYT, thanks anyway. :2wave:

Yep, he'll stick to the Time article...ignoreing the parts that doesn't back up his assessment she's some kind of christian whack job that will legislate her religion or where it points out even in and of itself that the mayor is bitter about his loss and the way it happened and doesn't like her, and has got zero information from the actual librarian.
 
I'm following the dots and found that Palin had mentioned the book banning at a town meeting and according to the NYT's article, Anne Kilkenny was there. Then I found Anne's blog:

Dear friends,

So many people have asked me about what I know about Sarah Palin in the
last 2 days that I decided to write something up . . .

Basically, Sarah Palin and Hillary Clinton have only 2 things in
common: their gender and their good looks. :)

You have my permission to forward this to your friends/email contacts
with my name and email address attached, but please do not post it on
any websites, as there are too many kooks out there . . .

Thanks,
Anne

[ Note by webadmin: This was already posted on Washington Independent
comments area and was meant by the author to be read by many, but
readers need sourcing. The NY Times has talked with Anne since. ]

ABOUT SARAH PALIN

I am a resident of Wasilla, Alaska. I have known Sarah since 1992.
Everyone here knows Sarah, so it is nothing special to say we are on a
first-name basis. Our children have attended the same schools. Her
father was my child's favorite substitute teacher. I also am on a
first name basis with her parents and mother-in-law. I attended more
City Council meetings during her administration than about 99% of the
residents of the city.

She is enormously popular; in every way she’s like the most popular
girl in middle school. Even men who think she is a poor choice and
won't vote for her can't quit smiling when talking about her because
she is a "babe".

It is astonishing and almost scary how well she can keep a secret. She
kept her most recent pregnancy a secret from her children and parents
for seven months.

She is "pro-life". She recently gave birth to a Down's syndrome baby.
There is no cover-up involved, here; Trig is her baby.

She is energetic and hardworking. She regularly worked out at the gym.

She is savvy. She doesn't take positions; she just "puts things out
there" and if they prove to be popular, then she takes credit.

Her husband works a union job on the North Slope for BP and is a
champion snowmobile racer. Todd Palin’s kind of job is highly
sought-after because of the schedule and high pay. He arranges his
work schedule so he can fish for salmon in Bristol Bay for a month or
so in summer, but by no stretch of the imagination is fishing their
major source of income. Nor has her life-style ever been anything
like that of native Alaskans.

Sarah and her whole family are avid hunters.

She's smart.

Her experience is as mayor of a city with a population of about 5,000
(at the time), and less than 2 years as governor of a state with about
670,000 residents.

During her mayoral administration most of the actual work of running
this small city was turned over to an administrator. She had been
pushed to hire this administrator by party power-brokers after she had
gotten herself into some trouble over precipitous firings which had
given rise to a recall campaign.

Sarah campaigned in Wasilla as a “fiscal conservative”. During her 6
years as Mayor, she increased general government expenditures by over
33%. During those same 6 years the amount of taxes collected by the
City increased by 38%. This was during a period of low inflation
(1996-2002). She reduced progressive property taxes and increased a
regressive sales tax which taxed even food. The tax cuts that she
promoted benefited large corporate property owners way more than they
benefited residents.

The huge increases in tax revenues during her mayoral administration
weren’t enough to fund everything on her wish list though, borrowed
money was needed, too. She inherited a city with zero debt, but left it
with indebtedness of over $22 million. What did Mayor Palin encourage
the voters to borrow money for? Was it the infrastructure that she said
she supported? The sewage treatment plant that the city lacked? or a
new library? No. $1m for a park. $15m-plus for construction of a
multi-use sports complex which she rushed through to build on a piece
of property that the City didn’t even have clear title to, that was
still in litigation 7 yrs later--to the delight of the lawyers
involved! The sports complex itself is a nice addition to the
community but a huge money pit, not the profit-generator she claimed it
would be. She also supported bonds for $5.5m for road projects that
could have been done in 5-7 yrs without any borrowing.

While Mayor, City Hall was extensively remodeled and her office
redecorated more than once.

These are small numbers, but Wasilla is a very small city.

As an oil producer, the high price of oil has created a budget surplus
in Alaska. Rather than invest this surplus in technology that will
make us energy independent and increase efficiency, as Governor she
proposed distribution of this surplus to every individual in the state.

In this time of record state revenues and budget surpluses, she
recommended that the state borrow/bond for road projects, even while
she proposed distribution of surplus state revenues: spend today's
surplus, borrow for needs.

She’s not very tolerant of divergent opinions or open to outside ideas
or compromise. As Mayor, she fought ideas that weren’t generated by
her or her staff. Ideas weren’t evaluated on their merits, but on the
basis of who proposed them.

While Sarah was Mayor of Wasilla she tried to fire our highly respected
City Librarian because the Librarian refused to consider removing from
the library some books that Sarah wanted removed. City residents
rallied to the defense of the City Librarian and against Palin's
attempt at out-and-out censorship, so Palin backed down and withdrew
her termination letter. People who fought her attempt to oust the
Librarian are on her enemies list to this day.

Sarah complained about the “old boy’s club” when she first ran for
Mayor, so what did she bring Wasilla? A new set of "old boys". Palin
fired most of the experienced staff she inherited. At the City and as
Governor she hired or elevated new, inexperienced, obscure people,
creating a staff totally dependent on her for their jobs and eternally
grateful and fiercely loyal--loyal to the point of abusing their power
to further her personal agenda, as she has acknowledged happened in the
case of pressuring the State’s top cop (see below).

As Mayor, Sarah fired Wasilla’s Police Chief because he “intimidated”
her, she told the press. As Governor, her recent firing of Alaska's top
cop has the ring of familiarity about it. He served at her pleasure
and she had every legal right to fire him, but it's pretty clear that
an important factor in her decision to fire him was because he wouldn't
fire her sister's ex-husband, a State Trooper. Under investigation
for abuse of power, she has had to admit that more than 2 dozen
contacts were made between her staff and family to the person that she
later fired, pressuring him to fire her ex-brother-in-law. She tried to
replace the man she fired with a man who she knew had been reprimanded
for sexual harassment; when this caused a public furor, she withdrew
her support.

She has bitten the hand of every person who extended theirs to her in
help. The City Council person who personally escorted her around town
introducing her to voters when she first ran for Wasilla City Council
became one of her first targets when she was later elected Mayor. She
abruptly fired her loyal City Administrator; even people who didn’t
like the guy were stunned by this ruthlessness.

Fear of retribution has kept all of these people from saying anything
publicly about her.

When then-Governor Murkowski was handing out political plums, Sarah got
the best, Chair of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission: one
of the few jobs not in Juneau and one of the best paid. She had no
background in oil & gas issues. Within months of scoring this great
job which paid $122,400/yr, she was complaining in the press about the
high salary. I was told that she hated that job: the commute, the
structured hours, the work. Sarah became aware that a member of this
Commission (who was also the State Chair of the Republican Party)
engaged in unethical behavior on the job. In a gutsy move which some
undoubtedly cautioned her could be political suicide, Sarah solved all
her problems in one fell swoop: got out of the job she hated and
garnered gobs of media attention as the patron saint of ethics and as a
gutsy fighter against the “old boys’ club” when she dramatically quit,
exposing this man’s ethics violations (for which he was fined).

As Mayor, she had her hand stuck out as far as anyone for pork from
Senator Ted Stevens. Lately, she has castigated his pork-barrel
politics and publicly humiliated him. She only opposed the “bridge to
nowhere” after it became clear that it would be unwise not to.

As Governor, she gave the Legislature no direction and budget
guidelines, then made a big grandstand display of line-item vetoing
projects, calling them pork. Public outcry and further legislative
action restored most of these projects--which had been vetoed simply
because she was not aware of their importance--but with the unobservant
she had gained a reputation as “anti-pork”.

She is solidly Republican: no political maverick. The State party
leaders hate her because she has bit them in the back and humiliated
them. Other members of the party object to her self-description as a
fiscal conservative.

Around Wasilla there are people who went to high school with Sarah.
They call her “Sarah Barracuda” because of her unbridled ambition and
predatory ruthlessness. Before she became so powerful, very ugly
stories circulated around town about shenanigans she pulled to be made
point guard on the high school basketball team. When Sarah's
mother-in-law, a highly respected member of the community and
experienced manager, ran for Mayor, Sarah refused to endorse her.

As Governor, she stepped outside of the box and put together of package
of legislation known as “AGIA” that forced the oil companies to march
to the beat of her drum.

Like most Alaskans, she favors drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife
Refuge. She has questioned if the loss of sea ice is linked to
global warming. She campaigned “as a private citizen” against a state
initiaitive that would have either a) protected salmon streams from
pollution from mines, or b) tied up in the courts all mining in the
state (depending on who you listen to). She has pushed the State’s
lawsuit against the Dept. of the Interior’s decision to list polar
bears as threatened species.

McCain is the oldest person to ever run for President; Sarah will be a
heartbeat away from being President.

There has to be literally millions of Americans who are more
knowledgeable and experienced than she.

However, there’s a lot of people who have underestimated her and are
regretting it.


Continued...
 
CLAIM VS FACT
•“Hockey mom”: true for a few years
•“PTA mom”: true years ago when her first-born was in elementary
school, not since
•“NRA supporter”: absolutely true
•social conservative: mixed. Opposes gay marriage, BUT vetoed a bill
that would have denied benefits to employees in same-sex relationships
(said she did this because it was unconsitutional).
•pro-creationism: mixed. Supports it, BUT did nothing as Governor to
promote it.
•“Pro-life”: mixed. Knowingly gave birth to a Down’s syndrome baby
BUT declined to call a special legislative session on some pro-life
legislation
•“Experienced”: Some high schools have more students than Wasilla has
residents. Many cities have more residents than the state of Alaska.
No legislative experience other than City Council. Little hands-on
supervisory or managerial experience; needed help of a city
administrator to run town of about 5,000.
•political maverick: not at all
•gutsy: absolutely!
•open & transparent: ??? Good at keeping secrets. Not good at
explaining actions.
•has a developed philosophy of public policy: no
•”a Greenie”: no. Turned Wasilla into a wasteland of big box stores
and disconnected parking lots. Is pro-drilling off-shore and in ANWR.
•fiscal conservative: not by my definition!
•pro-infrastructure: No. Promoted a sports complex and park in a city
without a sewage treatment plant or storm drainage system. Built
streets to early 20th century standards.
•pro-tax relief: Lowered taxes for businesses, increased tax burden on
residents
•pro-small government: No. Oversaw greatest expansion of city
government in Wasilla’s history.
•pro-labor/pro-union. No. Just because her husband works union
doesn’t make her pro-labor. I have seen nothing to support any claim
that she is pro-labor/pro-union.

WHY AM I WRITING THIS?

First, I have long believed in the importance of being an informed
voter. I am a voter registrar. For 10 years I put on student voting
programs in the schools. If you google my name (Anne Kilkenny +
Alaska), you will find references to my participation in local
government, education, and PTA/parent organizations.

Secondly, I've always operated in the belief that "Bad things happen
when good people stay silent". Few people know as much as I do because
few have gone to as many City Council meetings.

Third, I am just a housewife. I don't have a job she can bump me out
of. I don't belong to any organization that she can hurt. But, I am no
fool; she is immensely popular here, and it is likely that this will
cost me somehow in the future: that’s life.

Fourth, she has hated me since back in 1996, when I was one of the 100
or so people who rallied to support the City Librarian against Sarah's
attempt at censorship.

Fifth, I looked around and realized that everybody else was afraid to
say anything because they were somehow vulnerable.

CAVEATS
I am not a statistician. I developed the numbers for the increase in
spending & taxation 2 years ago (when Palin was running for Governor)
from information supplied to me by the Finance Director of the City of
Wasilla, and I can't recall exactly what I adjusted for: did I adjust
for inflation? for population increases? Right now, it is impossible
for a private person to get any info out of City Hall--they are
swamped. So I can't verify my numbers.

You may have noticed that there are various numbers circulating for the
population of Wasilla, ranging from my "about 5,000", up to 9,000. The
day Palin’s selection was announced a city official told me that the
current population is about 7,000. The official 2000 census count was
5,460. I have used about 5,000 because Palin was Mayor from 1996 to
2002, and the city was growing rapidly in the mid-90’s.

Anne Kilkenny
August 31, 2008
 
How come women can call themselve's "just a housewife", but if someone else does they are treated like the Grand Wizard?
 
Basically, Sarah Palin and Hillary Clinton have only 2 things in
common: their gender and their good looks


I stopped there. no sane person could make this argument.
 
Last edited:
Here is my arguement: Cool it.

Sarah palin has been in the national spotlight for...uhh...how long? A couple of days? Even Obama has had 4 years now to explain his platform and thoughts and actions. All these questions on Palin are little different than "how often do you beat your wife(or...husband in this case)?". You think that any rationally-cruel person would give her at least a week to come out and explain her actions. With the quality of news that gets filtered through the campaigns and all, I bet that the only people in the JM camp that knows we are discussing this is their spokesperson, sheesh, give her some time.

I really have to feel with Palin, I know what its like being the new-kid on the block, or for her, the spotlight.
 
Really? There have been folks supposedly from her home town all over the other sites I frequent. Honestly the flood has been so great that I don't even believe any of them are actually any more than RNC plants. You are just a tad gullible huh?

I'm not gullible, just an admin. She's legit.
 
Did that email come with any links to support its 60 or 70 unsourced claims?
 
How come women can call themselve's "just a housewife", but if someone else does they are treated like the Grand Wizard?

Anne Kilkenny is being overly modest at the least to style herself as "just a housewife". She is a very effective Democratic operative in local partisan politics. She is quite sane however, and she does show up at almost every council meeting and assembly meeting. She's also a super voter, and has voted in every election, so she takes her obligations as a citizen quite seriously.

John Stein is also a registered Democrat, and was quite active as well. Even though the Wasilla mayor is officially nonpartisan, the race back then between John Stein (at that point a three term mayor) and Sarah Palin was clearly partisan.

The Republican won. The Democrats didn't like the outcome. Neither did the senior city staff, as they were mostly registered Democrats, and had strongly supported John as the Democratic candidate (it didn't hurt that he had hired them all as well).

Sarah wasn't too keen about their support for her opponent, and fired some of them, citing their lack of support for her administration, likely based on their political activities (remember there is no Hatch Act in local politics).

All in all, pretty typical small town politics. If you follow the articles mentioned, you'll find that the NYT and Time articles are a bit coy about their sources. Anne and John and possibly a few other unhappy Democrats are the source.

These complaints about Sarah's actions as mayor have been anti-Sarah Democratic talking points since that long-ago election, and Anne has done a very good job of keeping them alive over the years. She is rather good at getting attention from the news media. She is smart, articulate, and has very striking silver hair, which may appeal to the TV media. (Bet I get flamed for that last, but she really is photogenic. In my defense, I pay more attention to the smart and articulate part).

For deeply felt ideological reasons, Anne the Democrat has never liked--in a political sense; she's very well-mannered--Sarah the Republican. Anne didn't like Sarah before she was the mayor. Anne campaigned for John against Sarah. Anne didn't like Sarah as mayor. Anne doesn't like Sarah as Governor, and Anne won't like Sarah if she becomes VP. They are political enemies, because they are in opposing political parties. Anne will continue to point out, in every forum, the flaws she sees in Sarah, primarily that Sarah is a Republican!

As for me, I'm registered Undeclared. I mostly lean toward Republican views, but deal with each issue on its merits, which means I'm more Libertarian on some issues, and more Liberal on others. Library censorship is an issue I am vehemently opposed to. (I don't think that's a prerogative of liberals; it rots the fabric of society. Besides, many of my ancestors were librarians).

If you read my posts carefully, without preconceived perceptual filters, you'll see that I hope and expect others to do likewise. With respect to the old censorship allegation, I assert from my direct experience that it didn't happen, and I invite you to review the books in the Wasilla Library catalog to judge for yourself. It doesn't get any more objective than that.

If you are unable or unwilling to look for yourself, then pick up to 10 titles that you think are likely censorship candidates, and I'll tell you if they are in the Wasilla Library (or the Mat-Su Library system, of which Wasilla Library is a member). As an aside, inter-library loan makes any attempt to cull books from a single library rather pointless.

As for the laughable suggestion that I'm somehow a Republican plant from Boca Raton, I dare you to ask me about local Wasilla trivia. That ought to weed out any impostor rather quickly. Once I stop laughing, of course.

Sarah has done some things I don't like, especially firing Walt. That is coming back to haunt her, and it's not going away any time soon. Today, Frank Bailey decided he's not going to cooperate with Steve Branchflower, which is a dumb move. There are some significant skeletons in that closet.

I do think overall that Sarah will make a good VP. I'm not at all convinced that being VP will be good for Sarah. I recognize the advancement for women that will result from Sarah in the VP slot, but I think about Sarah the person. She and her family were back in church (I may really regret revealing this, but yes, I'm also a member of Wasilla Bible Church) a couple of weeks ago for a dedication service for Trig. At the time, I remember thinking that if Troopergate really blew up, and Sarah stepped down as Governor, that she and Todd and the family would have more chances to be in church, and that would be good. She does attend other churches as she can, in Juneau and elsewhere, but if she's elected VP it will get harder.

I think that's the real cost of higher offices; it's hard to stay connected with your roots. I doubt Sarah will be doing much more fishing, and I doubt Todd will be running any more Iron Dogs. And that church service was probably the last time they could sit in some folding chairs a few rows away from me, and just be the Palin family, and not be the center of attention, but rather just members of the church with an infant to dedicate. No Secret Service, no state troopers (other than one singing on stage), no fuss and bother. When the rush fades, they'll miss that. And that's why we pray for elected leaders.
 
Well, the bolded part of your quote seems to support the media reports that a librarian wouldn't ban books, so was fired, and another librarian found that would agree with Palin and ban books based on " librarian's judgment" that more closely reflected Palin's religiosity. You've posted nothing here to convince me that the blogosphere is wrong. Nor does your attempt at a grammar lesson really hold water. What a stretch.

I guess you can twist the meaning into that if you are determined to. The truth is much simpler. Libraries have budgets. They can only buy so many books. Someone has to decide what books to buy, and what to sell. I think that person should be the librarian, not a political ideologue from either side of the spectrum. Hence my comment about a "librarian's judgment".

I go to the Library book sales, because I'm a book junkie. I haven't noticed any purging of books favoring one political or religious viewpoint over another at any of the sales since before Sarah was mayor until past the end of her terms.

Finally, the librarian back then wasn't fired. Mary Ellen stayed on for several more years. She and Sarah never got along well, and eventually Mary Ellen moved on to another job. I don't know if the friction with Sarah was a reason, or perhaps the new library had a better salary and a bigger book budget. The librarian after her didn't censor any books either.

In other posts, I've directed you to the librarian's blog, the external (definitely not city controlled) Friends of the Library, and the collection itself. Rather than your speculative comments about SP's "religiosity" (whatever that means), please go look for yourself and see if you can find any evidence to support this old politically motivated complaint.

Then tell me how SP's Christian faith will impact her performance as VP? As I recall, all Presidents and VPs have proclaimed a Christian faith of one type or another. If you just don't like the idea of a Christian as VP (or President), then you should say so directly rather than by snarky comments about "religiosity", and defend your preference for an atheist, deist, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Jew, Taoist, Shinto, Wiccan, or whatever creed. And see if you can convince enough other Americans to agree with you in November. They won't be Democrats or Republicans, though.
 
Anne Kilkenny is being overly modest at the least to style herself as "just a housewife". She is a very effective Democratic operative in local partisan politics. She is quite sane however, and she does show up at almost every council meeting and assembly meeting. She's also a super voter, and has voted in every election, so she takes her obligations as a citizen quite seriously.

John Stein is also a registered Democrat, and was quite active as well. Even though the Wasilla mayor is officially nonpartisan, the race back then between John Stein (at that point a three term mayor) and Sarah Palin was clearly partisan.

The Republican won. The Democrats didn't like the outcome. Neither did the senior city staff, as they were mostly registered Democrats, and had strongly supported John as the Democratic candidate (it didn't hurt that he had hired them all as well).

Sarah wasn't too keen about their support for her opponent, and fired some of them, citing their lack of support for her administration, likely based on their political activities (remember there is no Hatch Act in local politics).

All in all, pretty typical small town politics. If you follow the articles mentioned, you'll find that the NYT and Time articles are a bit coy about their sources. Anne and John and possibly a few other unhappy Democrats are the source.

These complaints about Sarah's actions as mayor have been anti-Sarah Democratic talking points since that long-ago election, and Anne has done a very good job of keeping them alive over the years. She is rather good at getting attention from the news media. She is smart, articulate, and has very striking silver hair, which may appeal to the TV media. (Bet I get flamed for that last, but she really is photogenic. In my defense, I pay more attention to the smart and articulate part).

For deeply felt ideological reasons, Anne the Democrat has never liked--in a political sense; she's very well-mannered--Sarah the Republican. Anne didn't like Sarah before she was the mayor. Anne campaigned for John against Sarah. Anne didn't like Sarah as mayor. Anne doesn't like Sarah as Governor, and Anne won't like Sarah if she becomes VP. They are political enemies, because they are in opposing political parties. Anne will continue to point out, in every forum, the flaws she sees in Sarah, primarily that Sarah is a Republican!

As for me, I'm registered Undeclared. I mostly lean toward Republican views, but deal with each issue on its merits, which means I'm more Libertarian on some issues, and more Liberal on others. Library censorship is an issue I am vehemently opposed to. (I don't think that's a prerogative of liberals; it rots the fabric of society. Besides, many of my ancestors were librarians).

If you read my posts carefully, without preconceived perceptual filters, you'll see that I hope and expect others to do likewise. With respect to the old censorship allegation, I assert from my direct experience that it didn't happen, and I invite you to review the books in the Wasilla Library catalog to judge for yourself. It doesn't get any more objective than that.

If you are unable or unwilling to look for yourself, then pick up to 10 titles that you think are likely censorship candidates, and I'll tell you if they are in the Wasilla Library (or the Mat-Su Library system, of which Wasilla Library is a member). As an aside, inter-library loan makes any attempt to cull books from a single library rather pointless.

As for the laughable suggestion that I'm somehow a Republican plant from Boca Raton, I dare you to ask me about local Wasilla trivia. That ought to weed out any impostor rather quickly. Once I stop laughing, of course.

Sarah has done some things I don't like, especially firing Walt. That is coming back to haunt her, and it's not going away any time soon. Today, Frank Bailey decided he's not going to cooperate with Steve Branchflower, which is a dumb move. There are some significant skeletons in that closet.

I do think overall that Sarah will make a good VP. I'm not at all convinced that being VP will be good for Sarah. I recognize the advancement for women that will result from Sarah in the VP slot, but I think about Sarah the person. She and her family were back in church (I may really regret revealing this, but yes, I'm also a member of Wasilla Bible Church) a couple of weeks ago for a dedication service for Trig. At the time, I remember thinking that if Troopergate really blew up, and Sarah stepped down as Governor, that she and Todd and the family would have more chances to be in church, and that would be good. She does attend other churches as she can, in Juneau and elsewhere, but if she's elected VP it will get harder.

I think that's the real cost of higher offices; it's hard to stay connected with your roots. I doubt Sarah will be doing much more fishing, and I doubt Todd will be running any more Iron Dogs. And that church service was probably the last time they could sit in some folding chairs a few rows away from me, and just be the Palin family, and not be the center of attention, but rather just members of the church with an infant to dedicate. No Secret Service, no state troopers (other than one singing on stage), no fuss and bother. When the rush fades, they'll miss that. And that's why we pray for elected leaders.

I appreciate having you sharing your opinion here. Keep it up.

I'm not sure why you quoted my post. I realize what Anne was doing, she was minimizing her stature. It's okay for her to do that, but if a man does it, he's a chauvenist or misogynist.

I never made any claims about the book banning issue. I doubt that an effective leader would really ask useless hypothetical questions about censorship. I'm guessing that Palin's time is valuable to her.

She also has to consider how things sound to people. Would it be wise to call Tehran and ask, "Hey, what if we nuked you? Hypothetically speaking, of course."

Asking a librarian hypotheticals about censoring books is just daft. Librarians are the most opposed to book bannings. It's like asking an African-American "Hey, what if we bring back segregation? Hypothetically, of course."

What can you tell us about your church? Do you practice "prayer speak"? Do you lay hands on people? I've heard these things but have no idea if they are true. I've been to churches where this does happen.
 
I appreciate having you sharing your opinion here. Keep it up.

I'm not sure why you quoted my post. I realize what Anne was doing, she was minimizing her stature. It's okay for her to do that, but if a man does it, he's a chauvinist or misogynist.

...

What can you tell us about your church? Do you practice "prayer speak"? Do you lay hands on people? I've heard these things but have no idea if they are true. I've been to churches where this does happen.

Your post was a convenient size to quote, and made more sense than the other one. I agree with you about the double standard on labels, but white males might as well get used to it; it isn't going to change in a PC world.

There are lots of crazy comments being made about Wasilla Bible Church (WBC) from people determined to fit it into some predefined stereotype of "Christian Crazies". Since I'm a member, obviously it suits me, so I won't claim any neutral POV here.

I like to style myself as a "logical Christian", most strongly influenced by C.S. Lewis and Madeleine L'Engle. Intellectual honesty is important to me. Like Jack Lewis, I didn't intend to become a Christian, but I was surprised by joy. In my case, it didn't involve a woman named Joy. I had been an American Buddhist sliding slowly into existentialism when I had my nose rubbed in the reality of Jesus' impact on human history and on people around me now, culminating in His impact on me. But this is trending off-topic for the current discussion.

WBC is simultaneously a conservative Christian Church in thought, while being a loving Christian community in actions. That means that you are free to worship as you please, within the bounds of not unduly distracting your neighbors (see Romans 14). The motto of the church is "We don't row this boat", and we have a scale model of a fully rigged schooner floating around the church somewhere. The core commitments and statement of faith are posted on the church website. Sermons in audio and transcripts for the past few years are available too.

That's kinda intellectual. Here's what it feels like. We meet in a large metal building that someday will be a basketball court. We put out folding chairs, usually facing a small stage, but sometimes in a circle around a plain wooden cross (for communion in the round).

The first part of the service is singing. We have several groups that take turns from week to week. Music ranges from bluegrass to rock to jazz to old hymns to classical. Instruments include guitars, piano, organ, drum set, dulcimer, banjo, string bass, violin, clarinets, flute, mandolin, violin, trumpet, kazoo, mouth harp, harmonica, and of course the human voice.

It is NOT a performance, it is shared worship. We rarely applaud, except sometimes for visitors. We are still working on the clapping together for some songs, but the lead pastor is rhythm challenged. There are three projector screens so you can see the words from any direction. If you want to raise your hand or hands during the worship part of the service, go for it. Depending on the mood, I guess maybe 10 to 20% do, but it's not a required or discouraged thing. I guess people could be speaking in tongues if they want to, but that's not a focus of worship or a public thing. It would be hard to tell over the singing anyway, because we're usually pretty loud.

We don't fool around with hymnals, and everybody brings their own Bible(s). There are some loaners out in the lobby if you need one.

Speaking of Bibles, there are a lot of them. After the singing worship, we spend about 20 to 30 minutes of the roughly one hour "service" in teaching. When one of the pastors preaches, almost everyone grabs their Bible to check out his teaching. Many people have notebooks, and take notes. Sometimes things get interactive, though as the congregation has grown, that's harder to do during the service, so people discuss issues afterward.

If this sounds informal, it is. We're not big on ritual. We do observe the ritual Christ commanded. We have communion at least on the first Sunday of every month, which means if the reporters show up again this Sunday, they will be invited to participate. The usual introduction to communion is "if you believe Christ died for you, join right in. If you aren't sure about this whole Christian thing, feel free to just watch. It's up to you." We rarely do "altar calls", but we do have a couple of pastors or elders hanging out near the front after church if anybody needs one.

There is no dress code, other than some semblance of modesty, and that is subject to personal interpretation and temperature. Mostly we're a blue jeans church, though there are some suits and ties. Some women cover their heads, some don't. The culturally Russian people tend to have embroidered shirts for the men, and long dresses and little caps for the women. I guess there is some sort of peer pressure among the women of the church to not be too blatant. It's worship and learning rather than a fashion show. It's very Alaskan.

People cover the spectrum. It's predominately white, with a significant number of Alaskan Natives, a few blacks, and lots of other categories. The most common languages are English, Russian, Spanish, and Yupik. Some people are on welfare, some are millionaires. Some are "housewives", some are legislators and CEOs. Most are middle class families raising their kids. Over the summer, some of us worked on some Habitat for Humanity houses; one was for a divorced mother with kids who is a church member.

There are some conservative customs. All of the elders and pastors are men. I've had some discussions with several of the elders and pastors about whether this should be a strict rule or not, as I feel women can and should serve in such roles. We shall see. So far, the women of the church seem to have plenty of say in how we do things, and frequently lead music worship. And they mostly control all the youth teaching.

We do "lay hands" on people sometimes; usually when they are embarking on something challenging. This is usually done by a pastor and some elders, though that's not a strict rule. Sometimes family members get in the act too. That's just formal enough to accomplish the purpose. I don't know what "prayer speak" is, unless you mean "speaking in tongues" or glossolalia? If we do that, I guess we do it privately. The Bible says that if you want to do that publicly, there has to be an interpreter, otherwise it isn't useful. We do teach about gifts of the Spirit sometimes, but tongues aren’t emphasized. Nor is spoken prophecy in church. We tend to focus on gifts like mercy, and service, and discernment, and wisdom, and administration. It's up to God whatever gifts people discover and use. Our focus is on helping people use the talents they have for the benefit of all.

That reminds me; most of the interactive sort of stuff including spiritual gifts occurs in small home groups. People are encouraged to form groups of 10 to 12 people (usually couples) and meet in homes. There usually is some sort of study material, but that varies widely depending on the nature of the group. I led one of these groups for several years, and we ranged all over the Bible. I'm not currently involved in a group, but probably will be again. We didn't do "tongues" or anything else showy in my small group either, but it's likely that some groups might do it sometimes.

I don't have a clue about the political makeup of the church, except that there are Republicans, Democrats, and others there. Your political affiliation is just not relevant to worship. When Todd and Sarah came a few weeks back, it was to worship and have a dedication ceremony for Trig. They were not the focus of attention, except during a brief prayer at the start of the service. After that, they sat back down, sang along in worship, listened to the guest speaker, and left. I didn't notice anybody crowding around them, except for the usual admiring circle of women checking out the new baby.

I guess we're a pretty typical non-denominational church centered on the Bible, without a lot of ritual, and very pragmatic. We do believe in an infinite, personal God, and we believe we each have a personal relationship with Him. We don't blindly follow any person or creed; we study, think about it, question it if we don't get it, and do our best to live up to our ideals.

I hope that gives you a taste of WBC. Feel free to listen to or read the sermons online. If you want the whole experience (sorta), you can request a CD of the entire service, music and all, for $2 (plus whatever it costs to mail it, I guess). Or if you happen to be in Wasilla, drop on in. Services are at 9:30 and 11:15. Come as you are.
 
How come women can call themselve's "just a housewife", but if someone else does they are treated like the Grand Wizard?
*humrph* Thats 'Dark Wizard' to you. :p
 
Sarah has done some things I don't like, especially firing Walt. That is coming back to haunt her, and it's not going away any time soon. Today, Frank Bailey decided he's not going to cooperate with Steve Branchflower, which is a dumb move. There are some significant skeletons in that closet.

ABC News has exclusively learned that Alaska Senator Hollis French will announce today that he is moving up the release date of his investigation into whether Gov. Sarah Palin abused her office to get the Alaska public safety commissioner, Walt Monegan, fired. The results of the investigation were originally scheduled for release Oct. 31 but will now come almost three weeks earlier, according to sources.

ABC News: Investigation into Palin Now on Fast Track


I believe you are correct. It's coming back to haunt her.

:2wave:
 
ABC News has exclusively learned that Alaska Senator Hollis French will announce today that he is moving up the release date of his investigation into whether Gov. Sarah Palin abused her office to get the Alaska public safety commissioner, Walt Monegan, fired. The results of the investigation were originally scheduled for release Oct. 31 but will now come almost three weeks earlier, according to sources.

ABC News: Investigation into Palin Now on Fast Track


I believe you are correct. It's coming back to haunt her.

:2wave:
And if there is nothing?

I seriously believe Palin didn't do anyhting wrong, and looking at it at face-value, there is nothing to suggest wrong-doing accept Palin just happens to related to one of the...whoever it is... Guy did wrong and got punished.
 
"Dared". You can criticise the guy, his church, and his views intellectually (which I have done- I'm eastern orthodox), but dammit most of the reason you had white people getting their panties in a bunch is because 1) he was an angry black man, and 2) Most people don't know jack about their own theology, so they jumped on the bandwagon.

This whole spring I was extremely depressed, and had felt left out in the media. My whole (white) family was having a field day when I got home from school. The first thing my dad said to me was, "You hear what that nigger's pastor said?"

Like I have said before, race is the only thing that will get me worked up or the least bit angry. And I was distraught during that whole Wright "controversy".

What are you worried about ?- it didn't change your mind about him- and he's still ahead in the polls. :roll:
 
ABC News has exclusively learned that Alaska Senator Hollis French will announce today that he is moving up the release date of his investigation into whether Gov. Sarah Palin abused her office to get the Alaska public safety commissioner, Walt Monegan, fired. The results of the investigation were originally scheduled for release Oct. 31 but will now come almost three weeks earlier, according to sources.

ABC News: Investigation into Palin Now on Fast Track


I believe you are correct. It's coming back to haunt her.

:2wave:


Let me get this straight. This Democrat:

Hollis French - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Who has said things like this:

"It's likely to be damaging to the Governor's administration," said Senator Hollis French

"The Governor first issued a blanket denial but now she's had to back down and that's a problem," said French. "She has a credibility problem," he said.

French says the McCain campaign failed to contact any of the Senators involved in the investigation during the vetting process of Gov. Palin.

"If they had done their job they never would have picked her," said French. "Now they may have to deal with an October surprise," he said, referring to the scheduled release Oct. 31 of the committee's final report.

Is the guy in charge of issuing an "unbiased" and "bipartisan" report about what happened?

Sure doesn't sound like he's made up his mind or has an ax to grind.:roll:
 
He's also an open Obama supporter:

Barack Obama | AK HQ Blog

And has been attacking McCain:

Obama Hopes to Take Hold of 7 Traditionally GOP States - America’s Election HQ

I haven't done many criminal investigations yet, but I don't think you're supposed to speculate in the media about the target's guilt.

I think what's going to be funniest and most ironic is people are going to come in here and likely say "Yeah, he may seemed biased or maybe he is connected to Obama and against McCain...but that doesn't change the fact he can act impartial and make a judgement based on the facts without his own biases".
 
Let me get this straight. This Democrat:

Hollis French - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes. One and the same:

Hollis S. French II is a Democratic member of the Alaska Senate, representing the M district since 2003. He is chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

French is a graduate of the University of Alaska, Anchorage (B.A. English) and of Cornell Law School (Juris doctor). Before being elected to the state Senate, French was an assistant district attorney. He has climbed Mt. McKinley to the summit twice. [1]

In 2008, French was appointed by his fellow senators to head an investigation into charges that Gov. Sarah Palin "abused her office to get the Alaska public safety commissioner, Walt Monegan, fired." [2]

Who has said things like this:

"It's likely to be damaging to the Governor's administration," said Senator Hollis French


Yes......

"The Governor first issued a blanket denial but now she's had to back down and that's a problem," said French. "She has a credibility problem," he said.

I haven't seen this one, but......Did Palin first issue a blanket denial? Did she switch horses? If yes, then Palin does have a credibility problem. Why would you think otherwise?


French says the McCain campaign failed to contact any of the Senators involved in the investigation during the vetting process of Gov. Palin.

"If they had done their job they never would have picked her," said French. "Now they may have to deal with an October surprise," he said, referring to the scheduled release Oct. 31 of the committee's final report.


I haven't seen this one either, but I imagine as an Alaskan Senator, he's much more aware of Palin issues than either you and I are.

I'll have to wait and see..........do you have links to either of your two quotes? I'd like to read the articles.



Is the guy in charge of issuing an "unbiased" and "bipartisan" report about what happened?

Sure doesn't sound like he's made up his mind or has an ax to grind.:roll:

I'm not reading anything about an ax to Grind, RNYC. I'm reading that he believes Palin has a credibility problem. I'm reading that he doesn't believe she was vetted as she should have been.

Do you think he's alone in his way of thinking? Come on.....
 
I haven't seen this one either, but I imagine as an Alaskan Senator, he's much more aware of Palin issues than either you and I are.

And I'm imagining that as a Democrat working to get Obama elected, he has much more vested in making sure this report looks as bad as possible than you, I, or an impartial observer.


I'll have to wait and see..........do you have links to either of your two quotes? I'd like to read the articles.

They're from the ABC article linked in wiki. It's the earlier version of the article you cited.


I'm not reading anything about an ax to Grind, RNYC. I'm reading that he believes Palin has a credibility problem. I'm reading that he doesn't believe she was vetted as she should have been.

Do you think he's alone in his way of thinking? Come on.....

Of course not.

Do I think he should be in charge of this investigation? Of course not.

You would be throwing a fit if an investigation into Biden was being run by some down home far right-wing Republican.
 
Do I think he should be in charge of this investigation? Of course not.

Wasn't he put in charge of the investigation of Palin prior to her nomination of McCain's VP?

McCain & Co were aware of who was in charge of the investigation prior to choosing Palin for the GOP VP so if you have a problem with who is leading the investigation......your problem should be with McCain & Co. not with the Senator who was performing the investigation prior to Palin's nomination.

FIT?
let's not go there, OK?

:2wave:
 
is this pastor her mentor of 20 years or is he pastor at a church she has attended.

and won't this backfire? i mean if you give this any credence, that makes the obama look 100x worse, no?

Obama renounced Wright, remember? She's still listening. :2wave:
 
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