International Jewish Banking Conspiracy

The Truth-Bringer · Sep 12, 2005

Tashah said:
You just don't seem to get it. Are you that thick? Once again I shall explain for your explicit benefit and also, to further enlighten eveyone reading this thread that David Irving is not an historian but rather... a liar, a cheat, an anti-Semite, a racist, and a flim-flam man.

Irving vrs Lipstadt / Great Britain High Court / 2000

Although the Lipstadt defense proposed to prove to the Court dozens of examples of historical revisionism, ghost sources, and fakery by Irving... Judge Gray settled on 13 specific examples. This block of 13 examples covered every historical book ever written by Irving.

These 13 examples were examined in depth by the Court appointed Historian:

Professor Richard Evans - Modern History Ph.D. - Cambridge

General
His work has dealt with Holocaust denial and the clash of epistemologies when history enters the courtroom. He is currently writing a large-scale history of the Third Reich; volume one, covering the period to July 1933, was published in October 2003, volume two, dealing with the years 1933-39, is scheduled for publication in October 2005, and volume 3, covering the years 1933-45, in September 2007.

Awards
Editor of the Journal of Contemporary History since 1998 and a judge of the Wolfson Literary Award for History since 1993. Over the years, his work has won the Wolfson Literary Award for History, the William H. Welch Medal of the American Association for the History of Medicine, the Fraenkel Prize in Contemporary History, and the Hamburg Medaille für Kunst und Wissenschaft. He is a Fellow of the British Academy, the Royal Society of Literature and the Royal Historical Society, and an Honorary Fellow of Jesus College, Oxford, and Birkbeck College, London.

Teaching
He teaches a document-based history of the Third Reich in Part II of the Historical Tripos. He established and directs the one-year M.Phil. in Modern European History, and teaches the core course on 'History and Historians'.

Research
Richard Evans has supervised research in late nineteenth- and twentieth-century German and comparative history while holding Chairs at the Universities of East Anglia and London, as well as more recently in Cambridge.

Historical Books
• Society and Politics in Wilhelmine Germany (London, 1978)
• Death in Hamburg: Society and Politics in the Cholera Years 1830-1910 (Oxford, 1987)
• Rethinking German History (London, 1987)
• Kneipengespräche im Kaiserreich (Reinbek, 1988)
• In Hitler's Shadow: West German Historians and the Attempt to Escape from the Nazi Past (New York, 1989)
• Rituals of Retribution: Capital Punishment in Germany 1700-1987 (Oxford, 1996)
• Tales from the German Underworld: Crime and Punishment in the Nineteenth Century (London, 1998)
• In Defence of History (2nd edn. London, 2001)
• Telling Lies About Hitler: History, the Holocaust and the David Irving Trial (London, 2002)
• The Coming of the Third Reich (London, 2003)

Professor Evans was assisted in his Court appointed duties by a prolific team of historical researchers, document analysis specialists, and archive librarians from around the world. He was also assisted in examing the 13 chosen examples by recognized experts in the relevant fields of inquiry. By the beginning of the trial, Professor Evans had assembled 20 linear feet of specific documentation pertinint to the 13 sampled examples in Irvings many publications.

(For the benefit of readers here... prior to the trial, Professor Evans believed the historical work of David Irving to be generally valid, albeit unconventional. It was only after Evans delved deeply into the work of Irving that he realized the stunning truth... Professor Lipstadt was correct in everything she had written about Irving in her book: Denying the Holocaust.)

In the Court testimony of Professor Evans, he proved via documentation that: "Irving is not an Historian but rather... an anti-Semite and racist who manipulates History to serve his hideous agendas". Professor Evans testified that Irving has falsified history in each and all of his historical books.

I highly recommend the 2002 book published by Professor Evans (bolded above) concerning the Irving vrs Lipstadt trial. He is a noted Historian (not Jewish), had no axe to grind, and actually respected Irving before being appointed by the Court to investigate Irving's published historical catalogue.

Professor Lipstadt, Professor Evans, expet witnesses, and historical documentation all contributed to unmask David Irving. He is among the lowest of the low. Judge Gray agreed completely in rendering the verdict.

if you had read clearly my post, Because Like I said Earlier , I already admited that apparently the evidence supports that David Irving is a Bad Historian, but it is Evil to make him suffer because of it, and there are soooo many other bad historians out there that the press just loves and that gain such prestige in the public. And Like I said , just because they were wrongly sourced and bad arguments , doesnt make the Conclusion False.

The Truth-Bringer · Sep 12, 2005

righton said:
Aryan Imperium

I don't see anybody stopping you and or someone else to engage with fundemmental polamic of crime against humanity based on peoples race, religion, or color of skin. It is off limit to those Nazi's and their sypathizers who had never accepted responsibilities to Nazi Germany's haious crimes. Those who still think Hitler was hero to them.

Had a group from your race, or religion had faced the same horror, as Jews and Gypcies had during the WWII, you would also would be as vocal as they are.

Because those systematic exterminations against Jews and other ethnic groups by Nazi Germany were so horrifying with their crulety, and ferocity. After that, entire world community. Particularly that of post war Germany, have decided to take tangible abnd forceful steps to never allow it to occure again.

I don't know what to you mean by that. Care to elaborate?

Or, do you mean to suggest that, those Jews, whom post-war Germany itself had acknowledged the atrocities against them, and accepted responsibilities for them, are not entitled to finacial compensation for the Nazi's loot and other confiscation of Jews properties.

Ill help him Clear up what he means by the money part, If you want a good report of it, see "The Holocaust Industry" By The Jewish Scholar Norman Finkelstein, a VERY Good Scholar, and not a holocaust denier. He basically states that the Jewish Organizations are asking for Holocaust-Survivor money from the Swiss Banks to feed holocaust survivors, even though the holocaust survivors died either 1.) In The Holocaust and the Organizations are making it up to get money or just bad research, or 2.) They died quiet some time ago after the holocaust. and the Organizations state this money is to go to the survivors , not the families who are struggling, but to the dead survivors, and if the survivors dont exist, they get to keep the money, and even if they do, the organizations get like a 30% "Fee" from the money or something. And they refuse to give it to the often very poor families of the survivors, which shows how capitalism has corrupted part of the Jewish Organizations. (At least their top Heads).

And also one thing: I think he means the hypocricy of the world in this holocaust question, it is right to have museams and reparations and compensation for the holocaust, but why not for other crimes? There is No Museam for African SLavery, or American Indian Geonicide, nor any international meeting for them when either one of those cost more lives than pretty much 5 holocausts combined. (African Slavery: 16,000,000-160,000,000 Deaths) (Indian Slaughter: 10,000,000-100,000,000), and other such `cases like Stalin, who operated at the same time, or Those Western Colonies! The Colonies alone counted for milllions of innocent deaths, there is NO MUSeAM To commemorate them, NONE.

Now What Kind of Justice is that?

righton · Sep 12, 2005

The Truth-Bringer,
OK I read NYT's 6-Aug-2000 review of his book. and Salon.com interview with him . I will let excerpts from this respected paper's book review, and the interview with Finkelstein himself speak for themselves.

READ IT, THEN JUDGE FOR YOURSELF, TO FIND OUT HIS TRUE MOTIVES FOR WRITING THE BOOK.

NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/books/00/08/06/reviews/000806.06bartovt.html

Finkelstein views himself as innocent of any desire to exploit ''The Holocaust'' for his own ends, unlike his apparently countless enemies. The fact that his sensational ''revelations'' and outrageous accusations draw a great deal of public and media attention is no fault of his own.

And in a typical intellectual dishonesty.

Nowhere does Finkelstein mention that the main beneficiaries of compensation for forced labor will be elderly gentile men and women living their last days in poverty in Eastern Europe, or that German scholars like Ulrich Herbert, hardly an employee of ''Jewish interests,'' have been at the forefront of the struggle to gain compensation from corporations that for decades refused to admit their enormous gains from slave and forced labor

Here are excerpt from an Aug. 30, 2000 inteview with Norman by Salon.com:

http://www.salon.com/books/int/2000/08/30/finkelstein/index.html
Question:

You're a historian, right?

Finkelstein:

I'm many things.

Question:

If you're a historian, why didn't you write a serious study about the subject? Why didn't you do research yourself? Interview people, etc.?

Finkelstein:

Why should I interview people?

Here is a moment of truth from this gentleman:.

Question:

Your mother received $3,500 from the German government right after the war. What happened?

Finkelstein:

In the '50s my mother, a mathematician who worked for Chase Manhattan Bank, was diagnosed by a doctor -- I believe it was a Jewish doctor -- as having extreme hysteria, but this was not from her experiences in Majdanek, she was told, but from her difficulty with adjusting in the U.S. -- which is, of course, a filthy diagnosis. The Claims Conference was exactly designed to pay out money to people like my mother, who were either unfairly or inadequately compensated by the initial reparations. Cases like hers were being corrected by giving a lump sum. But she didn't get a penny. Only so-called outstanding Jewish leaders and rabbis got anything.

My father got injured in Auschwitz and was given a lifetime pension by the Germans. They delivered the money promptly and efficiently. I still remember the blue envelopes from Trier. My father had Alzheimer's near the end of his life and I was his guardian. Every three months I had to go to the German consulate to pick up his checks and to prove that he was still alive. At the end of his life it came down to $600 a month. All in all, $250,000 during his lifetime.

Question:

On the one hand you complain about Jewish organizations claiming too much money; on the other you complain that people like your mother didn't get enough.

Now he gets defensive, and tried to duck the question: read this.

Finkelstein:

Some people misinterpret my book as saying I'm against compensation. Oh no, I'm not! I'm all for compensation. But it should only go to the real victims, and not to pseudo victims or to Jewish communities and organizations.

His bottom line motives!!!!!!!!!!!!. Much like the rest of them GREEED & PROFIT. Write about subject which you know well, it will touch nerves, and create conrovercies. Get free publicities. Then watch the your bank account get fatter.
If by now you have not detected that mantra, then think again.

The Truth-Bringer · Sep 13, 2005

Well His Last comment was true, He DOES SUPPORT COMPENSATION, Which there should be, just he says those fakers shouldn't get any compensation, so the interviewer was trying to lure him into a word trap, or unconciously trapping him. I quote what you quoted:

"Some people misinterpret my book as saying I'm against compensation. Oh no, I'm not! I'm all for compensation. But it should only go to the real victims, and not to pseudo victims or to Jewish communities and organizations."

He says : Some People misinterpret his book as saying hes against compensation, when as he says thats misinterpretting, so thus he means he is for compensation, but he said REAL Victims. Whats wrong with that?

And besides, if he really wanted to sell big time, he could have done A LOT OF FAKING. His one sold well, but it certianly didnt win him much prestige, nor as much money he could have got instead about writing a memoir about his parents holocaust experiences or something else. If he was a faker...he could do a lot more and get a lot more money and prestige. Thats why its unreasonable and unlikely that he is, and his facts seem worthy, unless of course you show me how their wrong or falsified.

And Just because he doesnt mention them, does not at all make his argument wrong. THis Fallacy of Omition is common, but he simply cant do research or doesnt want to do research that doesnt pertain to his topic he's writing on. So he writes about how The people are exploiting it, so someone else go and write about how the Banks and cooperations are refusing, its how history works and writing works.

And one question:
How Does that make his motives Greed and Profit? Obviously every author NEEDS Profit, or he cant publish his books and such or live. So Obviously he needs profit, but he also writes very well, and since that motive of profit, pretty much ever writer or worker or guy who works has a Motive for Profit.

robin · Sep 13, 2005

The Truth-Bringer said:
if you had read clearly my post, Because Like I said Earlier , I already admited that apparently the evidence supports that David Irving is a Bad Historian, but it is Evil to make him suffer because of it, and there are soooo many other bad historians out there that the press just loves and that gain such prestige in the public.

'Bad historian' :lol:
No... more like 'compulsive liar'.
Why do you call yourself 'Truth bringer' ?
Incidently... you ought to list 60,000,000 killed in Mao's cultural revolution if the Guiness book of records is correct.

The Truth-Bringer · Sep 13, 2005

robin said:
'Bad historian' :lol:
No... more like 'compulsive liar'.
Why do you call yourself 'Truth bringer' ?
Incidently... you ought to list 60,000,000 killed in Mao's cultural revolution if the Guiness book of records is correct.

60,000,000 Killed in Maos Cultural Revolution? bagh What kind of propoganda is that! No serious scholars say close to that number! Shows people how sometimes The Guiness book of records can say absurd and truly wrong things. The range of dead for Mao's Cultural Revolution is around 500,000-20,000,000, it depends how you count who died "In" The cultural revolution:
Executions? The Lagoi Camps? Or other things. The statement by Guiness seems very general and unspecific.

And also back to your first part i didnt see earier...He is a bad Historian, thats the definition if he falsifies sources. If you call him "compulsive liar", then go call Goldhagen a compulsive liar too, even though I dont believe any of them "lied", just their methods were absurd and bad.

righton · Sep 13, 2005

The Truth-Bringer said:
Well His Last comment was true, He DOES SUPPORT COMPENSATION, Which there should be, just he says those fakers shouldn't get any compensation, so the interviewer was trying to lure him into a word trap, or unconciously trapping him. I quote what you quoted:

"Some people misinterpret my book as saying I'm against compensation. Oh no, I'm not! I'm all for compensation. But it should only go to the real victims, and not to pseudo victims or to Jewish communities and organizations."

Anybody who is telling the truth from his heart can not, and will not fall in what you term "word trap". Period.

He says : Some People misinterpret his book as saying hes against compensation, when as he says thats misinterpretting, so thus he means he is for compensation, but he said REAL Victims. Whats wrong with that?

And besides, if he really wanted to sell big time, he could have done A LOT OF FAKING. His one sold well, but it certianly didnt win him much prestige, nor as much money he could have got instead about writing a memoir about his parents holocaust experiences or something else. If he was a faker...he could do a lot more and get a lot more money and prestige. Thats why its unreasonable and unlikely that he is, and his facts seem worthy, unless of course you show me how their wrong or falsified.

And Just because he doesnt mention them, does not at all make his argument wrong. THis Fallacy of Omition is common, but he simply cant do research or doesnt want to do research that doesnt pertain to his topic he's writing on. So he writes about how The people are exploiting it, so someone else go and write about how the Banks and cooperations are refusing, its how history works and writing works.

And one question:
How Does that make his motives Greed and Profit? Obviously every author NEEDS Profit, or he cant publish his books and such or live. So Obviously he needs profit, but he also writes very well, and since that motive of profit, pretty much ever writer or worker or guy who works has a Motive for Profit.

His argument against the Jewish organizations representing many holocaust survivors is analogous to the argument against those law firms who represent the survivors of those smokers who dies from smoking, or users of vioxx pills.

Most of those Jewish organizations whom he is villifying are made of knowledgable lawyers, and investigators. People who are familiar with international law, and the inerworkings of those european banks which obtained the loot stolen from murdered and surviving Jews. Off course, both his parents remained alive. So why should he be sensitive to others who did not get out the concentration camps alive.

No way on earth those surviving Jews, or the families of the one who dies, by themselves could not have been able to discover where the loot went. Or undergo the enormous undertaking to bring the perptrators to justice.

In regards to "how much is too much". Mister, I lived in Israel for more then 2 decades. Myself, Teshah along with millions of Israelis, have lived next door to those holocaust survivors, with numbers still tattod on their forearms. We listen to their horror stories, helplessly watching their brothers, sisters, husbands, wives, 8 & 9 year old children either shot, or led to the gas chambers. How much GD value you, and your hero Finkelstein put on sufferings, and the lost of your loved ones. ALL FOR NO FREAKING REASON, OTHER THEN YOUR RELIGIOUS. We were there, we saw it. We heard it. You did not. So please spare me the academic arguments of what is right or what is wrong.

This Frinkenstein of yours, talks about expoliting the german government or the swiss banks for more money. Or that poor little polish farmer, whom few years earliers during the WWII, himself MAY have turned in his jewish neighbors to the Nazi's for execution, so he can loot their homes. Don't you think that, had these sophisticated institutions and the Polish government, feel the same way this guy feels, they would publically object to Jews demand, and rebuke them as he is doing. After all THEY are the ones who affected by this. not HIM.

The truth of the matter is, before WWII, Jewish communities throughout Europe were highly prosperous. Their properties, their homes, their money, their diginity, and their LIVES were taken away from them by briutal force. It takes years and years to find out, where all the loot had gone to, and who has benefitted from it. You can not blame the Jews for doing two things.
a. recover their looted properties, and obtain compensations for their sufferings.
b. Send a clear message that, persecuting minorities - Jews in particular is costly to the perpetartors of these crimes.

Tashah · Sep 14, 2005

The Truth-Bringer said:
if you had read clearly my post, Because Like I said Earlier , I already admited that apparently the evidence supports that David Irving is a Bad Historian, but it is Evil to make him suffer because of it, and there are soooo many other bad historians out there that the press just loves and that gain such prestige in the public. And Like I said , just because they were wrongly sourced and bad arguments , doesnt make the Conclusion False.

The mountains of explicit evidence presented at the trial conclusively proved that David Irving is much more than a mere 'bad historian'. He is an historical revisionist, Holocaust denier, Hitler apologist, antisemite, racist, and neo-nazi. He continues to put forth invective and propoganda on his website, which is an online subsidiary of his Focal Point publishing house. David Irving richly deserves whatever personal, public, and financial ills that befall him.

I will also take this opportunity to remind you that you yourself placed David Irving in this thread. If you should still harbor an unfounded admiration for his historical works, I strongly urge you to read these two books and see for yourself how Irving has decieved...

• History on Trial: My Day in Court with David Irving - Deborah Lipstadt
• Lying About Hitler: History, Holocaust, and The David Irving Trial - Richard J. Evans

PS. A verbatim record of the trial from official stenographic notes is available from: Harry Counsel and Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4.

The Truth-Bringer · Sep 14, 2005

righton said:
Anybody who is telling the truth from his heart can not, and will not fall in what you term "word trap". Period.

His argument against the Jewish organizations representing many holocaust survivors is analogous to the argument against those law firms who represent the survivors of those smokers who dies from smoking, or users of vioxx pills.

Most of those Jewish organizations whom he is villifying are made of knowledgable lawyers, and investigators. People who are familiar with international law, and the inerworkings of those european banks which obtained the loot stolen from murdered and surviving Jews. Off course, both his parents remained alive. So why should he be sensitive to others who did not get out the concentration camps alive.

No way on earth those surviving Jews, or the families of the one who dies, by themselves could not have been able to discover where the loot went. Or undergo the enormous undertaking to bring the perptrators to justice.

In regards to "how much is too much". Mister, I lived in Israel for more then 2 decades. Myself, Teshah along with millions of Israelis, have lived next door to those holocaust survivors, with numbers still tattod on their forearms. We listen to their horror stories, helplessly watching their brothers, sisters, husbands, wives, 8 & 9 year old children either shot, or led to the gas chambers. How much GD value you, and your hero Finkelstein put on sufferings, and the lost of your loved ones. ALL FOR NO FREAKING REASON, OTHER THEN YOUR RELIGIOUS. We were there, we saw it. We heard it. You did not. So please spare me the academic arguments of what is right or what is wrong.

This Frinkenstein of yours, talks about expoliting the german government or the swiss banks for more money. Or that poor little polish farmer, whom few years earliers during the WWII, himself MAY have turned in his jewish neighbors to the Nazi's for execution, so he can loot their homes. Don't you think that, had these sophisticated institutions and the Polish government, feel the same way this guy feels, they would publically object to Jews demand, and rebuke them as he is doing. After all THEY are the ones who affected by this. not HIM.

The truth of the matter is, before WWII, Jewish communities throughout Europe were highly prosperous. Their properties, their homes, their money, their diginity, and their LIVES were taken away from them by briutal force. It takes years and years to find out, where all the loot had gone to, and who has benefitted from it. You can not blame the Jews for doing two things.
a. recover their looted properties, and obtain compensations for their sufferings.
b. Send a clear message that, persecuting minorities - Jews in particular is costly to the perpetartors of these crimes.

people telling the truth from there hearts can be lured into word traps, period. Its simple psychology which is foolish to deny.

And 2, I obviously personally am in full support for the ACTUAL JEWISH SURVIVORS TO GET WHATEVER LOOT that was stolen from them or money theived, But the Organizations are said to make up people who died , just to get the money. Under NO Circumstances is that just or good.

The Emotional Arguments are neccasary, but as logicians and philosophers know, emotions have a place, but the academic community is for describing the events without emotions interfearing, and besides, Jews arent the only ones who suffered on such a scale. The Academic community is supposed to do the emotionless work such as that, its the cold recording of the events, not weeping about it, thats for the poets and writers and television. The Rememberance is needed but so is a Logical analysis of the situation, and the numbers. The academic part finkelstein is talking about is basically:
Based on His Calculations (Which might be wrong, if you prove that to me then ill believe you), That Jewish Relief organizations are asking for money for Jewish People that supposedly are still alive and need the aid, which if they do , by all rights they deserve it! But the problem is: Most of those so called "survivors" died in the holocaust, and while the Organizations preach a outragous 6,000,000 Dead in the holocaust, they are listing a amount of survivors that mean the number dead would be 4,000,000 or so. Quiet a contradiction.

To Clear it up, as i said, I am all for the giving of money to actual survivors, but they must be actual survivors or the families, not just fakers who are blabbering tales to get money, and it is injust to see Real Holocaust survivors still being denied by the suspicious Switz and German banks , because the German and Swiss banks are so suspicious because of those Jewish Organizations. And the Jewish organizations often DONT EVEN HELP THOSE POOR PEOPLE. They just hog up the money to build things and education, without first giving it to those people who deserve it. So see, your own "representives' are hurting those survivors.
___________________________________________________

And Also as a sidenote i didnt notice earlier, about your part about the Horror stories told, They are NOT Unique. The Same thing happened all across the world. Such as in Russia for example (My Area of expertise), In Collectivization you were starved to death simply because you were a peasent and such. And in America you were treated badly and often just killed if you were a Indian. Same with blacks in AfrIca under European Imperialism. The Hitler case was based on religion, and i admit it was evil, but there was more than 1 geonicde of innocent people in history, and their horror tales are just as bad. If you preached that stuff to a Russian Survivor or a Chinese Escapee or a North Korean Escapee and etc., They would either 1.) Sympathize with you, or 2.) Yell at you for stating your case so strongly like its the only case.

The Truth-Bringer · Sep 14, 2005

Tashah said:
The mountains of explicit evidence presented at the trial conclusively proved that David Irving is much more than a mere 'bad historian'. He is an historical revisionist, Holocaust denier, Hitler apologist, antisemite, racist, and neo-nazi. He continues to put forth invective and propoganda on his website, which is an online subsidiary of his Focal Point publishing house. David Irving richly deserves whatever personal, public, and financial ills that befall him.

I will also take this opportunity to remind you that you yourself placed David Irving in this thread. If you should still harbor an unfounded admiration for his historical works, I strongly urge you to read these two books and see for yourself how Irving has decieved...

• History on Trial: My Day in Court with David Irving - Deborah Lipstadt
• Lying About Hitler: History, Holocaust, and The David Irving Trial - Richard J. Evans

PS. A verbatim record of the trial from official stenographic notes is available from: Harry Counsel and Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4.

Yes i agree there now...He is a "historical revisionist, Holocaust denier, Hitler apologist, antisemite, racist, and neo-nazi" Mostly. I'm not sure about Neo-Nazi, but that doesnt mean im saying hes not one. The rest i agree with you about him.

And No He does not deserve it. Thats the type of cruel justice our modern world gives. He is now just publishing points about how people are bothering him, and his new books, not really "propoganda", unless you mean he has his books as free downloads.

And Yes I will look into those 2 books, hopefully if i find the time.

The Truth-Bringer · Sep 14, 2005

Also Just as a Point to avoid bickering and putting up straw mans, Lets examine Finkelsteins conclusion in his Book that talks about compensation for Jews:

"it remaines to consider the impact of the holocaust in the united states. In doing so, I also want to engage Peter Novick's Own remarks on the situation.

Apart from Holocaust Memorials, fully seventeen states mandate or recommend Holocaust programs in their schools, and many colleges and universities have endowed chairs in holocaust studies. Hardly a week passes without a major holocaust related story in the new tork times. The number of scholarly studies devoted to Nazi Final Solution is conservatively estimated at over 10,000. Consider the comparison scholarship on the hecatomb in the congo. Between 1891 and 1911, some 10,000,000 Africans perished in the course of Europes exploition of the congolese ivory and rubber resource. Yet. the first and only scholarly volume in english directly devoted to the topic was published two years ago (FootNote: Adam Hochschld, King Leopold's Ghost (Boston:1998).

Given the vast number of institutions and professionals dedicated to preserving its memory, the holocaust is by now firmly entrenched in american life. Novick expresses misgivings however, wether this is a good thing. In the first place, he cites numberous instances of its sheer vulgarization. Indeed one is hard pressed to name a single political cause, wether pro life or pro choice, animal rights or states rights, that hasnt conscripted the holocaust. Decrying the Tawdry purposes to which the holocaust is put, Elie Wiesel declared, "I swear to avoid...Vulgar Spectacles."(Footnote: Wiesel, Against Silence, v. iii, 190; cf, v. ii, 82, v., iii, 242 and Wiesel, And the Sea, 18). Yet Novick reports that the "most imagniative and sutble holocaust photo op came in 1996 when Hillary Clinton, under heavy fire for various alleged misdeeds, appeared in the gallery of the House during her husbands state of the union address, flanked by their daughter chelsea, and Elie Wiesel." For Hillary Clinton, Kosovo refugees put to flight by serbia during the nato bombing recalled Holocaust Scenes in Schindlers list. "People who learn history from spielberg movies" A Serbian dissident tartly rejoined. "Should not tell us how to live our lives".

The "Pretense ithat the holocaust is an american memory" Novick further Argues. Is a moral evasion. it "Leads to the shirking of those responsiblities that do belong to americans as they confront their past, present, and future." He makes a important point. It is much easier to deplore the crimes of others than to look at ourselves. It is also true however that were the willt there we could learn much about ourselves from Nazi Experience. Manifest Destiny anticipated nearly all the idealogical and programmic elemnts of Hitler's Lebensraum policy. In fact, hitler modeled his conquest of the east on the american conquest of the west. During the first half of this century, a majority of american states enacted sterilization laws and tens of thousands of americans were involuntarily sterilized. The nazis expllicty invoked this US precedent when they encated their own sterilization laws. The notorious 1935 Nuremburg laws stripped jews of the franches and forbade miscegenation between jews and non jews. Blacks in the american south suffered the same legal disablities and were the object of much greater and spontaneous and sanctioned popular violence than jews in prewar germany."

Now, come and tell me, which parts of those are "wrong"?? I doubt you can find any reasoned opinion to tell me which parts, but if you do it will be accepted.

The Truth-Bringer · Sep 14, 2005

And also another point, if we bother Historians who falsify sources and are racist and deniers like Irving, Why DONT WE HUNT THE OTHERS TOO. The Stalin-Deniers, Stalin Apologists, Neo-Stalinists, or people who did around the same as Irving? Like Getty and others. But No, we were just and forgave Getty! Which is good, but im just saying its sortof hypocritic.

Lucidthots · Sep 16, 2005

How do bankers control the world?

How did the International Bankers overthrow the American Government and turn the American people into the subjects of a foreign Bank?

YOU NEED THIS INFORMATION!

Watch this important video, it is free!

DOWNLOAD:

PART 2 70MB
PART 1 89MB

Download Part 1 FIRST!

When you are done watching this documentary, post your opinion here lettining others know what you got out of it.

http://www.archive.org/details/MoneyMasters

Inuyasha · Sep 16, 2005

Lucidthots said:
How do bankers control the world?

How did the International Bankers overthrow the American Government and turn the American people into the subjects of a foreign Bank?

YOU NEED THIS INFORMATION!

Watch this important video, it is free!

DOWNLOAD:

PART 2 70MB
PART 1 89MB

Download Part 1 FIRST!

When you are done watching this documentary, post your opinion here lettining others know what you got out of it.

http://www.archive.org/details/MoneyMasters

I see you found you way over here. Shhhhh

The Truth-Bringer · Sep 16, 2005

Wha?:doh :doh

Inuyasha · Sep 16, 2005

The Truth-Bringer said:
Wha?:doh :doh

I know Luci from another forum. I am well traveled.:lol: or :3oops: I'm not sure.

The Truth-Bringer · Sep 16, 2005

Ah ok lol:roll: :2wave: :roll:

Aryan Imperium · Sep 18, 2005

Fair enough. Do you hate jews?

They are not exactly on my jul tide list if that is what you are asking.

The aspect of the murder of a few million people at the hands of the Nazi regime.[/QUOTE]

Oh you mean the war time jewish hoax of the holocaust?

teacher · Sep 18, 2005

Aryan Imperium said:
Fair enough. Do you hate jews?

They are not exactly on my jul tide list if that is what you are asking.

The aspect of the murder of a few million people at the hands of the Nazi regime.

Oh you mean the war time jewish hoax of the holocaust?[/QUOTE]

Ayran Imperium. Is that your name or where clan members buy their hoods?

Aryan Imperium · Sep 18, 2005

I don't see anybody stopping you and or someone else to engage with fundemmental polamic of crime against humanity based on peoples race, religion, or color of skin. It is off limit to those Nazi's and their sypathizers who had never accepted responsibilities to Nazi Germany's haious crimes. Those who still think Hitler was hero to them.

So only those who accord with your political views are entitled to express them?That sounds quite "fascist" to me!

Had a group from your race, or religion had faced the same horror, as Jews and Gypcies had during the WWII, you would also would be as vocal as they are.

The jews made them themselves an enemy of the state by declaring war on Germany in 1933 when Germany elected a National Socialist government.Most peoples face "horror" at some point in their history but only the jew has the gall to say that their "suffering" is worth more than other peoples` and to make a money spinning industry out of it.

Because those systematic exterminations against Jews and other ethnic groups by Nazi Germany were so horrifying with their crulety, and ferocity. After that, entire world community. Particularly that of post war Germany, have decided to take tangible abnd forceful steps to never allow it to occure again.

What "systematic" exterminations?
I don't know what to you mean by that. Care to elaborate?

Or, do you mean to suggest that, those Jews, whom post-war Germany itself had acknowledged the atrocities against them, and accepted responsibilities for them, are not entitled to finacial compensation for the Nazi's loot and other confiscation of Jews properties.[/QUOTE]

I am talking about the holocaust INDUSTRY which provides a nice little earner for any jew to write a few hundred pages of drivel about their "suffering" or for those jewish "academics" who write books attempting to explore,document or "prove" the historicity of the holocaust when they know that no-one will be allowed to publish a book questioning the veracity of their "research".
The book shops are full of shelves devoted to the "holocaust".A nice little earner,oi vey!

Aryan Imperium · Sep 18, 2005

teacher said:
Oh you mean the war time jewish hoax of the holocaust?

Ayran Imperium. Is that your name or where clan members buy their hoods?[/QUOTE]

Although I admire the work and aims of the KKK it is an entirely American organisation and nominally xtian.Therefore I would not be welcome within their ranks.
Care to add something worthwhile to the debate or are you limited to juvenile cyber jokes?

Gandhi>Bush · Sep 18, 2005

Aryan Imperium said:
Fair enough. Do you hate jews?

They are not exactly on my jul tide list if that is what you are asking.

What is jul tide? Is being of Jewish decent, in your eyes, a stigma?

The aspect of the murder of a few million people at the hands of the Nazi regime.

Oh you mean the war time jewish hoax of the holocaust?

The Nazis never murdered any Jews. Can you type that out for me?

teacher · Sep 18, 2005

Aryan Imperium said:
Ayran Imperium. Is that your name or where clan members buy their hoods?

Although I admire the work and aims of the KKK it is an entirely American organisation and nominally xtian.Therefore I would not be welcome within their ranks.
Care to add something worthwhile to the debate or are you limited to juvenile cyber jokes?[/QUOTE]

I have. But when I do you don't reply. Even compared to me, you are the joke. And that is saying something. Are you with me Debate Politic members?

Actually Aryan, I split my time between jokes and worthwhile debate. You're not worthwhile.

Aryan Imperium · Sep 18, 2005

What is jul tide? Is being of Jewish decent, in your eyes, a stigma?

That is Norse for "Yule". I personally am thankful that I am not one.

The Nazis never murdered any Jews. Can you type that out for me?[/QUOTE]

The odd eliminated jew doth not make a "holocaust".

Aryan Imperium · Sep 18, 2005

teacher said:
Although I admire the work and aims of the KKK it is an entirely American organisation and nominally xtian.Therefore I would not be welcome within their ranks.
Care to add something worthwhile to the debate or are you limited to juvenile cyber jokes?

I have. But when I do you don't reply. Even compared to me, you are the joke. And that is saying something. Are you with me Debate Politic members?

Actually Aryan, I split my time between jokes and worthwhile debate. You're not worthwhile.[/QUOTE]

Listen little boy please refrain from placing your words as a quote from me.Is that deliberate misinformation?
You don`t just tell "jokes" you are a joke.

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