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Bill Clinton's Military Career

Oh get off your high horse. The complaint about Bush is that he served in the TANG instead of volunteering for Viet Nam, if you are going to critisize him then you critisize everyone who volunteer for NG. <----No it wasn't. It was about Bush. Are you a professional liar or do you just play one on the internet. LIAR.

Deal with it. <---What if I say no?

And you don't know jack about. <---Obviously I do. I just don't swallow the GWB load like you do. Tell me, do you carry his picture in your wallet?

Kiss off. <---Awwww, I hurt him wittle feelings.

Yes he was. <---Yeah I know, I said it remember? :roll:

Bull <---No, truth.

Bull<---See above.

Going in, and only the best of the best got in. Straw man. <---Bullshit, his daddy pulled some favors. There was a year and a half waiting list and he was put at the head of it even though he had the lowest possible entry score you could have. He, like Clinton, used his family connections to avoid service in Vietnam and to avoid much of his service state side. The truth isn't near as tasty as Bush's man juice is it?

His record was within the requirements of his service. <---No, it was unsatisfactory. His absences were documented by his commanders. He just wasn't disciplined. Why? Because of his daddy.

And no one proved otherwise and he fulfilled his duty. <---You might talk to his fellow airman and commanders who didn't know where the **** his *** was on training days. Hmmmm.....

You are just a whiner. <---I'd like to see a vote on this one. Personally I believe that your delusional belief in GWB's outstanding military record and your juvenile defense thereof makes you out to be more of a whiner.

He fulfilled his duty as required.<---Not according to his attendance records. Doh...YOU GOT OWNED BIATCH! :lol:

If you can't prove otherwise, you don't have a leg to stand on. But the fact is his record shows he had all the points he needed. <---The records also show he didn't attend the appropriate amount of training, and his fellow airman can't seem to recall training at all for the majority of his time in the units to which he was assigned. Hmmm....something smells fish...something doesn't pass the smell test...hmmmm.....

What's funny is how the Bush haters had to resort to phony memo's to try and prove anything. <---I didn't resort to a phony memo, nobody here did that I can recall. Hmmm....are you sweating as you type this?

SO WHAT!!!!!!!!

He was not full time active duty get your facts straight. <---Nor was he attending his mandatory training with the 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group in Montgomery. His supervisors there confirmed this. Hmmmm.....

Bottom line he was not. <----Uh, yes he was. OWNED YOU!!!!!

Your service has nothing to do with what you know about Bush. <---Yes it does and you're fat!

They weren't flying his plane any more, they were rotating it out as active duty pilots were being transfered to reserve along with thier F4's, it made no sense to but a reserve pilot back through trained when they had an over abundance of pilots. <---Lol...that is rich. So any other excuses as to why Bush wasn't flying? I mean other than the fact that he transfered to a non-flying unit and then never attended training.

You didn't know that did you. <---What difference would that make, he didn't show up to begin with. The more you type the more you paint this guy as a bigger ***** than he actually was. "My Georgie was brave...the only weason he didn't fwy his awopwane was cuz they were meanie heads and wouldn't wet him cause he was in da weserves." Whatever. Keep clawing.


You don't volunteer for heart disease, you don't volunteer for cancer. <----Apparently you didn't see the fact that I bolded the odds for motor vehicle accident and air travel accident. Pay attention here Stinger.

I have provide an authoritative source for exactly how dangerous the Delta Dagger was YOU are not an authority in the matter YOUR opinion means ZIP. <---Yeah, you pointed out the Delta Dagger was a dangerous plane to fly. Goodie for you Stinger. Here is your cookie. Now let's get back to the argument at hand. Your asinine assertion that Bush was somehow a brave fighter pilot who served satisfactorily in the TXANG...lol...what a hoot!

They didn't need him and didn't have a plane for him to fly. <---He voluntarily transfered to the 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group which had no planes. Then he never showed up for training. Hmmm.....he was such a brave pilot wasn't he!

We all know that, there is no need for you to keep repeating it, and it is a moot point. HE WAS NOT A FULL TIME MILITARY. And it you knew anything about the military at the time you would know that there was an abundance of Viet Nam active duty pilots being rotated to reserve status to end our their military duty and the reserve pilots were not need nor were they going to be trained to fly F4's it made no sense to do so. <---I know plenty about the military at that time. Wanna have a true debate about the military during the Vietnam war? I'm game. Me vs. you smart guy? Quit dancing around the fact that Bush didn't show up for his training in Alabama and he didn't show up for training initially when he returned to Texas. Regardless of what the military was doing at the time he had an obligation to train. He did not fulfill that obligation.

Because you keep denigrating their service, Bush was no different from any of them, when you insult him you insult them. <---STRAWWWWW MAN KING!!!!!! Sorry buddy boy, that don't fly. Bush was very much different than national guard pilots who did their duty and showed up when required. When I insult him, I insult him. You suck at this, no wonder you are in the top five for Asshat of the Year. When in doubt, lie about the other poster!


Your post. <---Oh good one!!!!! You sooooo got me!


Yes. <---No, it was an academic achievement. Prove otherwise.

He didn't succeed did he. <---He didn't fail either. He chose to return to Yale to complete his education. He became a Professor of Law! Weak sauce, but par for the course here.

Why? And provide a cite. <---Because he was no longer in danger of being drafted and wanted to finish his education in the States. Oxford was a convenience for him. You need to provide a source that actually backs you up. Let me save you the time though, there isn't one. I don't have to prove he didn't flunk out, you have to prove he did.

He qualified through his political connections and then couldn't finish. <---Bullshit partisan hackery. Totally baseless and you know it. You have absolutely no proof of this. The most common explanation is simply that Clinton returned to the states because he was no longer in danger of being drafted. It's very distasteful but it's the truth.

Since Kerry and Gore did worse what do you call them? Do you have an MBA from Yale? <---Kerry and Gore demonstrate a much higher level of intellectual capability than Bush ever has. So I call them pretty smart. And what difference does it make as to whether I have an MBA or not? My GPA for my college studies were much higher than Bush's. But what does that have to do with anything?


Kerry lost every debate just as Gore did. <---Hardly. That is just your opinion.

The whole industry in TX and LA collapse during that period, I was there. <---Right.


It's not subjective at all, he was a highly respected govenor on both sides of the isle. <---No he wasn't. He was criticized quite frequently for his double speak regarding education and property tax issues. Just to name a couple. Just a taste of some of the criticisms he recieved.
OH kiss off, just because you arguments are without merit don't stoop to the invective. <---Not invective, just an intelligent observation on my part.


In all our discussions I am the only one who provides evidence and cites to back up what I say, so speak for yourself. <---Bullshit, you provided a link to the Delta Dagger. Big ****ing deal. You logic in how you use your citations and your flawed reasoning in your defense of GWB's military record nullify any credibility you think your sources attribute to you.

Here go educate yourself and try chilling out a little before you respond.

Bush Served Honorably - GW Bush Not AWOL - TANG Evaluations of Lt. Bush
<---Yay, nothing like citing the very documents that have been called into question for their content, given the fact that Bush was frequently absent from training? Hmmmm.......

:rofl :rofl :rofl

You wonder why nobody outside the Gang of Five takes you seriously?

Snopes article debunking the OP.
Bill Clinton from Groilers "The American Presidency."
More about Bill.
Yet more about Bill...still no mention of his flunking out of Oxford nor anything about him getting his Rhodes scholarship from a political appointment. Hahahah.
Here is some more about the man. Mysteriously absent is any mention of his "flunking" out of Oxford.
And here is the Wiki on Billy Boy. I looked but couldn't find any mention of him flunking or getting his Rhodes scholarship from any political appointment.
Background on GWB's military career. From Straight Dope.
A little more about Georges military record.
And a FeeRepublic Article just to balance it out.
 
:rofl :rofl :rofl

You wonder why nobody outside the Gang of Five takes you seriously?

What a pitiful response
<---You might talk to his fellow airman and commanders who didn't know where the **** his *** was on training days. Hmmmm.....


"Former Guardsman: Bush served with me in AlabamaBy the Associated Press
A retired Alabama Air National Guard officer said Friday that he remembers George Bush showing up for duty in Alabama in 1972, reading safety magazines and flight manuals in an office as he performed his weekend obligations.


"I saw him each drill period," retired Lt. Col. John "Bill" Calhoun said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press from Daytona Beach, Fla., where he is preparing to watch this weekend's big NASCAR race.
"He was very aggressive about doing his duty there. He never complained about it. ... He was very dedicated to what he was doing in the Guard. He showed up on time and he left at the end of the day.""



USATODAY.com - Former Guardsman: Bush served with me in Alabama



Just as with the Sandy Berger thing you are factually wrong.


still no mention of his flunking out of Oxford nor anything about him getting his Rhodes scholarship from a political appointment. Hahahah.

I asked you why he did not finish, I didn't say he flunked out. Stop posting lies.

http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/EOP/OP/html/Hope.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton#Early_life_and_educationAnd you're using old outdated, refuted cites. When his records were fully released here is what they said

"
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]What the Records Show[/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The records show that National Guard officials credited Bush with enough points to meet minimum requirements for the 12-month period ending May 26, 1973, the period of the original alleged "gap" in his records. An Air Force "Reserve Personnel Record Card" shows Bush received a total of 9 points for active duty training, 31 points for inactive duty training, and 15 points awarded for his membership in the reserves. The points total 56, exceeding the 50-point requirement for satisfactory service during the period, though barely.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]
[/FONT]
Other documents include one-page Air Force Reserve summaries of points earned in the 12-month period ending in May 1973, and the subsequent period running through Bush's last credited service in July 1973. (See "supporting documents").


Also released were copies of microfilm payroll records summarizing the days for which Bush was paid in 1972 and 1973. Though blurry and hard to read, they reflect payments for 82 days of services in 1972 and 1973.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Also released was a memo the White House requested from Retired Lieutenant Colonel Albert. C. Lloyd Jr., a former personnel director for the Texas Air Guard during the time of Bush's service. Lloyd said of the payroll and personnel records, "This clearly shows that 1LT George W. Bush has satisfactory years for both 72-73 and 73-74 which proves that he completed his military obligation in a satisfactory manner.""[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]http://www.factcheck.org/article140.html[/FONT]


You should try getting off your high horse and make sure you are using accurate and reliable sources not hate-bush websites and old unsubstantiated information.



Now substantiate your claim about Clinton leaving Oxford with proof.
 
What a pitiful response
Yet factually correct.
"Former Guardsman: Bush served with me in AlabamaBy the Associated Press
A retired Alabama Air National Guard officer said Friday that he remembers George Bush showing up for duty in Alabama in 1972, reading safety magazines and flight manuals in an office as he performed his weekend obligations.


"I saw him each drill period," retired Lt. Col. John "Bill" Calhoun said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press from Daytona Beach, Fla., where he is preparing to watch this weekend's big NASCAR race.
"He was very aggressive about doing his duty there. He never complained about it. ... He was very dedicated to what he was doing in the Guard. He showed up on time and he left at the end of the day.""



USATODAY.com - Former Guardsman: Bush served with me in Alabama
Lol....nice article Stinger. You found one guy who claims Bush was there, but not another single soul! The base commander and a dozen or so others in his unit say they never saw him even one time...ALL FROM YOUR ARTICLE! HAHAHAHA! Your article also said that records there can't verify Georges service. Calhoun talked about Bush reading safety manuals for the planes he was flying...one problem with that...HE WAS IN A NON FLIGHT UNIT AND HE WASN'T FLYING! LOL oh man this is good!
From the article said:
Pay and medical records released by the White House this week failed to quash allegations that Bush shirked his Guard responsibilities. (Related story: Bush's driving records disclosed)

The 187th's former commander, retired Brig. Gen. William Turnipseed, has said he doesn't remember Bush ever turning up on base, and more than a dozen members of the 800-person unit, including its commander, told The Associated Press this week they have no recollection of Bush. Critics have made much of the fact that the White House has failed to produce anyone who could remember seeing Bush there.




Just as with the Sandy Berger thing you are factually wrong.
Show me one thing I was factually wrong about in the Sandy Berger article. I dare you. You got owned in that thread and you know that. Why are too chicken to answer my True Debate challenge? Scared you can't cut it without all your baseless partisan rhetoric crap? Hey if I am a lying cheater everyone will be able to examine my case and vote against me, call me down, and you will win without question. I'm willing to take that chance. Why aren't you? You say you don't take this that seriously but you are on here more than I am. So you have the time, you just know what will happen don't you...lol....yeah you know exactly what will happen.



I asked you why he did not finish, I didn't say he flunked out. Stop posting lies.
You said he couldn't finish it, said he didn't succeed, and asked me to post proof that he didn't flunk. You do that math smart guy. You are the only liar in this thread.

http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/EOP/OP/html/Hope.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton#Early_life_and_educationAnd you're using old outdated, refuted cites. When his records were fully released here is what they said

"
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]What the Records Show[/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The records show that National Guard officials credited Bush with enough points to meet minimum requirements for the 12-month period ending May 26, 1973, the period of the original alleged "gap" in his records. An Air Force "Reserve Personnel Record Card" shows Bush received a total of 9 points for active duty training, 31 points for inactive duty training, and 15 points awarded for his membership in the reserves. The points total 56, exceeding the 50-point requirement for satisfactory service during the period, though barely.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]
[/FONT]
Other documents include one-page Air Force Reserve summaries of points earned in the 12-month period ending in May 1973, and the subsequent period running through Bush's last credited service in July 1973. (See "supporting documents").


Also released were copies of microfilm payroll records summarizing the days for which Bush was paid in 1972 and 1973. Though blurry and hard to read, they reflect payments for 82 days of services in 1972 and 1973.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Also released was a memo the White House requested from Retired Lieutenant Colonel Albert. C. Lloyd Jr., a former personnel director for the Texas Air Guard during the time of Bush's service. Lloyd said of the payroll and personnel records, "This clearly shows that 1LT George W. Bush has satisfactory years for both 72-73 and 73-74 which proves that he completed his military obligation in a satisfactory manner.""[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]http://www.factcheck.org/article140.html[/FONT]


You should try getting off your high horse and make sure you are using accurate and reliable sources not hate-bush websites and old unsubstantiated information.

Nope it's not unsubstantiated, it's not outdated. The very records you have posted are the ones that have had their legitimacy challenged. Based upon Bush's failure to show for duty or fly his pay is considered fraudulent. They paid him for time he didn't attend training. That is the problem. You have one witness vs. his unit commander and a dozen or more unit members who never saw Bush at training even one time. You lose, you are owned.

Now substantiate your claim about Clinton leaving Oxford with proof.

I already did Einstein or can't you click on a link? I have posted three or four links, none of which call in to question Clinton's performance at Oxford. Show me one report you can find that shows Clinton didn't leave voluntarily. SHOW ME ONE YOU BIG FAT JEALOUS GOTH CHICK!

:rofl

You are losing this sooooo bad.
 
SHOW ME ONE YOU BIG FAT JEALOUS GOTH CHICK!

Bwahahahaaaaaa! :2rofll:

I can see it! He's only pretending to be a conservative grandfather.

I think you've stumbled upon his dirty little secret:
he's actually Moshzilla!!!
Everybody run! Run for your lives!!!!

moshzilla.jpg



:lamo
 
Yet factually correct.

Lol....nice article Stinger. You found one guy who claims Bush was there, but not another single soul! The base commander and a dozen or so others in his unit say they never saw him even one time...ALL FROM YOUR ARTICLE!

As I said you really need to get up to speed

[FONT=Courier, Times New Roman]Bush Guard Commander Recants AWOL Charge[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier, Times New Roman] The ex-military man who first launched charges during the 2000 presidential campaign that President Bush had gone AWOL from the National Guard has recanted his story. [/FONT]
[FONT=Courier, Times New Roman]...... on Wednesday Gen. Turnipseed reversed course, telling NBC News: "I don't know if [Bush] showed up, I don't know if he didn't. I don't remember how often I was even at the base."

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/2/6/113036.shtml
[/FONT]
HAHAHAHA! Your article also said that records there can't verify Georges service.

That's why I cite the article that does.
Calhoun talked about Bush reading safety manuals for the planes he was flying...one problem with that...HE WAS IN A NON FLIGHT UNIT AND HE WASN'T FLYING! LOL oh man this is good!

Doesn't prevent him from reading what was laying around does it. Your desperate is glaring.



Show me one thing I was factually wrong about in the Sandy Berger article.

That what he stole were JUST copies and that he is not required to take a polygraph test. You do know there are congressional hearings being called in the next few weeks to ask why he hasn't fulfilled his obligation to do so.


You said he couldn't finish it, said he didn't succeed

That's right, he left with no explaination ever given before he finish, he failed to succeed at graduating.


Nope it's not unsubstantiated, it's not outdated.


Yeah they are and until you can refute what I posted my statement stands.

The very records you have posted are the ones that have had their legitimacy challenged.

No they aren't. It's one of the reasons 60 minutes had to stoop to forged documents, his service record proven he fulfilled his duty.


I already did Einstein or can't you click on a link? I have posted three or four links, none of which call in to question Clinton's performance at Oxford.

Why didn't he graduate?

Show me one report you can find that shows Clinton didn't leave voluntarily.

Show me where I said he didn't leave voluntarily?

SHOW ME ONE YOU BIG FAT JEALOUS GOTH CHICK!


Post being reported. Go read the rules here fellow, personal attacks are not allow, act like an adult and get your emotions under control.


When you have something official with a cite that disproves the confrimed service record I have posted let me know.
 
"I saw him each drill period," retired Lt. Col. John "Bill" Calhoun said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press from Daytona Beach, Fla., where he is preparing to watch this weekend's big NASCAR race.
"He was very aggressive about doing his duty there. He never complained about it. ... He was very dedicated to what he was doing in the Guard. He showed up on time and he left at the end of the day.""

USATODAY.com - Former Guardsman: Bush served with me in Alabama


There are still no credible witnesses to confirm Bush's NG duty in Alabama. Calhoun has been discredited:

"Only one person has vivid recollections of serving with Bush at Dannelly field. John B. "Bill" Calhoun, 69 -- whose name was provided by a Republican ally of Bush's -- said he saw Bush sign in at the 187th eight to 10 times for about eight hours each from May to October 1972.

But Calhoun remembers seeing Bush at Dannelly at times in mid-1972 when the White House acknowledges Bush was not pulling Guard duty in Alabama yet; his first drills were in October, according to the White House. White House press secretary Scott McClellan on Friday was at a loss to reconcile the discrepancy."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A42735-2004Feb14?language=printer
 
There are still no credible witnesses to confirm Bush's NG duty in Alabama. Calhoun has been discredited:

He's backed by the service record and I don't expect these guys to know the exact dates 30 years later.

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The White House released a military dental examination record for President Bush, claiming the document proves the president was at the base where he was to carry out his service in the Air National Guard.
Bush's dental record -- released Wednesday night -- says Bush received an exam at the Dannelly Air National Guard Base in Alabama on January 6, 1973.
"As has previously been documented and reported, the president was performing equivalent duty with the 187th Tactical Recon Group in a non-flying status," the White House said in a statement.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/02/12/elec04.prez.bush.military/



People, get a grip, this attempt to smear his service record was totally debunk years ago and even the MSM dropped it. The fact is he served honorable in a very dangerous job protecting the our skies in a very dangerous plane.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Jeff, simmer down a bit.
 
Post being reported. Go read the rules here fellow, personal attacks are not allow, act like an adult and get your emotions under control. <---It was a play on New Coup For You's goth chick commentary...did that hurt your little feelings too?

And I'm going to report you for insulting the intelligence of this entire forum with you inane ramblings. There! FACE!

"Hello my name is Stinger and when I was a wee lad I killed my sense of humor and carried that dark secret with me all these years...."

dude...I have so seriously owned you in this thread...I should be allowed to rename you.....
 
He's backed by the service record and I don't expect these guys to know the exact dates 30 years later.

No, there is no service record of duty in Alabama. All he has is a record of a dental exam, and that doesn't prove anything about his actual duty. It only proves he was in the vicinity. We know he was in Alabama, because campaign staffers remember him vividly. If a witness doesn't know the exact date or even the approximate one, he isn't a witness at all.
 
And I'm going to report you for insulting the intelligence of this entire forum with you inane ramblings. There! FACE!



dude...I have so seriously owned you in this thread...I should be allowed to rename you.....

Congrats, you just made the ignore list
 
No, there is no service record of duty in Alabama. All he has is a record of a dental exam, and that doesn't prove anything about his actual duty. It only proves he was in the vicinity. We know he was in Alabama, because campaign staffers remember him vividly. If a witness doesn't know the exact date or even the approximate one, he isn't a witness at all.

This is what I am talking about. The records that have been produced were questionable because nobody remembered him attending training. How could he be getting paid for not attending? Now we have ONE guardsman who says he used to sit in the office with Bush. What? This is it?

For all, I am not disputing that Bush served at all. I am asserting that he was a very poor airman because his service was substandard. Further, he used his families political privilege to get a cheese assignment in the "Champaign Unit" in the Texas ANG and deliberately avoided combat duty in Vietnam. And in that he is no better than Clinton who took advantage of the system to avoid combat duty in Vietnam.

It was my ultimate goal to really shed light on the fact that Clinton's lack of service when compared to Bush's substandard service is a non-point when considering who is more qualified to lead this nation. With regard to being President, I don't really see it (military service) being a realistic benefit unless the candidate was a bona fide leader in some capacity. Obviously there would come some understanding of how the military operates, but it might only be from a very limited point of view. I could see a high ranking command assignment being somewhat helpful to a President. But even then it's not the most important factor. The ability to lead this nation to war is not what I would consider a big plus for a President. We have Pentagon officials and commanders to assist the President with that. And ideally we wouldn't need a wartime President. The ability to understand what makes our nation great, to communicate, to recognize and navigate international issues, to understand and improve our domestic situation...to speak in sentences that consist of actual words from the dictionary...those are qualities I would place above six years of questionable national guard military service. Hell I would put that above twenty years of outstanding military service. Being a damn good soldier in no way means you will be even a mediocre President. It just means you were a damn good soldier.

I'm a veteran who was able to finally see through all the bullshit, understand that tumultuous relationship between the Pentagon and the Democrats, and see Clinton for what he was. A damn good President who never served in the military that he helped shape into the most advanced fighting force on this planet. And I'm okay with that.
 
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No, there is no service record of duty in Alabama. All he has is a record of a dental exam, and that doesn't prove anything about his actual duty. It only proves he was in the vicinity. We know he was in Alabama, because campaign staffers remember him vividly. If a witness doesn't know the exact date or even the approximate one, he isn't a witness at all.

No the rest of his military records prove beyond a doubt he served the time required.

"
THE MOVE TO ALABAMA

The records show that Bush kept up his rigorous schedule of flying through the spring of 1972: He was credited for duty on ten days in March of that year, and seven days in April. Then, as Bush began his fifth year of service in the Guard, he appears to have stepped back dramatically. The records indicate that he received no credit in May, June, July, August, and September 1972. In October, he was credited with two days, and in November he was credited with four. There were no days in December, and then six in January 1973. Then there were no days in February and March. The change was the result of Bush's decision to go to Alabama to work on the Senate campaign of Republican Winton Blount. With an obligation to the Guard, Bush asked to perform equivalent service in Alabama. That was not an unusual request, given that members of the Guard, like everyone else, often moved around the country. "It was a common thing," recalls Brigadier General Turnipseed. "If we had had a guy in Houston, he could have made equivalent training with Bush's unit. It was so common that the guy who wrote the letter telling Bush to come didn't even tell me about it."
The president's critics have charged that he did not show up for service — was "AWOL" — in Alabama. Bush says he did serve, and his case is supported by records showing that he was paid and given retirement credit for days of service while he was known to be in Alabama.



The records also show that Bush received a dental examination on January 6, 1973, at Dannelly Air National Guard base, home of the 187th (January 6 was one of the days that pay records show Bush receiving credit for service). And while a number of Guard members at the base say they do not remember seeing Bush among the roughly 900 men who served there during that time, another member, a retired lieutenant named John Calhoun, says he remembers seeing Bush at the base several times.


What seems most likely is that Bush was indeed at Dannelly, but there was not very much for a non-flying pilot to do. Flying fighter jets involves constant practice and training; Bush had to know when he left Texas that he would no longer be able to engage in either one very often, which meant that he would essentially leave flying, at least for some substantial period of time. In addition, the 187th could not accommodate another pilot, at least regularly. "He was not going to fly," says Turnipseed. "We didn't have enough airplanes or sorties to handle our own pilots, so we wouldn't have done it for some guy passing through."


On the other hand, showing up for drills was still meeting one's responsibility to the Guard. And, as 1973 went along, the evidence suggests that Bush stepped up his work to make up for the time he had missed earlier. In April of that year, he received credit for two days; in May, he received credit for 14 days; in June, five days; and in July, 19 days. That was the last service Bush performed in the Guard. Later that year, he asked for and received permission to leave the Guard early so he could attend Harvard Business School. He was given an honorable discharge after serving five years, four months, and five days of his original six-year commitment.


The records indicate that, despite his move to Alabama, Bush met his obligation to the Guard in the 1972-73 year. At that time, Guardsmen were awarded points based on the days they reported for duty each year. They were given 15 points just for being in the Guard, and were then required to accumulate a total of 50 points to satisfy the annual requirement. In his first four years of service, Bush piled up lots of points; he earned 253 points in his first year, 340 in his second, 137 in his third, and 112 in his fourth. For the year from May 1972 to May 1973, records show Bush earned 56 points, a much smaller total, but more than the minimum requirement (his service was measured on a May-to-May basis because he first joined the Guard in that month in 1968).


Bush then racked up another 56 points in June and July of 1973, which met the minimum requirement for the 1973-74 year, which was Bush's last year of service. Together, the record "clearly shows that First Lieutenant George W. Bush has satisfactory years for both '72-'73 and '73-'74, which proves that he completed his military obligation in a satisfactory manner," says retired Lt. Col. Albert Lloyd, a Guard personnel officer who reviewed the records at the request of the White House.


All in all, the documents show that Bush served intensively for four years and then let up in his fifth and sixth years, although he still did enough to meet Guard requirements. The records also suggest that Bush's superiors were not only happy with his performance from 1968 to 1972, but also happy with his decision to go to Alabama. Indeed, Bush's evaluating officer wrote in May 1972 that "Lt. Bush is very active in civic affairs in the community and manifests a deep interest in the operation of our government. He has recently accepted the position as campaign manager for a candidate for United States Senate. He is a good representative of the military and Air National Guard in the business world."


Beyond their apparent hope that Bush would be a good ambassador for the Guard, Bush's superiors might have been happy with his decision to go into politics for another reason: They simply had more people than they needed.


"In 1972, there was an enormous glut of pilots," says Campenni. "The Vietnam War was winding down, and the Air Force was putting pilots in desk jobs. In '72 or '73, if you were a pilot, active or Guard, and you had an obligation and wanted to get out, no problem. In fact, you were helping them solve their problem.""



The facts about the president's service.



The attempts to smear Bush years ago didn't hold up to scrutiny then they don't now.
 
No the rest of his military records prove beyond a doubt he served the time required.

"
THE MOVE TO ALABAMA

The records show that Bush kept up his rigorous schedule of flying through the spring of 1972: He was credited for duty on ten days in March of that year, and seven days in April. Then, as Bush began his fifth year of service in the Guard, he appears to have stepped back dramatically. The records indicate that he received no credit in May, June, July, August, and September 1972. In October, he was credited with two days, and in November he was credited with four. There were no days in December, and then six in January 1973. Then there were no days in February and March. The change was the result of Bush's decision to go to Alabama to work on the Senate campaign of Republican Winton Blount. With an obligation to the Guard, Bush asked to perform equivalent service in Alabama. That was not an unusual request, given that members of the Guard, like everyone else, often moved around the country. "It was a common thing," recalls Brigadier General Turnipseed. "If we had had a guy in Houston, he could have made equivalent training with Bush's unit. It was so common that the guy who wrote the letter telling Bush to come didn't even tell me about it."
The president's critics have charged that he did not show up for service — was "AWOL" — in Alabama. Bush says he did serve, and his case is supported by records showing that he was paid and given retirement credit for days of service while he was known to be in Alabama.



The records also show that Bush received a dental examination on January 6, 1973, at Dannelly Air National Guard base, home of the 187th (January 6 was one of the days that pay records show Bush receiving credit for service). And while a number of Guard members at the base say they do not remember seeing Bush among the roughly 900 men who served there during that time, another member, a retired lieutenant named John Calhoun, says he remembers seeing Bush at the base several times.


What seems most likely is that Bush was indeed at Dannelly, but there was not very much for a non-flying pilot to do. Flying fighter jets involves constant practice and training; Bush had to know when he left Texas that he would no longer be able to engage in either one very often, which meant that he would essentially leave flying, at least for some substantial period of time. In addition, the 187th could not accommodate another pilot, at least regularly. "He was not going to fly," says Turnipseed. "We didn't have enough airplanes or sorties to handle our own pilots, so we wouldn't have done it for some guy passing through."


On the other hand, showing up for drills was still meeting one's responsibility to the Guard. And, as 1973 went along, the evidence suggests that Bush stepped up his work to make up for the time he had missed earlier. In April of that year, he received credit for two days; in May, he received credit for 14 days; in June, five days; and in July, 19 days. That was the last service Bush performed in the Guard. Later that year, he asked for and received permission to leave the Guard early so he could attend Harvard Business School. He was given an honorable discharge after serving five years, four months, and five days of his original six-year commitment.


The records indicate that, despite his move to Alabama, Bush met his obligation to the Guard in the 1972-73 year. At that time, Guardsmen were awarded points based on the days they reported for duty each year. They were given 15 points just for being in the Guard, and were then required to accumulate a total of 50 points to satisfy the annual requirement. In his first four years of service, Bush piled up lots of points; he earned 253 points in his first year, 340 in his second, 137 in his third, and 112 in his fourth. For the year from May 1972 to May 1973, records show Bush earned 56 points, a much smaller total, but more than the minimum requirement (his service was measured on a May-to-May basis because he first joined the Guard in that month in 1968).


Bush then racked up another 56 points in June and July of 1973, which met the minimum requirement for the 1973-74 year, which was Bush's last year of service. Together, the record "clearly shows that First Lieutenant George W. Bush has satisfactory years for both '72-'73 and '73-'74, which proves that he completed his military obligation in a satisfactory manner," says retired Lt. Col. Albert Lloyd, a Guard personnel officer who reviewed the records at the request of the White House.


All in all, the documents show that Bush served intensively for four years and then let up in his fifth and sixth years, although he still did enough to meet Guard requirements. The records also suggest that Bush's superiors were not only happy with his performance from 1968 to 1972, but also happy with his decision to go to Alabama. Indeed, Bush's evaluating officer wrote in May 1972 that "Lt. Bush is very active in civic affairs in the community and manifests a deep interest in the operation of our government. He has recently accepted the position as campaign manager for a candidate for United States Senate. He is a good representative of the military and Air National Guard in the business world."


Beyond their apparent hope that Bush would be a good ambassador for the Guard, Bush's superiors might have been happy with his decision to go into politics for another reason: They simply had more people than they needed.


"In 1972, there was an enormous glut of pilots," says Campenni. "The Vietnam War was winding down, and the Air Force was putting pilots in desk jobs. In '72 or '73, if you were a pilot, active or Guard, and you had an obligation and wanted to get out, no problem. In fact, you were helping them solve their problem.""



The facts about the president's service.



The attempts to smear Bush years ago didn't hold up to scrutiny then they don't now.

I don't give a rats *** what National Guard pay documents say, the man didn't show up for training. His unit never saw him. If he wasn't there, the pay records are fraudulent. Bush got special treatment to avoid service in Vietnam, he got special treatment so that he could walk away from his guard unit in Texas to help on a family friends political campaign, he got special treatment when he was not disciplined for missing all those drills, he got special treatment when in spite of missing all those drills he got a couple of good OER's, and he got special treatment to draw his pay and get his points when he didn't report for duty in Alabama. Bottom line, one guy vs. his unit commander and over a dozen men in his squadron...the math tells the real story here. The very fact that he was getting all this special treatment cast sufficient doubt upon the veracity of any age old records that are so hard to read.

Right wingers need to just face the fact that their golden boy was not a war hero...hell he wasn't even a good troop. He was a dud. God forbid you should ever meet up with a real trooper like John Murtha or John McCaine. Now THOSE guys were real military men. Bush wouldn't have made a pimple on either of their asses.
 
No the rest of his military records prove beyond a doubt he served the time required.

Not according to the Boston Globe:

But Bush fell well short of meeting his military obligation, a Globe reexamination of the records shows: Twice during his Guard service -- first when he joined in May 1968, and again before he transferred out of his unit in mid-1973 to attend Harvard Business School -- Bush signed documents pledging to meet training commitments or face a punitive call-up to active duty.

'He broke his contract with the United States government -- without any adverse consequences. And the Texas Air National Guard was complicit in allowing this to happen. He was a pilot. It cost the government a million dollars to train him to fly. So he should have been held to an even higher standard.'--Retired Army Colonel Gerald A. Lechliter

"Although the records of Bush's service in 1973 are contradictory, some of them suggest that he did a flurry of drills in 1973 in Houston -- a weekend in April and then 38 days of training crammed into May, June, and July. But Lechliter, the retired colonel, concluded after reviewing National Guard regulations that Bush should not have received credit -- or pay -- for many of those days either. The regulations, Lechliter and others said, required that any scheduled drills that Bush missed be made up either within 15 days before or 30 days after the date of the drill.

"Lechliter said the records push him to conclude that Bush had little interest in fulfilling his obligation, and his superiors preferred to look the other way. Others agree. ''It appears that no one wanted to hold him accountable," said retired Major General Paul A. Weaver Jr., who retired in 2002 as the Pentagon's director of the Air National Guard."


http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0908-02.htm


The records indicate that, despite his move to Alabama, Bush met his obligation to the Guard in the 1972-73 year. At that time, Guardsmen were awarded points based on the days they reported for duty each year. They were given 15 points just for being in the Guard, and were then required to accumulate a total of 50 points to satisfy the annual requirement.

Here's this about that:

" On February 10, 2004, when the White House released George W. Bush’s payroll and points record, they also released a memo from a retired Air National Guard official, Albert Lloyd, claiming that all Bush needed to do was get 50 “points” per year, and that Bush had done so. The media, rather than check the facts, immediately jumped on Lloyd’s claim, and declared that Bush had fulfilled his requirements.

"There are a number of problems with the Lloyd memo. First, Lloyd lied about the “50 point” requirement. For George W. Bush, there was no “50 point minimum.” Secondly, Lloyd lied about the number of points Bush received. The document he claimed showed that Bush got 50 points in his last year shows that Bush received only 38 points. And third, not only was Lloyd an unreliable source because he had been handpicked by the Bush campaign to clear Bush’s name, but Lloyd himself was personally involved in providing Bush with favorable treatment when Bush was a member of the Texas Air National Guard."


ALBERT LLOYD AND THE “50 POINT” BIG LIE

"In 1972, there was an enormous glut of pilots," says Campenni. "The Vietnam War was winding down, and the Air Force was putting pilots in desk jobs. In '72 or '73, if you were a pilot, active or Guard, and you had an obligation and wanted to get out, no problem. In fact, you were helping them solve their problem.""

So, you think someone in authority told Bush he wasn't needed, and just to forget about his commitment? :roll:
 
Not according to the Boston Globe:

But Bush fell well short of meeting his military obligation, a Globe reexamination of the records shows: Twice during his Guard service -- first when he joined in May 1968, and again before he transferred out of his unit in mid-1973 to attend Harvard Business School -- Bush signed documents pledging to meet training commitments or face a punitive call-up to active duty.

'He broke his contract with the United States government -- without any adverse consequences. And the Texas Air National Guard was complicit in allowing this to happen. He was a pilot. It cost the government a million dollars to train him to fly. So he should have been held to an even higher standard.'--Retired Army Colonel Gerald A. Lechliter

"Although the records of Bush's service in 1973 are contradictory, some of them suggest that he did a flurry of drills in 1973 in Houston -- a weekend in April and then 38 days of training crammed into May, June, and July. But Lechliter, the retired colonel, concluded after reviewing National Guard regulations that Bush should not have received credit -- or pay -- for many of those days either. The regulations, Lechliter and others said, required that any scheduled drills that Bush missed be made up either within 15 days before or 30 days after the date of the drill.

"Lechliter said the records push him to conclude that Bush had little interest in fulfilling his obligation, and his superiors preferred to look the other way. Others agree. ''It appears that no one wanted to hold him accountable," said retired Major General Paul A. Weaver Jr., who retired in 2002 as the Pentagon's director of the Air National Guard."


Bush Fell Short on Duty at Guard; Records Show Pledges Unmet




Here's this about that:

" On February 10, 2004, when the White House released George W. Bush’s payroll and points record, they also released a memo from a retired Air National Guard official, Albert Lloyd, claiming that all Bush needed to do was get 50 “points” per year, and that Bush had done so. The media, rather than check the facts, immediately jumped on Lloyd’s claim, and declared that Bush had fulfilled his requirements.

"There are a number of problems with the Lloyd memo. First, Lloyd lied about the “50 point” requirement. For George W. Bush, there was no “50 point minimum.” Secondly, Lloyd lied about the number of points Bush received. The document he claimed showed that Bush got 50 points in his last year shows that Bush received only 38 points. And third, not only was Lloyd an unreliable source because he had been handpicked by the Bush campaign to clear Bush’s name, but Lloyd himself was personally involved in providing Bush with favorable treatment when Bush was a member of the Texas Air National Guard."


ALBERT LLOYD AND THE “50 POINT” BIG LIE



So, you think someone in authority told Bush he wasn't needed, and just to forget about his commitment? :roll:

Nice work Chanda...thanks for helping out here. He almost had me! :lol:
 
Nice work Chanda...thanks for helping out here. He almost had me! :lol:

Nah, not even close, but he has you on his ignore list, so I wanted to make sure he would see a rebuttal. :2wave:
 
Not according to the Boston Globe:

Retired Army Colonel Gerald A. Lechliter

From his website

"In 2000, Bush ran on bringing back “dignity and honor to the White House (WH)” and being a “compassionate conservative.” Since 9-11, he has wrapped himself in the flag to push forward a domestic agenda that is anything but compassionate and well to the right of center; embarked on a perilous new national security strategy of “preemptive war” and invaded Iraq; and even has used the uniform to garner political support, the first for a President in my lifetime, although there have been others who had more illustrious military service."
Oh now there is an unbias'd source.




A cite "dedicated" to proving Bush went AWOL. Give me a break. And the smear of LLoyd is just that.

But here from another form NG with personel experience

"" Lt. Col. Scott Gorske, a 23-year Guardsman with experience in personnel issues, said there is no requirement for National Guard members to drill every month. They are required to train a certain amount of time each year. It appears Bush met that requirement, said Gorske, who reviewed the documents."

Terry McAuliffe's High Stakes blunder



So, you think someone in authority told Bush he wasn't needed, and just to forget about his commitment?
Again

"Beyond their apparent hope that Bush would be a good ambassador for the Guard, Bush's superiors might have been happy with his decision to go into politics for another reason: They simply had more people than they needed. "In 1972, there was an enormous glut of pilots," says Campenni. "The Vietnam War was winding down, and the Air Force was putting pilots in desk jobs. In '72 or '73, if you were a pilot, active or Guard, and you had an obligation and wanted to get out, no problem. In fact, you were helping them solve their problem.""

Do you think it would have been prudent to put an pilot who had less than a year of service left through all the training required to fly the new F4, on a reserve basis, when they had an abundance of pilots with more time left, and already trained available?

Let's look at his entire record

FOUR YEARS OF FLYING

The controversy over Bush's service centers on what his critics call "the period in question," that is, the time from May 1972 until May 1973. What is not mentioned as often is that that period was in fact Bush's fifth year in the Guard, one that followed four years of often intense service. Bush joined in May 1968. He went through six weeks of basic training — a full-time job — at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Tex. Then he underwent 53 weeks of flight training — again, full time — at Moody Air Force Base in Valdosta, Ga. Then he underwent 21 weeks of fighter interceptor training — full time — at Ellington Air Force Base in Houston. Counting other, shorter, postings in between, by the end of his training period Bush had served two years on active duty.


Certified to fly the F-102 fighter plane, Bush then began a period of frequent — usually weekly — flying. The F-102 was designed to shoot down other fighter planes, and the missions Bush flew were training flights, mostly over the Gulf of Mexico and often at night, in which pilots took turns being the predator and the prey."If you're going to practice how to shoot down another airplane, then you have to have another airplane up there to work on," recalls retired Col. William Campenni, who flew with Bush in 1970 and 1971. "He'd be the target for the first half of the mission, and then we'd switch."


During that period Bush's superiors gave him consistently high ratings as a pilot. "Lt. Bush is an exceptional fighter interceptor pilot and officer," wrote one in a 1972 evaluation. Another evaluation, in 1971, called Bush "an exceptionally fine young officer and pilot" who "continually flies intercept missions with the unit to increase his proficiency even further." And a third rating, in 1970, said Bush "clearly stands out as a top notch fighter interceptor pilot" and was also "a natural leader whom his contemporaries look to for leadership."


All that flying involved quite a bit of work. "Being a pilot is more than just a monthly appearance," says Bob Harmon, a former Guard pilot who was a member of Bush's group in 1971 and 1972. "You cannot maintain your currency by doing just one drill a month. He was flying once or twice a week during that time, from May of 1971 until May of 1972." While the work was certainly not as dangerous as fighting in the jungles of Vietnam, it wasn't exactly safe, either. Harmon remembers a half-dozen Texas Air National Guard fliers who died in accidents over the years, in cluding one during the time Bush was flying. "This was not an endeavor without risk," Harmon notes.
The facts about the president's service.



Your entire smear is over the last few months of his service about a couple of days you contend he didn't serve. At a time the military didn't need him and his actions were with the complete approval of his superiors. That is your whole smear of him while you totally ignore the years of service he gave to his country.



Why? And why do you think early discharges, especially when the Viet Nam war ended were unusual at all? So even if he got an early discharge, what is your beef?

When you can prove he did not complete his service to the satisfaction of his superiors let me know.
 
Why do you leftys always hijack threads??? This one is about that pot smoking, womanizing, unconvicted rapist, perjurer draft dodger "Slick Willie" Clinton....
 
Why do you leftys always hijack threads??? This one is about that pot smoking, womanizing, unconvicted rapist, perjurer draft dodger "Slick Willie" Clinton....

Moderator's Warning:
OK, tell you what, NP. I'll issue this warning, asking everyone to stop discussing Bush and stay on the topic of Clinton. But remember, the next thread on Bush that you bring up Clinton, you will also get warned.

Back to the topic at hand folks. If you want to discuss Bush's military service, start a thread on it.
 
This thread can be said in two words. Penis Envy. :2wave: .
 
This thread can be said in two words. Penis Envy. :2wave: .

Naw it's about how the neo-progs try to hide what a sleaze bag Bill Clinton really is and how his wife has always been his enabler and protector.
 
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