The Ideal Nation

LeftyHenry · Apr 14, 2006

This would be my system, briefly for running America or any nation

EDUCATION strict, rigorous, public education that starts at 7:30 each day and ends at 4:30. Kids are required to have complete AP courses in everysubject and be proficient in at least two languages. physical education classes are everyday for an hour. Uniforms are required as school is not a fashion show. people who misbehave must complete at least an hour of community service depending on the situation. College is free, along with job placement programs. Jallman style

http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/10006-do-our-public-schools-need-reform-what-way-5.html

(besides for corporal punishment)

ECONOMY planned economy, no clases, nationalized industry. Allows for people to be to be in a small part part of the way industry is run rather than a couple of fat rich men. Foreign Investors are encouraged. Workers are rewarded with compensations and days off for hard work, while slackers are given more hours of work with closer watch.

POLITICAL PROCESS Congress of 500ish, Senate of 100 , 9 supreme justices, 1 premier. All democratically elected. congress is voted in by district, while Senate is voted in by state. No private donations as these will not only sway nominees into puppets, but will also create a disadvantage and vote based on flashy campaigns rather than politics. Political parties of hate are banned.

CIVIL LIBERTIES People are allowed to do whatever they want within the boundaries of hurting someone else. Marijuana, graffiti, cigarettes, alchohol, and etc.. are legal

HEALTHCARE free universal healthcare. No one is denied. living standards are very high and food, water, and shelter are provided by law to those who work.

IMMIGRATION Fences are built on border. Surveillance cameras put everywhere, increase of border patrol, Stop the catch and release. Allow 1-4% of current nations immigrant population into the nation.

SOCIAL SECURITY privatize it

MILTARY slowly decrease spending as miltary troops hand over Iraq and Afghanistan to homeland forces.

A.IRAQ Divide into 3 nations. One for Kurds, One for Shiites, And one for the Sunnis. Each nation is independently run by each group. Shiites will get their largest land an most oil wells, Sunnis second, Kurds third. This plan will kill the insurgency because no group will feel marginalized and US will have low presence.

B. SERVICE every man is required to serve 6-12 months in the armed forces.

RENEWABLE ENERGY Follow Brazil's lead and switch to ethanol oil. It's cheaper, works the same as gas, pollutes less, and decreases our dependecy on Middle East.

OVERALL GOAL To provide our citizens with a comfortable, productive life

that's a basic outline, comments?

Scarecrow Akhbar · Apr 15, 2006

Che said:
EDUCATION strict, rigorous, public education that starts at 7:30 each day and ends at 4:30.

Sorta rough on the kidnergartners. What's "strict", or "rigorous"? Fails to take into account limited ability of the young mind to absorb new information, too.

Che said:
Kids are required to have complete AP courses in everysubject and be proficient in at least two languages.

Everyone takes "AP" courses? What's the point in wasting the resources that requires on a bimbo wanting nothing more than watch Oprah while she does perms at Supercuts? Proficient in two languages? Why? English is good enough for everyone, and most people can't even do that right. If a plumber needs to learn spanish, he can hire a wetback to teach him how to say "P-trap" in mexican.

Che said:
physical education classes are everyday for an hour.

Again, why? Wouldn't 58 minutes be better so they can find a place to squeeze in the Two Minute Hate?

Che said:
Uniforms are required as school is not a fashion show.

Who's got the right to tell me how to dress my kid? Remember? America is a country based on the concept of self-determination and freedom of choice? In a word, "freedom". Maybe the Hitler Youth needed uniforms, maybe Mao See Dung's Cultural Destruction had to have uniforms, and certainly Castro's regimented poverty stricken bottom of the third world regime needs uniforms to further instill the notion of Big Brother in the poor slaves he keeps on that crappy island, but stupid bureaucrats have NO business telling free men how to dress their children.

No society that denies human freedom can be considersed "ideal".

Che said:
people who misbehave must complete at least an hour of community service depending on the situation.

Slave labor is always a deterrent, I suppose. Why not just shoot them, and help Darwin along instead?

Che said:
College is free, along with job placement programs.

Why? Why shouldn't someone wanting to go to school have to find the money to pay for it himself, or sign up for loans to pay for it later? Why should a family making low wages be expected to pay for some drunk frat-boy to go to school and party while getting a really difficult degree in bowling instruction? Let the premise of freedom that built America run the college system. If someone wants it, he'll find a way to pay for it. That's not only the essence of freedom, it's the epitome of fairness, as well.

Che said:
ECONOMY planned economy,

Planned economies work so well, that's why all the countries that plan theirs always go belly up.

Che said:
no clases[sic]

Yeah, in a pigs eye. Gonna do genetic surgery so that all future children look exactly alike, behave exactly alike, think exactly alike, and have exactly equal abilities? No? Then classes will evolve no matter what. All socialist nations have at least two classes. The slaves, and the masters, though they use a different nomenclature, the relationship between them are the same.

Che said:
nationalized industry.

What's ideal about this? America's public school is a "nationalized industry". That's why it's bad. Amtrak is a "nationalized industry", that's why it's bankrupt. Mexico has a nationalized oil industry. That's why all the damn Mexicans want to move here. Nations that nationalize their industries go bankrupt.

That's a fact of life.

Che said:
Allows for people to be to be in a small part part of the way industry is run rather than a couple of fat rich men.

Ummm....yeah, okay. Mob rule by people mostly ignorant of how to run a business is always better than running a business by professionals intent on maximizing the profits of the stockholders. There are rare, very rare exceptions, like Enron, but for the most part, the US model of freedom and private ownership of property has maximized the productivity of the nation, the companies, and the workers.

If it weren't for private enterprise, the US would probably have looked like East Germany, which had ...umm.. nationalized industry.

Che said:
Foreign Investors are encouraged.

Oh? When the industries are nationalized? That don't fit.

Che said:
Workers are rewarded with compensations and days off for hard work, while slackers are given more hours of work with closer watch.

Yeah, that's the way slaves are usually treated. In America, workers that produce are paid more in cash, or promoted. The slackers are told to leave. This has been found to be a vastly better motivator than the overseer's whip.

Che said:
POLITICAL PROCESS Congress of 500ish, Senate of 100 , 9 supreme justices, 1 premier. All democratically elected. congress is voted in by district, while Senate is voted in by state. No private donations as these will not only sway nominees into puppets, but will also create a disadvantage and vote based on flashy campaigns rather than politics. Political parties of hate are banned.

What? Give the slaves a vote? All that would happen is that they've vote for people who'd promise them a chicken in every pot (we've done that to our regret already, but people are stupid and do it every election), and the incumbent politicians would work to establish a situation in which their re-election is guaranteed.

Just like today. And banning private contributions is violating a man's fundamental freedom to spend his money as he wishes, and his fundamental freedom to participate in the foolishness known as mob rule...er "democracy".

Che said:
CIVIL LIBERTIES People are allowed to do whatever they want within the boundaries of hurting someone else. Marijuana, graffiti, cigarettes, alchohol, and etc.. are legal

Grafitti is legal? What about the boundary a property owner sets on what should be painted on his walls? What about the owners of the freeway overpasses, the subway trains, and the city busses? Grafitti hurts all those.

Che said:
HEALTHCARE free universal healthcare. No one is denied. living standards are very high and food, water, and shelter are provided by law to those who work.

Under your system, living standards will be very low, there will be no surplus capital to support universal Robbin' Hood Health Care.

Che said:
IMMIGRATION Fences are built on border. Surveillance cameras put everywhere, increase of border patrol, Stop the catch and release. Allow 1-4% of current nations immigrant population into the nation.

Why? Don't those people deserve an opportunity to enjoy paradise, too?

Che said:
SOCIAL SECURITY privatize it

You can't. You've nationalized all business, and thereby destroyed private ownership. Besides which, in your paradise everyone is being cared for by the Nanny State, and that would include the elderly. All that your system could do with Socialist Security is so expand it that it no longer exists as a separate entitlement.

What? Don't you like socialist security? It's the eptiome of your ideology.

Che said:
MILTARY slowly decrease spending as miltary troops hand over Iraq and Afghanistan to homeland forces.

:2wave:A short-sighted, limited view violating you're caveat that your ideal government isn't America-specific.

Re-write this part and define what a military should be doing without distracting and invalid details. A valid military plan will exclude such things upon inspection.

Che said:
B. SERVICE every man is required to serve 6-12 months in the armed forces.

While it certainly fits with your view of man-as-slave, its not consistent with a view of man as free individual. Offer volunteers incentive to enlist, ie, training, pay, travel, excting career, a trip out of the slums. Which is what we do today.

Che said:
RENEWABLE ENERGY Follow Brazil's lead and switch to ethanol oil. It's cheaper, works the same as gas, pollutes less, and decreases our dependecy on Middle East.

I suppose. Lots of options. I doubt if ethanol is ideal, but perhaps it's a fair stop-gap measure.

Che said:
OVERALL GOAL To provide our citizens with a comfortable, productive life

That's not a proper or even a possible function of government.

LeftyHenry · Apr 15, 2006

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Sorta rough on the kidnergartners. What's "strict", or "rigorous"? Fails to take into account limited ability of the young mind to absorb new information, too.

Of course Kindergardeners willhave a milder curriculum but once you reach grade school we put on the heat. The reason why our public schools are failing is because kids can get away with what ever they want and don't pay attention.

Everyone takes "AP" courses? What's the point in wasting the resources that requires on a bimbo wanting nothing more than watch Oprah while she does perms at Supercuts? Proficient in two languages? Why? English is good enough for everyone, and most people can't even do that right. If a plumber needs to learn spanish, he can hire a wetback to teach him how to say "P-trap" in mexican.

Because you that's just the point. It's to challenge people. This is how you determine who is going to be the Maid (incompetent high school drop out) and who is going to be the nuclear physist.

Our kids today are among the dumbest because thei school sysytem is a joke. This wouldn't be.

Again, why? Wouldn't 58 minutes be better so they can find a place to squeeze in the Two Minute Hate?

Our kids, today, are the fattest in the world. They over eat, don't eat properly, and something like 1 of 3 will be obese and 1 of 8 qill have diabetes. If kids exercise properly they won't become the fat generation. IN short, it's healthy to stay fit. Also it gives the kids a relax period.

Who's got the right to tell me how to dress my kid? Remember? America is a country based on the concept of self-determination and freedom of choice? In a word, "freedom". Maybe the Hitler Youth needed uniforms, maybe Mao See Dung's Cultural Destruction had to have uniforms, and certainly Castro's regimented poverty stricken bottom of the third world regime needs uniforms to further instill the notion of Big Brother in the poor slaves he keeps on that crappy island, but stupid bureaucrats have NO business telling free men how to dress their children.

No society that denies human freedom can be considersed "ideal".

I have the right because it prepares children for the corporate world. Kids will stop spending 3 hours choosing which jeans look nice and start using 3 hours concenrating on their work. All those places you mention are fascist regimes. This isn't it would be one of the freest nations in the world.

Slave labor is always a deterrent, I suppose. Why not just shoot them, and help Darwin along instead?

Why? Why shouldn't someone wanting to go to school have to find the money to pay for it himself, or sign up for loans to pay for it later? Why should a family making low wages be expected to pay for some drunk frat-boy to go to school and party while getting a really difficult degree in bowling instruction? Let the premise of freedom that built America run the college system. If someone wants it, he'll find a way to pay for it. That's not only the essence of freedom, it's the epitome of fairness, as well.

Why? Beacause too long have the working class skipped college because they can't afford to pay a loan or tuition. This will change all that. Besides, I forgot to mention that college is only for people with an 83 average or higher.

Planned economies work so well, that's why all the countries that plan theirs always go belly up.

This has a little twist. What do you propose? capitalism? have 12 men able to buy the word several times over while 12 million can't even get a bite to eat? Yeah capitalism works well. It works well from your comfortables middleclass surburban house.

Yeah, in a pigs eye. Gonna do genetic surgery so that all future children look exactly alike, behave exactly alike, think exactly alike, and have exactly equal abilities? No? Then classes will evolve no matter what. All socialist nations have at least two classes. The slaves, and the masters, though they use a different nomenclature, the relationship between them are the same.

What are rambling about you startrek freak? This is the freest nation in the world. Their masters are democraticallly elected so what are you talking about? capitalism gives a few the wealth, socialism gives everyone the wealth.

What's ideal about this? America's public school is a "nationalized industry". That's why it's bad. Amtrak is a "nationalized industry", that's why it's bankrupt. Mexico has a nationalized oil industry. That's why all the damn Mexicans want to move here. Nations that nationalize their industries go bankrupt.

That's a fact of life.

America's public schools fail because kids can't get punished, The standards are very low, and because teacher's unions keep it easy for themselves. This system will change all that because the standards are high, and teachers are required to reapply each year.

Amtrak failed souly because of it's incompetence and poor planning. Look at France's nationized trains, they're always on time and work very well. Better then any other train company in the world. Also it doesn't help that cars are abundant and planes are faster.

Mexico's oil company has nothing to do with illegal immigrants. Do you see any mexicans working on pipelines or oil rigs here? Well I don't.

Ummm....yeah, okay. Mob rule by people mostly ignorant of how to run a business is always better than running a business by professionals intent on maximizing the profits of the stockholders. There are rare, very rare exceptions, like Enron, but for the most part, the US model of freedom and private ownership of property has maximized the productivity of the nation, the companies, and the workers.

Ummm....yeah, okay. Mob rule by people mostly ignorant of how to run a government is always better thatn a bunch of professional dicatators.... c'mon democracy is the same let it's the best system in the world. Besides, the companies would still be run by people who know what they're doing. The people are sorta like stock holders present day.

If it weren't for private enterprise, the US would probably have looked like East Germany, which had ...umm.. nationalized industry.

If you knew anything about history you'd know that East Germany was kept poor in order to avoid another German invasion of Russia that killed millions. Besides, there will still be private industry but on a local level. No Corporations a rich fat white men.

[/QUOTE]Oh? When the industries are nationalized? That don't fit.
[/QUOTE]

It actually does. Investors are encouraged to invest and recieve small profit but also to come in and start there own buinesses.

What? Give the slaves a vote? All that would happen is that they've vote for people who'd promise them a chicken in every pot (we've done that to our regret already, but people are stupid and do it every election), and the incumbent politicians would work to establish a situation in which their re-election is guaranteed.

Why do you keep calling people slaves. They're not slaves they're working for there nation, their family, and other bonuses and incentives

Grafitti is legal? What about the boundary a property owner sets on what should be painted on his walls? What about the owners of the freeway overpasses, the subway trains, and the city busses? Grafitti hurts all those.

They'd do it anyway. graffiti artists do graffiti for one reason and one reason only: To get back at the government and society. What you would see if graffiti was legalized is that graffiti artists would gradually stop doing it because it's not cool anymore and not illegal. And the ones that still do it will do complex and cultural pieces.

Under your system, living standards will be very low, there will be no surplus capital to support universal Robbin' Hood Health Care.

There'd be plenty of capital coming from private local industries, foreign investments, and the backbone of the economy; the nationalized industry and work projects.

Why? Don't those people deserve an opportunity to enjoy paradise, too?

They do, we just nee to control who comes in and how many. We only have a certain amount of jobs.

You can't. You've nationalized all business, and thereby destroyed private ownership. Besides which, in your paradise everyone is being cared for by the Nanny State, and that would include the elderly. All that your system could do with Socialist Security is so expand it that it no longer exists as a separate entitlement.

What? Don't you like socialist security? It's the eptiome of your ideology.

What I mean by privatizing SS is that people will place all their money in a savings account throughout their life they then will use it at their retirement.

While it certainly fits with your view of man-as-slave, its not consistent with a view of man as free individual. Offer volunteers incentive to enlist, ie, training, pay, travel, excting career, a trip out of the slums. Which is what we do today.

You of all people, an ultra fascist conservative should think that fighting for your country (for half a year, non-combat) would be a good enough incentive. Those who do extend their tours of duty will be able get a better job.

I suppose. Lots of options. I doubt if ethanol is ideal, but perhaps it's a fair stop-gap measure.

At least we almost agree on something.

That's not a proper or even a possible function of government.

This is a government built around the people, not on them. Sort of the opposite of your ideal nation.

Nero · Apr 15, 2006

Because you that's just the point. It's to challenge people. This is how you determine who is going to be the Maid (incompetent high school drop out) and who is going to be the nuclear physist.

Our kids today are among the dumbest because thei school sysytem is a joke. This wouldn't be.

considering you admit that some poeple will be the made and others will be nuclear physists why go through the whole school charade? I mean you don't think you can tell the differance between the smart and the dumb in
2nd grade? Why should someone who is gonna be a made anyway learn 2 languages? why should she learn a 9 hour day?

Our kids, today, are the fattest in the world. They over eat, don't eat properly, and something like 1 of 3 will be obese and 1 of 8 qill have diabetes. If kids exercise properly they won't become the fat generation. IN short, it's healthy to stay fit. Also it gives the kids a relax period.

People are allowed to do whatever they want within the boundaries of hurting someone else. Marijuana, graffiti, cigarettes, alchohol, and etc.. are legal

a fat person hurts only himself, whats the problem with that?

capitalism gives a few the wealth, socialism gives everyone the wealth.

You mean socialism steals the wealth at gunpoint and give it to the mob?

It actually does. Investors are encouraged to invest and recieve small profit but also to come in and start there own buinesses.

no foreign investor in his right mind would invest in a country like yours where his profit will be tiny. He will have to pay more per worker and sell for less, what interest would he have in your country? Remember you are talking about the "fat belleid capitalist" looking to make a profit what interest does he have in your country?

LeftyHenry · Apr 15, 2006

Nero said:
considering you admit that some poeple will be the made and others will be nuclear physists why go through the whole school charade? I mean you don't think you can tell the differance between the smart and the dumb in
2nd grade? Why should someone who is gonna be a made anyway learn 2 languages? why should she learn a 9 hour day?

Because school trains ones mind for harder things that come.

a fat person hurts only himself, whats the problem with that?

errr... it's not healthy?

You mean socialism steals the wealth at gunpoint and give it to the mob?

It steals the wealth at gun point that the person at gun point took for others less fortunate by gun point.

no foreign investor in his right mind would invest in a country like yours where his profit will be tiny. He will have to pay more per worker and sell for less, what interest would he have in your country? Remember you are talking about the "fat belleid capitalist" looking to make a profit what interest does he have in your country?

what investor in his right mind would invest in any company or country? I'll tell you why they'd come, because they'd have a say in entire nations industry.

nkgupta80 · Apr 15, 2006

in the type of economy you describe, there is no competition, thus very litttle progress.

LeftyHenry · Apr 15, 2006

nkgupta80 said:
in the type of economy you describe, there is no competition, thus very litttle progress.

you're probably right. Although there would be competition on local levels...

Anyhow it was a failed attempt at creating a mix between socialism and capitalism. One that would have a strong, lucrative, economy yet take care of its less fortunate. Anyone else wanna take a shot at making such a system?

Jerry · Apr 15, 2006

Sorry, but you had to see this coming.....

My ideal "nation": In Heaven, with God. A perfect benevolent dictatorship.
Anything less is hell.

Scarecrow Akhbar · Apr 16, 2006

Che said:
Of course Kindergardeners willhave a milder curriculum but once you reach grade school we put on the heat. The reason why our public schools are failing is because kids can get away with what ever they want and don't pay attention.

No, our schools are failing because a national government took control of them under the advice and influence of a union. Since all governments and all unions are corrupt, it's no wonder that the schools are now corrupt also, and that our children are being corrupted as a result.

Fix the schools? Ban the freakin' unions, return control back to the state for the interim, and then proceed to privatize the entire system. People with kids can pay for their education, people without shouldn't be expected to support someone else's reproductive choices. People with soft-heads and/or bleeding hearts can voluntarily contribute any such sums for their own money as makes their feelings of guilt diminish.

Parents that don't pay attention to their kids education will wind up with kids just like them, poor and stupid and working at Wal-Mart.

Che said:
Because you that's just the point. It's to challenge people. This is how you determine who is going to be the Maid (incompetent high school drop out) and who is going to be the nuclear physist.

Oh, you can tell who the rocket scientists are, and who's going to be filling the coke machines at NASA without the expense of AP courses for everyone. This is probably evident by the fourth grade.

Che said:
Our kids today are among the dumbest because thei school sysytem is a joke. This wouldn't be.

True, government and socialist feel good emotion-based decision making has replaced good old fashioned teaching methods that work. But what do you expect? Unions and government view students as an exploitable resource, not a precious orchid to be carefully nurtured.

Che said:
Our kids, today, are the fattest in the world. They over eat, don't eat properly, and something like 1 of 3 will be obese and 1 of 8 qill have diabetes. If kids exercise properly they won't become the fat generation. IN short, it's healthy to stay fit. Also it gives the kids a relax period.

And if some people were better educated, they're be more familiar with literary references.

Che said:
I have the right because it prepares children for the corporate world.

No you don't. The best you can do is get a bunch of your fellow parents to agree to dress your own kids in whatever version of the latest Hitler Youth costume is in vogue. You have no authority over how I decide mine should be dressed.

Che said:
Kids will stop spending 3 hours choosing which jeans look nice and start using 3 hours concenrating on their work. All those places you mention are fascist regimes.

Really? What do you think you're trying to create here, with regimentation and goose-stepping in the first grade?

Che said:
This isn't it would be one of the freest nations in the world.

Not with regimentation and goose-stepping and don't forget the patriotic songs and the Two-Minute Hate.

Che said:
Slave labor is always a deterrent, I suppose. Why not just shoot them, and help Darwin along instead?

Other fascists states have found that expedient, Germany, Italy, Soviet Union, China, Cambodia, Cuba (Che helped make that one), sure they all do it eventually. We really should just go to the end product and skip the expensive middle, if we're going to implement your "ideal". It's what will evolve on it's own, anyway.

Che said:
Why? Beacause too long have the working class skipped college because they can't afford to pay a loan or tuition. This will change all that. Besides, I forgot to mention that college is only for people with an 83 average or higher.

Oh, no. That's discriminatory. Can't have that. The working class skips college for a few reasons:

1) The worker bee is too stupid to go.

2) The worker bee spends too much time partying instead of studying, so discovers that real college is work, and quits.

3) The worker bee discovers that married with children is very similar to swimming with anchor.

There's more, and combinations of all of them. But are you able to see the common element in all those "excuses"? They're making free choices. ... well, they don't choose to be stupid, but the stupid ones shouldn't go to college anyway. But for all the rest, they make choices when they're eighteen or so that sends them to college, or to work.

It's not like I don't know what I'm talking about. Being the son of trailer trash, it was perfectly conceivable that I could have wound up like my older brother, dead at 19, killed in an accident in flight from a felony, or like my younger brother, tied down as a single father because a bimbette he picked up while driving an eighteen wheeler between states claimed to have a "latex allergy".

Instead, when I was eighteen, I threw away a 1430 score on the SAT and learned how to run a nuclear reactor for naval submarines. Then when I got discharged I put myself through college, because that's what I wanted to do.

So this bullshit about how the poor can't go through college unless it's given to them without cost is total elitist bullshit, we don't need it. The opportunity is there for those that want it. End of story.

Che said:
This has a little twist. What do you propose? capitalism?

Yes, moral solutions are always the best, and capitalism is the most moral economic system ever conceived by man. Don't think so? Explain why all the other ones have to have guns to work.

Che said:
have 12 men able to buy the word several times over while 12 million can't even get a bite to eat?

And there's something wrong with this? Why can't the 12 megamouths find food? Because they're living under governments that view them as a commodity. Capitalists view them as a market. And markets need to be developed and nurtured to produce profits.

But the twelve socialist guys in charge of the country with the 12 megamouths all have millions in their private swiss bank accounts, that's a certainty.

Che said:
Yeah capitalism works well. It works well from your comfortables middleclass surburban house.

It works well every where, so naturally it works where I live, too.

Che said:
What are rambling about you startrek freak? This is the freest nation in the world. Their masters are democraticallly elected so what are you talking about? capitalism gives a few the wealth, socialism gives everyone the wealth.

Yeah, everyone was rich in Cambodia, China, East Germany, and the USSR. They're just rolling in gold dust in Cuba as you read this, socialism is so successful. I mean, socialism is so successful, only socialist countries get to enjoy the pleasures of massive malnutrition and vitamin deficiencies, like Cuba. THAT's "real wealth".

Che said:
America's public schools fail because kids can't get punished. The standards are very low, and because teacher's unions keep it easy for themselves. This system will change all that because the standards are high, and teachers are required to reapply each year.

Ah, punishment. The panacea of the socialist and slave-master both. What will turn America's school system around it the free market. When the parents that care can pull their students from the bad schools, the bad schools will start turning themselves around, or they're close. That's how capitalism works.

Che said:
Amtrak failed souly because of it's incompetence and poor planning.

Yeah, saying it's "socialist" cuts down on a lot of wasted words.

Che said:
Look at France's nationized trains, they're always on time and work very well. Better then any other train company in the world. Also it doesn't help that cars are abundant and planes are faster.

Oh, you mean a nation spanning a continent might not find it economical or sensible to run a socialized rail system that hole the size of Texas would find convenient? And that still doesn't answer the question of why people not using the French trains should be required to subsidize them.

But that doesn't address that matter of French trains, which very well may be the "best run". For how much? If you're going to bring in France, you need to examine the whole socialist society, which currently includes "jobs for life", which pretty much means no jobs for many, and thus we have the amusing spectacle of riots in France over jobs.

Scarecrow Akhbar · Apr 16, 2006

Che said:
Mexico's oil company has nothing to do with illegal immigrants. Do you see any mexicans working on pipelines or oil rigs here? Well I don't.

Oh, but it does. Because Mexico's socialist, the oil revenues feed the leaders of the political party in charge, and none of that money trickes down to the masses. The masses don't have work, they don't have education, they don't have freedom, and they don't have hope, so they run north, encouraged by a government that's trying to take over parts of this country, and succeeding.

Che said:
Ummm....yeah, okay. Mob rule by people mostly ignorant of how to run a government is always better thatn a bunch of professional dicatators.... c'mon democracy is the same let it's the best system in the world. Besides, the companies would still be run by people who know what they're doing. The people are sorta like stock holders present day.

"Democracy" such as what we now have in this country, ie, greedy ignorant people voting for promises that they'll get to raid their neighbors pockets, is close to the reality of "democracy". What was intended, as any reading of the Constution will show you, is a process whereby leaders selected by informed voters could make decisions on important issues to the nation, within clearly defined limits that protected the individual's freedom to act and his freedom to control his own property and his life. That's very far indeed from today's "democracy" of mob-rule, eminent domain, and socialist tax-and-spend schemes.

Che said:
If you knew anything about history you'd know that East Germany was kept poor in order to avoid another German invasion of Russia that killed millions. Besides, there will still be private industry but on a local level. No Corporations a rich fat white men.

Oh, you mean the Daddy Socialist kept raping the Daughter Socialist? How's that alter the equation when the Daddy Socialist finally collapsed of acute poverty?

Che said:
It actually does. Investors are encouraged to invest and recieve small profit but also to come in and start there own buinesses.

Oh, in other words, you want to steal the industries from today's owners and then sell them to special interests supporting your ideals. I understand. That's not "nationalization", that's what socialism usually produces. Not that it makes anything work better. Usually the orginal owners actually knew something about the industries they owned, and the new owners don't, so they wind up collapsing. Ignorance has the effect.

Che said:
Why do you keep calling people slaves. They're not slaves they're working for there nation, their family, and other bonuses and incentives.

They don't have freedom, they have to work, or they get punished. That makes them slaves. Learn what words mean.

Che said:
They'd do it anyway. graffiti artists do graffiti for one reason and one reason only: To get back at the government and society.

See? I know what words mean. You can't have a graffiti artist. You have a vandal. If it's his property, he's not defacing its, and it's thus not graffitti. If he doesn't own it, it's vandalism.

Che said:
What you would see if graffiti was legalized is that graffiti artists would gradually stop doing it because it's not cool anymore and not illegal.

Oooh...the potent imagination some have. What you'll find if that form of vandalism is no longer a crime is more of it...free market rules, you know...and since the primary purpose of that form of vandalism is the marking of territory similar to jackals ******* to mark their boundaries, you'll find graffittin on top of grafitti, and of course the consequent gang wars that result from such juvenile exhibitions of tribalism.

Che said:
And the ones that still do it will do complex and cultural pieces.

Crap. They'll still have to do it in a hurry because the rival gansters will kill them. And there's no cultural value in having the walls of my house vandalized by a low forehead gangster thug.

What's happened to the wall's owner's freedom to express his artistic appreciation of a cleanly painted wall?

Che said:
There'd be plenty of capital coming from private local industries, foreign investments, and the backbone of the economy; the nationalized industry and work projects.

Sunk into a nationalistic sink hole ? That don't happen often, when it does, the socialists all gang together to whine about the special interests taking advantage of the "disadvantaged poor" in under-developed third world ****-holes. Oh, they don't call them ****-holes. But that's what they are.

Che said:
They do, we just nee to control who comes in and how many. We only have a certain amount of jobs.

And we'll have even less jobs if the industries are ever nationalized.

Che said:
What I mean by privatizing SS is that people will place all their money in a savings account throughout their life they then will use it at their retirement.

Hmmm...and those savings accounts will be able to return compound interest by investing in...? Oh, nothing, because there's no private investment in industry because the government's nationalized it all.

MAYBE they're investing in nations that still believe in freedom? That won't last long, though. As the nationalization of industry follows it's oh-so predictable decline, the government will be looking at those savings accounts and they'll get "nationalized" eventually. Probably sooner, actually. Eventually it will become a crime to hold foreign currency or accounts in foreign nations, and when that happens, only the party leaders will have them.

Che said:
You of all people, an ultra fascist

Ummm...you ever think of looking up the words you use? A "fascist" is a person that believes that the nation's industry should remain in private hands but be controlled by the government. You're advocating that the government should take over all industry, then sell it to private individuals...under it's control, of course. Clearly you're using "fascist" out of either your own ignorance, which is clearly a distinct possiblity, or you're hoping that I don't know what words mean, forlorn hope that is, or you're merely hoping that other people won't know what fascist means. Well, now they know. You must be pretty embarassed right about now.

Oh, and you should lay off the word "ultra". One either is fascist, like you, or they're not, like me. There's not really any middle ground.

Che said:
conservative

Then we get to the word "conservative'. I've never been able to define it. Certainly where the "conservative" philiosophy supports and enhances individual freedom it overlaps my own libertarian views, but any self-proclaimed "conservative" will deny any affiliation with me. They're not good enough.

Needless to say, it's pretty hard to make a "conservative fascist", let alone an "ultra" one. It's like trying to make an honest socialist. They just don't exist.

Che said:
should think that fighting for your country (for half a year, non-combat) would be a good enough incentive. Those who do extend their tours of duty will be able get a better job.

Those who don't want to fight in a war shouldn't be required to do so. If we don't have enough bodies to fill the ranks, the correct, freedom-based, solution to the problem is to offer more incentives to encourage people to enlist of their own free will. (Libertarian, remember? Freedom of choice is everything.)

Only those that view people as a commodity thinks in terms of involuntary servitude. It's not surprising a socialist would recommend a draft.

Che said:
This is a government built around the people, not on them. Sort of the opposite of your ideal nation.

No, you're buidling a government on the backs of the people. They can't decline to join in the scheme, so they're naught but slaves. Yeah, that's the opposite of my ideal, true enough.

Scarecrow Akhbar · Apr 16, 2006

Che said:
errr... it's not healthy?

Yeah, but what's that got to do with you? I had a co-worker that weighed more than 400 lbs. His desk was covered with chip bags, soda cans, and similar crap. When asked why he ate that ****, he said "because it tastes good". He died of a heart attack a few years back. His choice.

If you're concerned about the burden fat people place on the health care system, the correct thing to do is to get government out of the health care business. Then they get to bear their own costs.

This is called, once again, "freedom".

Che said:
It steals the wealth at gun point that the person at gun point took for others less fortunate by gun point.

Oh, yeah, I forgot about that guy from GMC with the machine gun at the dealership, and Bill Gates must clearly be the biggest arms dealer in the world, considering how many people were forced to buy his products. Not to mention the GE and Westinghouse guys watching over the lightbulbs at all stores, and all the rest those evil capitalist just forcing me to buy their products.

I mean, I must be really stupid because I'd never buy that stuff for myself of my own choices. There just has to be those guys with the guns around somewhere.

Che said:
What investor in his right mind would invest in any company or country? I'll tell you why they'd come, because they'd have a say in entire nations industry.

Yeah, those 150,000,000 investors that couldn't prevent their own government from stealing their fortunes will be glad to invest in other nations where they'd suddenly discover a voice to control how those businessaes are run. Makes sense to someone, I suppose.

Of course, the notion of people buying a peice of a company and thus purchasing a right to voice opinion in how that company is run is what the rest of us call "capitalism", but you can pretend it's something else if the truth offends you.

alphamale · Apr 16, 2006

Che said:
This would be my system, briefly for running America or any nation

Idealists have been the scourge of man for hundreds of years.

EDUCATION strict, rigorous, public education that starts at 7:30 each day and ends at 4:30.

You blew it in the first sentence - government schools are a disaster in case you haven't noticed.

people who misbehave must complete at least an hour of community service depending on the situation.

Oh goody - the return of slavery!

College is free, along with job placement programs. Jallman style

There's no such thing as "free" - someone gets stuck with the bill.

ECONOMY planned economy, no clases, nationalized industry. Allows for people to be to be in a small part part of the way industry is run rather than a couple of fat rich men.

Have you learned ANYTHING from history?? ANYTHING???

POLITICAL PROCESS Congress of 500ish, Senate of 100 , 9 supreme justices, 1 premier. All democratically elected. congress is voted in by district, while Senate is voted in by state. No private donations as these will not only sway nominees into puppets, but will also create a disadvantage and vote based on flashy campaigns rather than politics. Political parties of hate are banned.

Who determines who those parties are? Scratch free speech!

HEALTHCARE free universal healthcare.

No such thing - someone pays.

No one is denied. living standards are very high and food, water, and shelter are provided by law to those who work.

Utter contradiction with your "planned economy".

A.IRAQ Divide into 3 nations. One for Kurds, One for Shiites, And one for the Sunnis. Each nation is independently run by each group. Shiites will get their largest land an most oil wells, Sunnis second, Kurds third. This plan will kill the insurgency because no group will feel marginalized and US will have low presence.

The two smaller states will be swallowed up in a blink.

B. SERVICE every man is required to serve 6-12 months in the armed forces.

More slavery!

RENEWABLE ENERGY Follow Brazil's lead and switch to ethanol oil. It's cheaper, works the same as gas, pollutes less, and decreases our dependecy on Middle East.

A lunatic scheme - ethanol costs MORE than gasoline.

OVERALL GOAL To provide our citizens with a comfortable, productive life

Your scheme is a blueprint for deprivation, slavery, suppression of human rights, medical rationing, and economic ruin. And you belong right up there with the "great" idealists of history.

LeftyHenry · Apr 16, 2006

You blew it in the first sentence - government schools are a disaster in case you haven't noticed.

Yeah that's why this school plan will fix them

Oh goody - the return of slavery!

Oh yeah working at a soup kitchen, real slavery. You obviously haven't ever done volunteer work. Typical of a selfish conman.

Ever heard of detention????

There's no such thing as "free" - someone gets stuck with the bill.

by free I mean that no one should be denied an education just because they're poor.

Have you learned ANYTHING from history?? ANYTHING???

Yeah but this is different more motives and more breathing space for small private businesses.

Who determines who those parties are? Scratch free speech!

The People!

No such thing - someone pays.

tax payers but it's for the good of everyone.

Utter contradiction with your "planned economy".

The planned economy basically means that industry is nationalized. However on the local and regional level people are allowed have private industry

The two smaller states will be swallowed up in a blink.

a) what's the motive of the the big state? They should be happy they don't hafta rule the crazy insurgent smaller groups

b) we'd still keep forces on standby near the border

More slavery!

errr.... No how about serving our country?? if you serve more han 6 months it'll help you with your next job?

A lunatic scheme - ethanol costs MORE than gasoline.

I doubt that but let's say your right. I won't be if it is abundant and grown everywhere.

Your scheme is a blueprint for deprivation, slavery, suppression of human rights, medical rationing, and economic ruin. And you belong right up there with the "great" idealists of history.

I see you ignored the civil liberties section just to re-enorce your point...

The Ideal Nation

New member