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Windows Chief Leaving Microsoft: Huge Shakeup

The Giant Noodle said:
Ohhhh man. :doh Not this crap AGAIN! I said it before. Windows 8 will be either discontinued or changed drastically in 11 months. THe OS sucks for PCs and any IT guy that wants to bring it in-house should be fired. There is nothing wrong with Windows 7.
Why would you spend time RE-training people to use Windows 8!? Why confuse the hell out of them?!? They are there to do their tasks, NOT learn an OS.
I 100% guarantee Win8 is a freakin' disaster in the workplace. (and it sucks for a home PC too)
Click to expand...

I suppose you thought the same thing when all those businesses and working people had to give up their beepers.
 
Hicup said:
She doesn't need to learn it, all she needs is her facebook, IE, Netflix, and twitter, and news feeds. I'm her IT guy.. LOL

My point is that I'm fairly certain that the MS developers didn't actually test the reactions of real people when turning it on for the first time. Yes a guy like me can learn it, and I did in pretty much 2 hours figured out where they put everything I am used too, but a casual user will have realistically no ****ing idea how to install new hardware, delete files, customize, encrypt, hell you name it, anything outside of pointing (or touching) and clicking on an app tile will be completely foreign to them. :)


Tim-
Click to expand...

Are you saying the casual user doesn't have the ability to use the desktop...and all of its familiar pieces?

Touching and clicking on apps isn't all there is to Win8, as you well know.
 
Hicup said:
Well as someone in the tech sector, I downloaded and installed Win 8 Enterprise on my wifes kitchen computer last night. Before I installed it I did my research and knew about the shortcomings for power users like me. I can tell you that the issues for power desktop users as real and not imagined, and the people involved in the design of this OS should all be shot in the head.

Yes you can do all of the things you can with Windows 7 but NOW you have to take 3, 4, or 5 clicks to do what you used to be able to do in one click??? Huh? Who in their right mind thought that was a good idea? I mean really, WHO made that call?

I called my wife in to test it out, and I was laughing at her as she tried to shut it down. I asked her to open task manager.. ROTFLMAO I said ok babe we need to install the network printer, can you figure out how to do that.. LOL I must admit I was having a good time with it, and watching her, but not in a good way. I then asked her at least pull up the start menu... ROTFLMAO on that one.. She still doesn't know where it is you know why? Because there is NO fricking start menu.. Genuises I tell ya.

Anyway, I saved her and set up her facebook with the cloud, and Netflix, and twitter, showed her where IE was, and also how to shut it down so she and the kids will be ok, but like iPad iOS, with Windows 8 I have a tablet OS on my kitchen desktop without a touchscreen monitor (I might add) and we'll be just fine. Me on the other hand cannot use it for anything remotely attached to being productive. Sorry, I like MS, but they really messed this one up when they practically owned the Business and Enterprise markets. This just might be the nail in that coffen I fear.


Tim-
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These shortcuts are extremely useful...*Win 8*
http://cdn.redmondpie.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/W81.png
 
Mycroft said:
Are you saying the casual user doesn't have the ability to use the desktop...and all of its familiar pieces?

Touching and clicking on apps isn't all there is to Win8, as you well know.
Click to expand...

Exactly, once again, as they did with 7, they added another layer of obstruction to what were long-time stable user commands. Touch is stupid on a desktop and win8 is half-assed designed for the touch market.

I've been with MS since windows 1 and 2 (they fit on a floppy). I was a beta tester for win 3.11 and NT 3.5. This is the windows OS that finally drives me to linux full time.
 
clownboy said:
Exactly, once again, as they did with 7, they added another layer of obstruction to what were long-time stable user commands. Touch is stupid on a desktop and win8 is half-assed designed for the touch market.

I've been with MS since windows 1 and 2 (they fit on a floppy). I was a beta tester for win 3.11 and NT 3.5. This is the windows OS that finally drives me to linux full time.
Click to expand...

Touch, voice and motion are already being used on phones, tablets and now they will come to desktops. It's the future...starting now.

Linux will never amount to anything more than a fragmented niche OS.

shrug...
 
PeteEU said:
Bull****. Windows 8 is superior to Windows 7.. not by much but it is. It is faster, lighter and has advancements that the average user would like. Also it has made the OS much more user friendly.. especially for those that are afraid of technology.
Click to expand...

I found with MS that when they try to make something more user friendly for idiots they make everything that might confuse them into an adventure of finding Waldo or they just no longer include that feature that confuses idiots. I still remember word from a few years ago being the biggest of garbage I have ever dealt with and all because they tried to make it idiot proof.
 
Mycroft said:
Touch, voice and motion are already being used on phones, tablets and now they will come to desktops. It's the future...starting now.

Linux will never amount to anything more than a fragmented niche OS.

shrug...
Click to expand...

Nonsense. Touch, voice, motion have been tried for years on a desktop environment, it just doesn't fit the depth of application and granularity desktop users need. Phones are not the level of computing device necessary for desktop and enterprise use. Touch devices, including phones have a place in the heirarchy, but they are not desktop replacements. Your supposed future is what we used to call vaporware.

MS has increasingly over the years obfuscated the OS from the user (like Apple from the beginning). This is to serve the lowest common denominator. Up until XP and 2003 they had a good balance going. The power user could turn all that obfuscation crap off. Now, less and less so. The thing I hated about Apple from the beginning is that you had to use the OS the way Jobs thought everyone should, and don't look at the man behind the curtain. Now MS has gone that way. I don't need distance from my file system.

Linux is the knowledgeable user's OS, it requires a certain functioning level to operate. So of course the typical user will not be going that way. But MS has changed path. Instead of educating the user, they dumbed down the OS. Wrong direction.

Here's your new mouse:

users.jpg
 
clownboy said:
Nonsense. Touch, voice, motion have been tried for years on a desktop environment, it just doesn't fit the depth of application and granularity desktop users need. Phones are not the level of computing device necessary for desktop and enterprise use. Touch devices, including phones have a place in the heirarchy, but they are not desktop replacements. Your supposed future is what we used to call vaporware.

MS has increasingly over the years obfuscated the OS from the user (like Apple from the beginning). This is to serve the lowest common denominator. Up until XP and 2003 they had a good balance going. The power user could turn all that obfuscation crap off. Now, less and less so. The thing I hated about Apple from the beginning is that you had to use the OS the way Jobs thought everyone should, and don't look at the man behind the curtain. Now MS has gone that way. I don't need distance from my file system.

Linux is the knowledgeable user's OS, it requires a certain functioning level to operate. So of course the typical user will not be going that way. But MS has changed path. Instead of educating the user, they dumbed down the OS. Wrong direction.

Here's your new mouse:
Click to expand...

LOL!!!

Such hyperbole...it's really quite amusing.

Seriously, though, I suggest you learn to progress instead of insisting that everyone stay in your dark ages. Face it...the days of the DOS command line are long gone.
 
Mycroft said:
LOL!!!

Such hyperbole...it's really quite amusing.

Seriously, though, I suggest you learn to progress instead of insisting that everyone stay in your dark ages. Face it...the days of the DOS command line are long gone.
Click to expand...

You mean UNIX command line, DOS was a steaming pile. None of what I wrote was exaggeration and I was one of the first GUI (for Windows) programmers in Portland. I was most happy to see the command line go. Doesn't change the fact that MS has significantly dumbed down their OS to suit the needs of the low knowledge user (where Apple started out).

You want to celebrate that this suits you personally - be my guest.
 
clownboy said:
You mean UNIX command line, DOS was a steaming pile. None of what I wrote was exaggeration and I was one of the first GUI (for Windows) programmers in Portland. I was most happy to see the command line go. Doesn't change the fact that MS has significantly dumbed down their OS to suit the needs of the low knowledge user (where Apple started out).
Click to expand...

Er and what is wrong with dumbing down an operating system.. at least on top, so that more people can use it without having to be nerds?

Linux's biggest failing has always been that it is far too complicated for the average user. OSX is also complicated and even Windows XP and 7 are rather complicated once you get past pressing E for Internet Explorer. It has been the desktop computers achilles heal for 20 years.

One of the reasons iOS became popular (other than the cult like following Apple has and the marketing lies), is that it is extremely simple to use for most basic things. That is what Microsoft has been trying to do for 30 years and will continue to go that way. Windows 8 has just made everything simpler to use for your dad, mom and person who knows nothing about computers. Even Linux distros have gone from command line systems to trying to emulate Windows at all levels.. does not make them easy to use, but at least they are easier to use than they were 10 years ago. And you find a problem with this.. why? Could it be that you are against change of any kind? :)
 
Hicup said:
Thanks, but yeah I already had this. I'm a keyboard shortcut kinda guy.. :)


Tim-
Click to expand...

did MS do away with right click access to help?
You think a 2 hour orientation for a totally different interface is bad?

You think a cohesive standard method of operation from desktop to laptop to tablet to smart phone to tv is not worth investing in?
This is version 1 of a new operating system. MS never gets it right until version 3, but once they do, it becomes the industry standard.
I launched win 286 and win386 and win 3 in Canada. win 3 was a smash hit that needed three releases to work properly but it was theplatform of the future and the apps suite dominated the marketplace. You still cant find a better spreadsheet or productivity app as good as Excel.

Give it a year and things will be a lot different.

BTW, MS has a cadre of psychologists and other professionals that develop interfaces and do all kinds of user testing. You can be sure it was rigourously tested.

After 23 years at microsoft, getting 8 out the door would have tuckered the dude right out. And given he's a multi multi millionaire, there does come a point..... Happened to me and that was only after 5 years (fully vested).
 
PeteEU said:
Er and what is wrong with dumbing down an operating system.. at least on top, so that more people can use it without having to be nerds?
Click to expand...
It's less productive. Like the ribbon. Dumbed down to look prettier and neater but less quickly accessible than the old menu style. Microsoft is innovating for the sake of innovating but going in the wrong direction for productivity. Their new windowing system which they started in 7 is way less accessible than the old XP and Vista style windows on the task bar. Windows now show up under the icon in the task bar which is way less accessible than having open windows in their own bar in the task bar. I think Win 8 will not be good for businesses because live tiles do not appear business-like, they are more of a distraction with colorful tiles everywhere, doesn't look good if you're trying to run a serious business. An employee sets down to work and then reads the news, weather, etc. not good.

I have used Win 8 for a couple weeks now, and I don't use live tiles ever except the occasional reading of headlines. As soon as I boot I head right into the desktop, don't return too live tiles unless I need to shutdown. Thank god they didn't remove the old control panel, probably because there were too many options there too replace, but I bet they would if they could replace it, and they already started too with the settings in the live tiles. Removing the start button, bad enough, but it will be a disaster if they ever remove the control panel.
 
Opteron said:
It's less productive. Like the ribbon. Dumbed down to look prettier and neater but less quickly accessible than the old menu style. Microsoft is innovating for the sake of innovating but going in the wrong direction for productivity. Their new windowing system which they started in 7 is way less accessible than the old XP and Vista style windows on the task bar. Windows now show up under the icon in the task bar which is way less accessible than having open windows in their own bar in the task bar. I think Win 8 will not be good for businesses because live tiles do not appear business-like, they are more of a distraction with colorful tiles everywhere, doesn't look good if you're trying to run a serious business. An employee sets down to work and then reads the news, weather, etc. not good.

I have used Win 8 for a couple weeks now, and I don't use live tiles ever except the occasional reading of headlines. As soon as I boot I head right into the desktop, don't return too live tiles unless I need to shutdown. Thank god they didn't remove the old control panel, probably because there were too many options there too replace, but I bet they would if they could replace it, and they already started too with the settings in the live tiles. Removing the start button, bad enough, but it will be a disaster if they ever remove the control panel.
Click to expand...

I'd suggest you use that app they got for all your cloud storage accounts...but I suspect you don't have any...being all stuck in the past and all.
 
Opteron said:
It's less productive. Like the ribbon. Dumbed down to look prettier and neater but less quickly accessible than the old menu style. Microsoft is innovating for the sake of innovating but going in the wrong direction for productivity. Their new windowing system which they started in 7 is way less accessible than the old XP and Vista style windows on the task bar. Windows now show up under the icon in the task bar which is way less accessible than having open windows in their own bar in the task bar. I think Win 8 will not be good for businesses because live tiles do not appear business-like, they are more of a distraction with colorful tiles everywhere, doesn't look good if you're trying to run a serious business. An employee sets down to work and then reads the news, weather, etc. not good.
Click to expand...

Seriously, business want simplicity since it requires less education for the workers. It is not brain surgery. It is the main reason that most companies have never migrated to the free Linux distros. The reeducation of their workers will take too much time and money.

Also the amount of programs that the average "worker" needs on a given day can most likely be counted on one hand. Setting up your start screen or desktop or whatever you want, to get access to these programs is just as easy as it was in Windows XP and Windows 7. Basically nothing has changed what so ever. I have not delved into the deep inner workings of Windows 8 yet.. security and such yet, but I will wager that it is similar to Windows 7 on many fronts and far far far far superior to that of Windows XP, so I fully expect IT managers can limit what people have access too just as they always have done.

I have used Win 8 for a couple weeks now, and I don't use live tiles ever except the occasional reading of headlines. As soon as I boot I head right into the desktop, don't return too live tiles unless I need to shutdown. Thank god they didn't remove the old control panel, probably because there were too many options there too replace, but I bet they would if they could replace it, and they already started too with the settings in the live tiles. Removing the start button, bad enough, but it will be a disaster if they ever remove the control panel.
Click to expand...

So you are saying they are NOT forcing you to use metro? :) Oh dear! But that is the whole argument of the haters right out the window!
 
Mycroft said:
I'd suggest you use that app they got for all your cloud storage accounts...but I suspect you don't have any...being all stuck in the past and all.
Click to expand...
Ya right, cloud storage, another innovation of the future... You gotta have all the bandwidth to upload stuff and then download it again. Anything over a gig becomes unpractical. Until bandwidth equates with data, it's not very useful. And who's to say no one will go through, search, or sell your files, I think there was some controversy with Google on that.
 
Opteron said:
Ya right, cloud storage, another innovation of the future... You gotta have all the bandwidth to upload stuff and then download it again. Anything over a gig becomes unpractical. Until bandwidth equates with data, it's not very useful. And who's to say no one will go through, search, or sell your files, I think there was some controversy with Google on that.
Click to expand...

Well...I don't use google, so I don't have that issue. Cloud storage works well for me and is very convenient for accessing important files or making files available to others. Sorry you haven't found any uses for it...but maybe you don't have any imagination.
 
PeteEU said:
I mean 16 bit software.. software designed for Windows 98 and before... heck even Windows 2000.



LOL seriously... Windows 7 is miles better than XP on every front and Windows 8 is an improvement on that... especially on older machines.
Click to expand...

32 bit software has been used since dos,and was used inlater windows windows 95 and well in win98.16bit software wasnt the problem with vista and later,it was the fact that win 1.0 through windows me were dos based,and needed dos executables to run.windows 2000 was the first non dos windows,followed by xp.however windows xp held limited backwards compatibility with dos based programs and win 9X and win me programs.
 
Mycroft said:
Well...I don't use google, so I don't have that issue. Cloud storage works well for me and is very convenient for accessing important files or making files available to others. Sorry you haven't found any uses for it...but maybe you don't have any imagination.
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Right, I don't have an imagination because I have no use for cloud storage... Companies such as Microsoft are trying to push cloud storage as the next big thing, probably why they have that skydrive tile in Win 8. Cloud storage is good if you're traveling a lot or if you need to share files with groups, for the average user its not convenient especially with DSL or cable bandwidth. Re-downloading games from Steam takes long enough, never mind trying to re-download your own collection of movies, music, and games.

Windows 8 is unfortunately an effort by Microsoft to push their products like the tablet, Windows Phone, their App store, Skydrive, Bing onto the consumer, that's pretty much the purpose of tiles on a desktop environment. I just had issues with Windows update, it froze and wouldn't proceed. Finally fixed it by following this page, but the other two people who posted had system breaking problems with Windows update. I'm sure there are many other people with a lot of issues with updating, rebooting, installing etc. that aren't yet fixed. Wish Microsoft would focus on making a solid, robust product rather than on UI and marketing.
 
Opteron said:
Right, I don't have an imagination because I have no use for cloud storage... Companies such as Microsoft are trying to push cloud storage as the next big thing, probably why they have that skydrive tile in Win 8. Cloud storage is good if you're traveling a lot or if you need to share files with groups, for the average user its not convenient especially with DSL or cable bandwidth. Re-downloading games from Steam takes long enough, never mind trying to re-download your own collection of movies, music, and games.

Windows 8 is unfortunately an effort by Microsoft to push their products like the tablet, Windows Phone, their App store, Skydrive, Bing onto the consumer, that's pretty much the purpose of tiles on a desktop environment. I just had issues with Windows update, it froze and wouldn't proceed. Finally fixed it by following this page, but the other two people who posted had system breaking problems with Windows update. I'm sure there are many other people with a lot of issues with updating, rebooting, installing etc. that aren't yet fixed. Wish Microsoft would focus on making a solid, robust product rather than on UI and marketing.
Click to expand...

It appears your problems with updating is due to some service or startup item...that is, your software. That sucks. Maybe it was one of those XP things you've been running.

In regards to MS pushing people to their products, you don't have to use them. I don't...except for Skydrive which I've been using for a long time. I like it, though I like Dropbox more. The nice thing is being able to use what I want no matter which device I'm using. For instance, I'll take a picture with my phone...it's automatically uploaded to Dropbox...I can send a link to friends or family...they can download it at their convenience...when I get home I can move it to my storage drive. All very simple and versatile. Also, I have a Win8 app that enables me to use my various cloud storage accounts with one, seamless interface. No browser needed for one or separate program for the other. Quite convenient.

Like I said...imagination.
 
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PeteEU said:
Seriously, business want simplicity since it requires less education for the workers. It is not brain surgery. It is the main reason that most companies have never migrated to the free Linux distros. The reeducation of their workers will take too much time and money.

Also the amount of programs that the average "worker" needs on a given day can most likely be counted on one hand. Setting up your start screen or desktop or whatever you want, to get access to these programs is just as easy as it was in Windows XP and Windows 7. Basically nothing has changed what so ever. I have not delved into the deep inner workings of Windows 8 yet.. security and such yet, but I will wager that it is similar to Windows 7 on many fronts and far far far far superior to that of Windows XP, so I fully expect IT managers can limit what people have access too just as they always have done.



So you are saying they are NOT forcing you to use metro? :) Oh dear! But that is the whole argument of the haters right out the window!
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No its NOT "the whole" arguement. There are quite a few reasons to hate it. The entire interface is crap. So much so they asked the developer to LEAVE. They need to bring back the START button. There is zero reason... ZERO.... to downgrade to Windows 8. Windows 7 interface is far more intuitive.
I keep telling you guys, Windows 8 will not be around in a year unless it is drastically changed. And not because I dont like it. Because 90% of the people out there dont like it!
 
PeteEU said:
Er and what is wrong with dumbing down an operating system.. at least on top, so that more people can use it without having to be nerds?

Linux's biggest failing has always been that it is far too complicated for the average user. OSX is also complicated and even Windows XP and 7 are rather complicated once you get past pressing E for Internet Explorer. It has been the desktop computers achilles heal for 20 years.

One of the reasons iOS became popular (other than the cult like following Apple has and the marketing lies), is that it is extremely simple to use for most basic things. That is what Microsoft has been trying to do for 30 years and will continue to go that way. Windows 8 has just made everything simpler to use for your dad, mom and person who knows nothing about computers. Even Linux distros have gone from command line systems to trying to emulate Windows at all levels.. does not make them easy to use, but at least they are easier to use than they were 10 years ago. And you find a problem with this.. why? Could it be that you are against change of any kind? :)
Click to expand...

Simple answer - what's wrong with it? Nothing, as long as I can turn that crap off. Up until win 7 I could set any element of the GUI to suit the way I work, the way I've spent years working - that's what the enterprise wants, not simplicity, they just don't want to have to retrain employees they've trained for years.

You want a Mom & Pop braindead version so their virtual VCR clock won't always be flashing 12:00, that's what the "Home" versions were all about. Besides, Mom & Pop really don't need a desktop, for the simple tasks they're better with the tablet market.

Btw, until win7 the only GUI element I couldn't customize was the flying paper animation for file transfer.
 
The Giant Noodle said:
:doh Oh god. Yeah Windows 8 is a huge step ahead. I used these things before mice were available for PCs. What a step ahead. :roll:
Windows 8 = HUGE step back for PCs.
Click to expand...

He presented them so those of you who can't figure out how to use Win8 will have something familiar to fall back on.

The fact that these shortcuts exist only indicates that Win8 is Win7...but better.
 
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