[W: #1372][W: #1004] [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

Here a professor indulges in why the South Seceded.

Dr. Donald Livingston discusses the real reasons and elaborates on the Lincoln invasion.

Enjoy all.

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

A neo-Confederate who still tries to defend secession.

Yawn.

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

Robertinfremont said:

Here a professor indulges in why the South Seceded.

Dr. Donald Livingston discusses the real reasons and elaborates on the Lincoln invasion.

Enjoy all.

Click to expand...

Donald Livingston - Wikipedia

“ In 2004, the SPLC characterized Livingston as a neo-Confederate ideologue, in part for his former association with the League of the South, labelled "the premier state sovereignty and secessionist organization;" the League has been classified as a "hate group" by the SPLC.”

League of the South - Wikipedia

“ The League of the South (LS) is a white nationalist, Neo-Confederate, white supremacist organization,[6][7][8][9][10] headquartered in Killen, Alabama, which states that its ultimate goal is "a free and independent Southern republic".[11] The group defines the Southern United States as the states that made up the former Confederacy (Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas, Tennessee and Virginia).[12] It claims to also be a religious and social movement, advocating a return to a more traditionally conservative, Christian-oriented Southern culture.[13]

The movement and its members are allied with the alt-right. The group was part of the neo-Nazi Nationalist Front formerly alongside the National Socialist Movement (NSM), the now defunct Traditionalist Workers Party (TWP) and Vanguard America (VA) since rebranded as Patriot Front. The group participated in the Pikeville rally in Pikeville, Kentucky, the Charlottesville riots/Unite the Right in Charlottesville, Virginia and the White Lives Matter rally in Shelbyville, Tennessee as key organizers in all three events.[14][15] The Southern Poverty Law Center has designated it as a hate group.[16]”

In other words, zero crediblity.

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

I'll watch as much as I can stand, but first I'll ask the question that typically gives the lie to this.

If it wasn't about slavery, why didn't they free the slaves?

This would have given several potentially war winning advantages:

The futures of the newly freed men would be tied directly to the future of the Confederacy. Talk about motivation!

The manpower would have come in handy, since they had the smaller pool to draw recruits from.

Politically, it could have been the tipping point for European intervention, since that was a sticking point for some major European powers.

The very small group of voices calling for this at the time were marginalized.

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

Gimmesometruth said:

A neo-Confederate who still tries to defend secession.

Yawn.

Click to expand...

Well that comes closer than those who claim my posts are over slavery.

Why would I defend secession one can ask?

My reasons are this

1. To allow states to remove themselves from a central government that overpowers them. Like the cop beating the black man, the black is right to defend himself. Even the criminal black deserves protection from cops engaged in beatings.
2. Because this nation is supposed to be free. Free of oppression. Even Democrats protest oppression so why not join me?
3. States were deemed at the time to have the right to secede. It was brought up even in the declaration of independence.
4. Less known but equally important is there were previous incidents of states in the North seceding.

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

If Livingston does not believe that "slavery was the cause of the war," don't bother with him.

And do snicker at the OP.

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

WillyPete said:

I'll watch as much as I can stand, but first I'll ask the question that typically gives the lie to this.

If it wasn't about slavery, why didn't they free the slaves?

This would have given several potentially war winning advantages:

The futures of the newly freed men would be tied directly to the future of the Confederacy. Talk about motivation!

The manpower would have come in handy, since they had the smaller pool to draw recruits from.

Politically, it could have been the tipping point for European intervention, since that was a sticking point for some major European powers.

The very small group of voices calling for this at the time were marginalized.

Click to expand...

In my opinion, the States realized other states of the North had seceded. Short lived, but still they had. And the letters from the South said they wanted slavery preserved yet included a constitutional clause stipulating no slaves can be imported.

Many true scholars actually have read the constitution of the South as I have. I note few posters appear to have read those documents.

Do you know the cost then of a slave? Today a thousand dollars is not chump change. A slave then cost the plantations when buying one $1,000 very often due to bidding up prices. That was then in their dollars. What is a then $1000 amount to right now? Many thousands.

Do you give away valuable property?

Hell if you had to make a purchase today of say $50,000 would you hand it over?

Should the south have used the slaves to fight war? Believe it or not, this was considered to have merit. Keep in mind when Abe the outlaw, invaded, he kept declaring his war had no thing to do with blacks. He used a different excuse to invade VA. And he did not claim it was over Ft. Sumter. He said to put the union back together.

Never has the Sumter caused the war crowd produced documents from Abe the Outlaw he used that as his excuse. wonder why not?

Show me paper saying from Abe he invaded due to Sumter being fired at. Anybody.

One more point to make. Washington had over 300 slaves on his lands. Jefferson came in second place as to slaves. Neither president had an army to keep slaves in line. 300 angry blacks could easily overpower the men on the two estates. When whites went to fight the war, back at home, slaves at home could easily kill the women. but one has to ask, why didn't any of that happen?

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

jamesbyoung said:

If Livingston does not believe that "slavery was the cause of the war," don't bother with him.

And do snicker at the OP.

Click to expand...

What stopped the blacks from overpowering George Washington?

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

Robertinfremont said:

Here a professor indulges in why the South Seceded.

Dr. Donald Livingston discusses the real reasons and elaborates on the Lincoln invasion.

Enjoy all.

Click to expand...

Not even remotely interested in historical revisionism that defends traitorous filth.

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

That question deserves a "snicker."

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

Robertinfremont said:

Well that comes closer than those who claim my posts are over slavery.

Why would I defend secession one can ask?

My reasons are this

1. To allow states to remove themselves from a central government that overpowers them. Like the cop beating the black man, the black is right to defend himself. Even the criminal black deserves protection from cops engaged in beatings.
2. Because this nation is supposed to be free. Free of oppression. Even Democrats protest oppression so why not join me?
3. States were deemed at the time to have the right to secede. It was brought up even in the declaration of independence.
4. Less known but equally important is there were previous incidents of states in the North seceding.

Click to expand...

The nation that's supposed to be free went to war over... wait for it.....

Slavery.

Brilliant.

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

Robertinfremont said:

Well that comes closer than those who claim my posts are over slavery.

Why would I defend secession one can ask?

My reasons are this

1. To allow states to remove themselves from a central government that overpowers them. Like the cop beating the black man, the black is right to defend himself. Even the criminal black deserves protection from cops engaged in beatings.
2. Because this nation is supposed to be free. Free of oppression. Even Democrats protest oppression so why not join me?
3. States were deemed at the time to have the right to secede. It was brought up even in the declaration of independence.
4. Less known but equally important is there were previous incidents of states in the North seceding.

Click to expand...

1. “The criminal black”. Wow, way to display your racism yet again.
2. Claiming “this nation was supposed to be free” and going to war to preserve slavery is mutually exclusive.
3, 4. Provide your exact evidence for northern states seceding and there being a “right to secede”

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

Tigerace117 said:

Donald Livingston - Wikipedia

“ In 2004, the SPLC characterized Livingston as a neo-Confederate ideologue, in part for his former association with the League of the South, labelled "the premier state sovereignty and secessionist organization;" the League has been classified as a "hate group" by the SPLC.”

League of the South - Wikipedia

“ The League of the South (LS) is a white nationalist, Neo-Confederate, white supremacist organization,[6][7][8][9][10] headquartered in Killen, Alabama, which states that its ultimate goal is "a free and independent Southern republic".[11] The group defines the Southern United States as the states that made up the former Confederacy (Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas, Tennessee and Virginia).[12] It claims to also be a religious and social movement, advocating a return to a more traditionally conservative, Christian-oriented Southern culture.[13]

The movement and its members are allied with the alt-right. The group was part of the neo-Nazi Nationalist Front formerly alongside the National Socialist Movement (NSM), the now defunct Traditionalist Workers Party (TWP) and Vanguard America (VA) since rebranded as Patriot Front. The group participated in the Pikeville rally in Pikeville, Kentucky, the Charlottesville riots/Unite the Right in Charlottesville, Virginia and the White Lives Matter rally in Shelbyville, Tennessee as key organizers in all three events.[14][15] The Southern Poverty Law Center has designated it as a hate group.[16]”

In other words, zero crediblity.

Click to expand...

I do not mind pointing out the above poster has zero credibility., When confronted he lies. I am sick of his lies.

He could make points and leave out his lies. But he refuses to stop lying.

So when he says the professor is not approved by the southern poverty law center, he passes blessings on the professor. I add he did not listen to the professor so when that happens, no critic is valid. You do not get away criticizing that you are ignorant of. And the poster has not watched the video.

To all critics, since you refuse to watch it, your point of view is not valid.

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

It was slavery.

/thread

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

Tigerace117 said:

1. “The criminal black”. Wow, way to display your racism yet again.
2. Claiming “this nation was supposed to be free” and going to war to preserve slavery is mutually exclusive.
3, 4. Provide your exact evidence for northern states seceding and there being a “right to secede”

Click to expand...

You deserve no reply. Not with that surly attitude. Wise up and operate like a decent man.

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

Helix said:

It was slavery.

/thread

Click to expand...

The north like the Communists indoctrinated citizens and it is pathetic.

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

Tigerace117 said:

Donald Livingston - Wikipedia

“ In 2004, the SPLC characterized Livingston as a neo-Confederate ideologue, in part for his former association with the League of the South, labelled "the premier state sovereignty and secessionist organization;" the League has been classified as a "hate group" by the SPLC.”

League of the South - Wikipedia

“ The League of the South (LS) is a white nationalist, Neo-Confederate, white supremacist organization,[6][7][8][9][10] headquartered in Killen, Alabama, which states that its ultimate goal is "a free and independent Southern republic".[11] The group defines the Southern United States as the states that made up the former Confederacy (Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas, Tennessee and Virginia).[12] It claims to also be a religious and social movement, advocating a return to a more traditionally conservative, Christian-oriented Southern culture.[13]

The movement and its members are allied with the alt-right. The group was part of the neo-Nazi Nationalist Front formerly alongside the National Socialist Movement (NSM), the now defunct Traditionalist Workers Party (TWP) and Vanguard America (VA) since rebranded as Patriot Front. The group participated in the Pikeville rally in Pikeville, Kentucky, the Charlottesville riots/Unite the Right in Charlottesville, Virginia and the White Lives Matter rally in Shelbyville, Tennessee as key organizers in all three events.[14][15] The Southern Poverty Law Center has designated it as a hate group.[16]”

In other words, zero crediblity.

Click to expand...

Save your Confederate money, boys, the South will rise again!

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

Robertinfremont said:

The north like the Communists indoctrinated citizens and it is pathetic.

Click to expand...

You misspelled liberated. Reconstruction should have lasted a lot longer. Ending it when they did was a mistake.

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

Again, 12 presidents owned slaves.

Some as in the case of George Washington owned more than 300 working at a time. Jefferson had around 250 slaves. Good sized black forces.

What stopped them from overpowering both estates? Grant had a slave. Why did his not overpower his wife? Grant was from the North too.

If abe the outlaw was so great, why did he hang on one day 39 native tribesmen?

Abe himself was in on this too. Abe culled his herd to execute.

Many here think he was an angel. But the man was a devil.

To those who still know nothing of states in the North seceding, learn history. I had to.

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

Helix said:

You misspelled liberated. Reconstruction should have lasted a lot longer. Ending it when they did was a mistake.

Click to expand...

What I find so sad, really pathetic, is trying to discuss history invites insults and taunts. I do not present untrue history. I present things I believe have value.

Note. I only started to watch the video and at the end most likely will find particular things i do not agree with. I need to see his argument it was not over slavery for instance since I think the secession was over slavery. But that is just me. Abe declared over and over his war was not over slavery. I have not called him a liar that his war was not over slavery.

I think posters here however think he lied by saying it was not over slavery.

Abe Lincoln quote

My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.
Abraham Lincoln

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

Nickyjo said:

Save your Confederate money, boys, the South will rise again!

Click to expand...

My major points are not really about the South perse. I consider Slavery to be a side show. Abe Lincoln defined it as a side show. I agree with Abe the outlaw on that.

My main points are we have Democrat party jerks hating on Donald Trump. I say hold on. We had another in Abe the outlaw. At least with trump he has not waged war on states. If the man wages war on states, I will make the case he is evil.

Abe on the sideshow.

My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.
Abraham Lincoln

The irony of that comment by Abe the outlaw is he waged war on the South and hammered the North by jailing them and deporting even a Congressman and removed habeas Corpus and told the Supreme Court to get the hell off his case. Ergo he was an outlaw.

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

Defenders of the Trumpian fascistic right love to gaslight. They can't argue with the facts, so …

People who gaslight someone tend to use specific techniques. These include:

Countering: telling you that you remember something incorrectly
Trivializing: making you feel like your thoughts and feelings don't matter
Withholding: pretending they don't understand what you're saying
Stonewalling: refusing to listen or engage with you in conversation
Blocking: changing the subject
Diverting: questioning the validity of your thoughts
Forgetting: pretending to forget things that happened
Denying: telling you something never happened
Faking compassion: telling you they're doing something harmful for your good
Discrediting: convincing others you're insane or unstable
Reframing: twisting your thoughts, behaviors, and experiences to favor their perspective

Gaslighting Phrases

Certain phrases come up often in relationships where someone is being gaslighted. These phrases and others like them can convince you that your mind isn't trustworthy. If you hear these often when you know deep inside that they're unfair statements, it may be time to seek help:

"I don't want to hear that."
"You need to stop trying to confuse me."
"You're wrong."
"You remember it wrong."
"Where did you get that crazy idea?"
"Your imagination is getting the best of you."
"It didn't happen that way."
"You know I'm right."
"You're too sensitive."
"I only do it because I love you."
"You get angry so easily."
"You're too sensitive."
"I have no idea what you're talking about."
"You're making that up."
"Calm down!"
"You're taking what I said out of context."
"I was only joking."

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

Robertinfremont said:

What I find so sad, really pathetic, is trying to discuss history invites insults and taunts. I do not present untrue history. I present things I believe have value.

Note. I only started to watch the video and at the end most likely will find particular things i do not agree with. I need to see his argument it was not over slavery for instance since I think the secession was over slavery. But that is just me. Abe declared over and over his war was not over slavery. I have not called him a liar that his war was not over slavery.

I think posters here however think he lied by saying it was not over slavery.

Abe Lincoln quote

My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.
Abraham Lincoln

Click to expand...

The south obviously wanted to return to a racist system as quickly as possible, and an extended Reconstruction could have prevented that. But, you know, hindsight and all. Humans aren't tractors.

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

Robertinfremont said:

In my opinion, the States realized other states of the North had seceded. Short lived, but still they had. And the letters from the South said they wanted slavery preserved yet included a constitutional clause stipulating no slaves can be imported.

Click to expand...

Not following you with this. Which "other states of the North" are you referring to?

Do you know the cost then of a slave? Today a thousand dollars is not chump change. A slave then cost the plantations when buying one $1,000 very often due to bidding up prices. That was then in their dollars. What is a then $1000 amount to right now? Many thousands.

Do you give away valuable property?

Hell if you had to make a purchase today of say $50,000 would you hand it over?

Click to expand...

Plenty of people would pay $50k to free a kidnapped human and call it a bargain. Some wouldn't accept a $50k gift, if it consisted of "owning" human beings. Things were different then, but what was right and wrong was the same.

Should the south have used the slaves to fight war? Believe it or not, this was considered to have merit. Keep in mind when Abe the outlaw, invaded, he kept declaring his war had no thing to do with blacks. He used a different excuse to invade VA. And he did not claim it was over Ft. Sumter. He said to put the union back together.
Never has the Sumter caused the war crowd produced documents from Abe the Outlaw he used that as his excuse. wonder why not?

Show me paper saying from Abe he invaded due to Sumter being fired at. Anybody.

Click to expand...

So? Abe reacted to the moves of the Confederacy, and it didn't exactly catch them by surprise, did it?

One more point to make. Washington had over 300 slaves on his lands. Jefferson came in second place as to slaves. Neither president had an army to keep slaves in line. 300 angry blacks could easily overpower the men on the two estates. When whites went to fight the war, back at home, slaves at home could easily kill the women. but one has to ask, why didn't any of that happen?

Click to expand...

Many Federal prisons today don't have outer walls around many areas, just outer markers, and prisoners are allowed to wander free, with the understanding that they will likely be shot dead the instant they cross those markers, and barring this that special teams were just standing by to recapture them.

So why don't all those prisoner's immediately escape?

The answer is the same as those slaves. It's because of what happens next.

The slaves of course had it worse in every possible way. They owned nothing their master didn't permit them. They were effectively in a nation-sized prison, the culture was alien and unfriendly, and anyone offering assistance also put themselves in danger.

It seems clear (and hindsight confirms) that whatever their other reasons or excuses, the Confederacy was far more willing to lose the war than they were to give up slavery.

re: [W:475]The Real Reason the South Seceded by Donald Livingston

Helix said:

You misspelled liberated. Reconstruction should have lasted a lot longer. Ending it when they did was a mistake.

Click to expand...

Jefferson Davis, his cabinet and the Confederate generals should have been executed.