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Why we need less college and more reality?

I learned enough to know that it is the quality of the idea that counts, not who speaks it...so no.
I don't think you're getting the point.
The idea is absurd..
You getting that idea from Tucker ****ing Carlson, is absurd..
Telling us you did is honest <- hey point for you there!
Your sound bite of "wisdom" is too simple to have any deep meaning. Plenty of leaders say stupid stuff, but because they are charismatic leaders, their words carry weight far beyond the quality of what they said.

Maybe one day you'll value higher education over Tucker Clarson's entertaining partisan clap-trap. I'm not holding my breath.
 
I don't think you're getting the point.
The idea is absurd..
You getting that idea from Tucker ****ing Carlson, is absurd..
Telling us you did is honest <- hey point for you there!
Your sound bite of "wisdom" is too simple to have any deep meaning. Plenty of leaders say stupid stuff, but because they are charismatic leaders, their words carry weight far beyond the quality of what they said.

Maybe one day you'll value higher education over Tucker Clarson's entertaining partisan clap-trap. I'm not holding my breath.

I heard Tucker speak this idea with my own ears.....so no.

The Failed University does not represent our values, has no interest in doing so....now that there is BIG IDEA.
 
I heard Tucker speak this idea with my own ears.....so no.

See, that's what I'm talking about, you're missing basic things that just shouldn't be possible if decently educated, even if your primary job is a trade, it's good to stay in school.

That you got the idea from Tucker is not being questioned, I take it as true...I even said you were honest for telling me.
That you get listen to Tucker Carlson to get ideas...that's absurd.
 
See, that's what I'm talking about, you're missing basic things that just shouldn't be possible if decently educated, even if your primary job is a trade, it's good to stay in school.

That you got the idea from Tucker is not being questioned, I take it as true...I even said you were honest for telling me.
That you get listen to Tucker Carlson to get ideas...that's absurd.

Institutions which no longer represent the values of the societies majority and are unwilling to reform to the values of the majority get chopped off at the knees, as the Failed Universities are about to discover.

Stop obsessing about me...that is not healthy.
 
This is a subject I've discussed before with several of my FB friends. My current occupation with the NFTA has me convinced more than ever that vocational/ trades careers are not being emphasized enough in the schools because in my opinion it's always "college this and college that". Has been since even before I was a senior some 32 years ago. And that is doing a disservice to our people. No wonder why the building trades are in such high demand right now-shortage of new apprentices to bring up in the ranks. NFTA is experiencing a driver shortage, as is all student, transit, and motorcoach companies/agencies. For example, even with my class and the next two classes behind me, there won't be enough drivers to cover the extra board for very long. Again, if a 19-21 year old has his/her license, that person can easily turn a 35-40 year career and not be saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in college loan debt and a worthless degree. I'm not knocking college, there are fields that require a degree, but why push it as the end all to a better life?


I certainly was not educated that way. In my high school they made it clear that some are headed to trade school and others are headed to college. All statistics point to college educated people earning more money in their lifetime than non-college people.
 
I certainly was not educated that way. In my high school they made it clear that some are headed to trade school and others are headed to college. All statistics point to college educated people earning more money in their lifetime than non-college people.

Then 'splain that to Master tradesmen earning six figures?
 
Then 'splain that to Master tradesmen earning six figures?

Where did I claim someone could not make that much as a tradesman? Maybe you should have gone to college.
 
Where did I claim someone could not make that much as a tradesman? Maybe you should have gone to college.

I did! Realized it wasn't for me. Followed my passion instead and became a professional driver. I love how you elitist snobs jut thumb your collective noses at real people who have to work for a living. This mentality is why we have skinny jeans and man bun wearing kids who don't know how to fix things.
 
I did! Realized it wasn't for me. Followed my passion instead and became a professional driver. I love how you elitist snobs jut thumb your collective noses at real people who have to work for a living. This mentality is why we have skinny jeans and man bun wearing kids who don't know how to fix things.

I said you should have gone to college because you did not understand what I said. The point is that people who go to college make more money than people who do not. I couldn't care less what you did.
 
The Humanities used to be extremely valuable but as Paglia and Jordan Peterson point out constantly they have been completely wrecked in the service of the New Religion....the New Left.

Tucker Carlson has been going on about this lately as well.

Actually, from someone who works as a professor in the humanities (philosophy), that's not really what has happened. The problem is that universities have generally switched over to a business model, and they form requirements, degree programs, and class offerings on the basis of where enrollment is. And students have, in turn, been conditioned to think that humanities classes are "useless" because they don't help one get a job. This is, in part, understandable with the switch over to loan-based aid in the Nixon years. The humanities are, however, essential to the functioning of a body politic. You may not use what you learned in a philosophy class or a humanities class or a religious studies class on your job. But you will still use it every day of your life, if you actually learned it. But university administrations put a double-bind on humanities professors. They require that most students pass humanities classes, however bad their performance is, and that creates an expectation among students that the knowledge imparted is worthless. So humanities classes often become turnstiles, and the critical thinking they are meant to teach passes by the wayside.

I'm fortunate to work at a university that has mostly avoided this kind of pressure, but it's coming all the same. Most humanities professors I know secretly complain about this all the time. I've had core requirement classes where I've flunked half my students for crappy performance. Plenty of professors aren't able to do that any longer, and they end up passing people who basically spent their time screwing off and not learning how to think.

The "business mindset" that has infected education and basically all of society needs to stop. There's nothing wrong with business just as such, as long as it's constrained to its proper orbit.
 
This is a subject I've discussed before with several of my FB friends. My current occupation with the NFTA has me convinced more than ever that vocational/ trades careers are not being emphasized enough in the schools because in my opinion it's always "college this and college that". Has been since even before I was a senior some 32 years ago. And that is doing a disservice to our people. No wonder why the building trades are in such high demand right now-shortage of new apprentices to bring up in the ranks. NFTA is experiencing a driver shortage, as is all student, transit, and motorcoach companies/agencies. For example, even with my class and the next two classes behind me, there won't be enough drivers to cover the extra board for very long. Again, if a 19-21 year old has his/her license, that person can easily turn a 35-40 year career and not be saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in college loan debt and a worthless degree. I'm not knocking college, there are fields that require a degree, but why push it as the end all to a better life?

Excellent post my friend. I view higher education (for me that includes both high school and college) as one of the biggest economic scams hoisted on the American people. Not only is most of the material/information one learns during this time of little practical value - and available for free - most of it is all virtually forgotten shortly after learning it. Furthermore does someone really need to spend 8 more years sitting in classrooms after just spending 9 years of their early life doing so? The purpose of publicly funded higher education should be to get students in to the workforce in as little time as needed. The fact is that much of the course work in high school and college is a complete wast of time and money.
 
I said you should have gone to college because you did not understand what I said. The point is that people who go to college make more money than people who do not. I couldn't care less what you did.

The stats on that are a bit misleading. The thing is they lump everyone with a degree in one category, which includes people like doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc., (in other words some of the most highly compensated professions) while lumping everyone without a degree in the other category, which includes all the the people at the lowest end of the economic spectrum. So of course it is going to look like just getting any old degree is going to be much more lucrative than not getting a degree. The fact is though there are many non college grads working in trades, running small businesses, working as linemen for the power companies, working for companies like UPS, etc., who are doing just as well or better than many college grads.
 
Actually, from someone who works as a professor in the humanities (philosophy), that's not really what has happened. The problem is that universities have generally switched over to a business model, and they form requirements, degree programs, and class offerings on the basis of where enrollment is. And students have, in turn, been conditioned to think that humanities classes are "useless" because they don't help one get a job. This is, in part, understandable with the switch over to loan-based aid in the Nixon years. The humanities are, however, essential to the functioning of a body politic. You may not use what you learned in a philosophy class or a humanities class or a religious studies class on your job. But you will still use it every day of your life, if you actually learned it. But university administrations put a double-bind on humanities professors. They require that most students pass humanities classes, however bad their performance is, and that creates an expectation among students that the knowledge imparted is worthless. So humanities classes often become turnstiles, and the critical thinking they are meant to teach passes by the wayside.

I'm fortunate to work at a university that has mostly avoided this kind of pressure, but it's coming all the same. Most humanities professors I know secretly complain about this all the time. I've had core requirement classes where I've flunked half my students for crappy performance. Plenty of professors aren't able to do that any longer, and they end up passing people who basically spent their time screwing off and not learning how to think.

The "business mindset" that has infected education and basically all of society needs to stop. There's nothing wrong with business just as such, as long as it's constrained to its proper orbit.

"The humanities are, however, essential to the functioning of a body politic. You may not use what you learned in a philosophy class or a humanities class or a religious studies class on your job. But you will still use it every day of your life, if you actually learned it."


Before I say anything I am a firm believer and proponent that educating oneself is a good thing and that there is value in learning in learning most subject areas. But I would also say that it is not essential to spend nearly 20 years of ones life sitting in classrooms to do so, especially at the cost that many students are paying. Regarding your statement here you are essentially implying that it is vital that everyone in America (I suppose every country also) go to college and take the subjects/classes you mentioned in order to properly function in a "body politic" and in "every day life"? I assume that is what you are saying since you used the word "essential". One of the ironies about this statement is that we actually look at a segment of our society in which this is the case - our government. I'm certain that well over 90% (if not 100%) of our representatives are college graduates many of whom were "pre-law" majors (i.e. humanities/liberal arts). So what has that produced? One of the most disfunctional and divisive institutions in our country.
 
"The humanities are, however, essential to the functioning of a body politic. You may not use what you learned in a philosophy class or a humanities class or a religious studies class on your job. But you will still use it every day of your life, if you actually learned it."


Before I say anything I am a firm believer and proponent that educating oneself is a good thing and that there is value in learning in learning most subject areas. But I would also say that it is not essential to spend nearly 20 years of ones life sitting in classrooms to do so, especially at the cost that many students are paying. Regarding your statement here you are essentially implying that it is vital that everyone in America (I suppose every country also) go to college and take the subjects/classes you mentioned in order to properly function in a "body politic" and in "every day life"? I assume that is what you are saying since you used the word "essential". One of the ironies about this statement is that we actually look at a segment of our society in which this is the case - our government. I'm certain that well over 90% (if not 100%) of our representatives are college graduates many of whom were "pre-law" majors (i.e. humanities/liberal arts). So what has that produced? One of the most disfunctional and divisive institutions in our country.

Four points, the last of which is a kind of conclusion:

1. To clarify: I contend that every person in this country with the intellectual capacity for education of any kind past about 8th grade level receive a grounding in the humanities that is much more robust than that currently required to complete a baccalaureate at most major universities. By "the humanities" I do not mean pre-law, pre-med, business, grammar, math, physics, biology, psychology, sociology, engineering, finance, or other such classes. I mean classes in history, philosophy, literature, the arts, and similar such. I also mean that such education should be systematic. At minimum, students should be required to pass two classes in formal logic (with the second one including examination in S5 modal logic + K semantics, which is as close as we've yet come to formalizing human reason), three in various areas in philosophy, at least one in ethics and one in epistemology or metaphysics, three history classes, at least one in world history, and three classes in liberal studies, including one in literature and one in the history of early modern to contemporary western civilization, and finally at least one class in history and civilization of some marginalized non-western group--Indian, African, South American, Pacific Islander, etc. I would require comprehensive exams, with at least 90% competency, in all of these areas. That is, students should not be allowed to coast through these classes, but should be required to show that they have actually learned the subject matter and can actively and reasonably engage it.

2. Students currently get nowhere near that level of education in most university programs. Indeed, except for the few who major in philosophy, liberal studies, or religious studies, humanist education in the U.S. is basically a joke. There's been a long program of business and government interference in education, much of it oriented toward reducing or eliminating education in the humanities. As a result, university administrations regularly pressure, in various direct and indirect ways, professors to inflate grades and pass as many students as possible. That program is motivated by a belief that education in the humanities is basically an indulgence that has no value in "the real world."

3. Education ought to be publicly supported up through at least a first master's degree, and the administrative overhead in universities should be radically reduced to reduce the costs of education.

4. I think these answer your criticism. The idea that, for example, pre-law graduates have received a proper education in the humanities but have gone on to produce a deeply dysfunctional system is incorrect. They have (almost certainly) not received anything like an adequate education in the humanities, and the results are telling. Similarly, the notion that cost is such an issue for students that they cannot afford to pay for humanist education is true under our current system, but that system is absurd and ought to be changed. An educated society is a strong society, and everyone who benefits from being in a strong society (which is everyone who is in that strong society) ought to pay for those benefits.
 
First of all what you saying here would add at minimum an additional 2 years to everyone's degree program, and potentially 4 years at the pass level you would require. Secondly, as a high school teacher I can definitely say that most people are not hard core academics and either don't have the mental ability, work ethic and/or the temperament to do what you suggest. What percent of high school grads do you think would make it through such a modified degree program?

The last point I'll make is that sitting through classes doesn't make someone a better person or worker.
 
Set up quality level VOCATION AND TECHNICAL program at MINIMAL cost for students.


When we give social and civic respect to these Vocation and Technical centers, we then change the delusion in kids minds, that they are not worthy if they don't have some University Name connected to them, They can be proud to have completed a Vocational or Technical Center, which gives them the same sense of self respect and social respectability that we give to people who over pay University, for a status title. The big difference is, these vocational and technically trained youth, actually know how to do something and can do something with a trained skill to support them.



The degree madness has damaged much....

I've long been an advocate of vocational and technical training.... We need change in the system
 
100% agree, and I'll add my own personal experience to this, for what little it's worth. I was pushed by my parents to work hard in school and go to college for what I was interested in - so I did, and even got a free ride, majored in computer programming, and then pretty much immediately realized that wasn't what i wanted to do, and that i was going to have to move someplace I didn't want to live to pursue the career. I did try for a while to find a job, but didn't have any luck.

So, now I work in manufacturing doing work that any reasonably intelligent high school student could do, making **** money, but i do really enjoy my schedule, and the fact that i don't really have to interact with other human beings much.
 
This is a subject I've discussed before with several of my FB friends. My current occupation with the NFTA has me convinced more than ever that vocational/ trades careers are not being emphasized enough in the schools because in my opinion it's always "college this and college that". Has been since even before I was a senior some 32 years ago. And that is doing a disservice to our people. No wonder why the building trades are in such high demand right now-shortage of new apprentices to bring up in the ranks. NFTA is experiencing a driver shortage, as is all student, transit, and motorcoach companies/agencies. For example, even with my class and the next two classes behind me, there won't be enough drivers to cover the extra board for very long. Again, if a 19-21 year old has his/her license, that person can easily turn a 35-40 year career and not be saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in college loan debt and a worthless degree. I'm not knocking college, there are fields that require a degree, but why push it as the end all to a better life?

They're already pushing for college even at kindergarten now
 
So true!

We need more people learning the trades.

Here in Los Angeles, the powers that be are so proud that they are "forcing" all high school graduates to enroll in college.

It's not that all (even most) graduates want to attend college.

It's about the powers that be wanting to make themselves look good and to getting more money "for the kids."

Of course, the powers that be neglect to report that most of those students eventually leave college without graduating.


It is so sad that millions of children's lives are being ruined by the hypocrisy of our politically correct political climate.
 
Aren’t most of the trades kind of... what is the word...? Oh yeah, irrelevant?

Where is a wood carvers guild?

Yeah, irrelevant until you need... a plumber... an auto mechanic... an electrician... an HVAC tech... a roofer... a carpenter... a brick mason.... I've needed them all. On the other hand, I can't recall the last time I consulted Angie's List looking for someone who majored in the humanities.
 
Yeah, irrelevant until you need... a plumber... an auto mechanic... an electrician... an HVAC tech... a roofer... a carpenter... a brick mason.... I've needed them all. On the other hand, I can't recall the last time I consulted Angie's List looking for someone who majored in the humanities.

Yep, today we had the HVAC guy come over to do the yearly maintenance on our air conditioning unit. The other day, the septic tank guy came to pump out the tank. Later today, my wife took her 350 down to the dealership (we have a 200 mile trip this weekend) to check the tires since the low pressure sensor had lit up. She also took the dogs into the vet for annual shots. Now the Vet, has a DVM degree on top of a college degree, but none of the other guys do, and they all are making good middle class wages.
 
This is a subject I've discussed before with several of my FB friends. My current occupation with the NFTA has me convinced more than ever that vocational/ trades careers are not being emphasized enough in the schools because in my opinion it's always "college this and college that". Has been since even before I was a senior some 32 years ago. And that is doing a disservice to our people. No wonder why the building trades are in such high demand right now-shortage of new apprentices to bring up in the ranks. NFTA is experiencing a driver shortage, as is all student, transit, and motorcoach companies/agencies. For example, even with my class and the next two classes behind me, there won't be enough drivers to cover the extra board for very long. Again, if a 19-21 year old has his/her license, that person can easily turn a 35-40 year career and not be saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in college loan debt and a worthless degree. I'm not knocking college, there are fields that require a degree, but why push it as the end all to a better life?

The Democratic Party's solution to millions of college students graduating to find no job waiting for them - or at least no job justifying their college debts is to increase this to tens of millions of college graduates that can't find a decent job.

The problem spoiled, self-entitled lazyass immature, sheltered punks have with trade schools is that such a career requires working for a living.
 
The Democratic Party's solution to millions of college students graduating to find no job waiting for them - or at least no job justifying their college debts is to increase this to tens of millions of college graduates that can't find a decent job.

The problem spoiled, self-entitled lazyass immature, sheltered punks have with trade schools is that such a career requires working for a living.

Yeah, and now Democrats like Pocahontas want taxpayers to eat hundreds of billions of dollars of debt these people assumed while the suckers who paid their debts get the shaft.
 
Most jobs nowadays that used to required skilled craftsmen to perform manual labor have been rendered obsolete by the assembly line and robotic workers.

I don’t see anyone advertising for their need in apprentices.


It’s college all the way for me.

Really? Got to ask. What housing development was built by robots? Once a house/car is built? Does a robot fix them when repairs are needed? So you have never used an electrician, plumber, or car mechanic?

Since "It’s college all the way for me. " , what course of study do you have a degree in?
 
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