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Why we need less college and more reality?

Rexedgar said:
I am not familiar with the OP, but I agree in earnest that there is too much emphasis placed on a degree, any degree. There is call for people willing to get dirty and sweaty in the trades. There is also better than average money to be made, with minimal schooling debt. There are many degrees that provide a sorry ROI, IMO.
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Back in the 50's every mother told her son to be a lawyer.
Now what do we have? A litigious society where everyone sues everybody over anything.
You know this is true when they have to have signs telling you to not put your hand under a running lawn mower.

Saying you are not a success because you have no college is equally dumb.
I would say the guy who runs & owns an auto body shop in town is more successful than the Medieval Literature major waiting tables or selling cell phones because college prepared them for nothing except reading books and writing about them and left them with thousands in debt.

The rest of the country is not like New York City....despite what TV would like us to believe.
 
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Bassman said:
Even the two year course isn't always necessary. It takes an average of 10 weeks to obtain your Class-A Commercial Driver's License, almost as long for a Class B with Passenger Endorsement.
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and with out any exposure to those pesky new political ideas either
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
I am speaking from my experience: I never encountered any blacksmith schools or carpentry schools.

I chose the college path because in my view there was no obvious alternative
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That's a problem with the US system and it's focus on tertiary degrees. In Aus we have the TAFE system where training for trades is easily accessed.
 
Bassman said:
No, just good old fashioned Anti American Communism wrapped up in a pretty new package.
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so ya you don't like the cost of education and ideas that you don't agree with and that why you want less college exposure for people

your obvious and sick
 
blarg said:
so ya you don't like the cost of education and ideas that you don't agree with and that why you want less college exposure for people

your obvious and sick
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We need to talk about all of this assuming and not listening that you do.

And why you cant be bothered to use punctuation.

DISTURBING!
 
Hawkeye10 said:
We need to talk about all of this assuming and not listening that you do.

And why you cant be bothered to use punctuation.

DISTURBING!
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ya post 54 kinda confirmed the assumption
 
Mach said:
You're reciting partisan clap-trap though.
Our education systems are key to educating our populace. You're convinced yourselves that universities are bad. Just wow. And you have convinced yourself of this because of right wing propaganda (not education)! Crazy.

I have been to 3 colleges and 1 university in my education career, and none felt in any way, shape, or form, like political propaganda. That's outrageously absurd.
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Maybe because you'd been so inculcated in leftist cant by the time you got to those schools you were such a LW droid you just sat in class and imitated a bobble head doll as the professor spewed the latest LW nonsense.



Mach said:
Break down and destroy culture? It's ****ing school
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Nah, they're mostly the left wing version of the CIA rendition sites.

mach said:
It's largely the same subjects, just expanded, that were detailed by philosophers in Ancient Greece, before there was ****ing FOX news! Economics, history, mathematics...these were separated out as areas of study some thousands of years ago, but here you are post enlightenment, in the digital age, claiming universities are bad.
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And everything spun into the "blame America first" mindset that permeates the leftwing world.

mach said:
Wow. I feel we need more education in rural America based on that...
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We definitely need more education, all we're getting now is one-sided brainwashing.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Education does but universities have become instruments of political propaganda and not educational institutions.

It is education meant to break down and destroy culture and force one into a post-modernist way of thinking
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Or has Tucker says "We spend $120K to have them teach our kids to hate us and everything we stand for.....and we say "OK, Whatever".....STAND UP!" .......something like that!
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Or has Tucker says "We spend $120K to have them teach our kids to hate us and everything we stand for.....and we say "OK, Whatever".....STAND UP!" .......something like that!
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and i see the political agenda is not limited to the op i dont like me osme far left bul**** either but maybe there are some things about you worthy of hate
 
blarg said:
and i see the political agenda is not limited to the op i dont like me osme far left bul**** either but maybe there are some things about you worthy of hate
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Tucker is not talking about politics so much as he is talking about decency,,,he is talking about abuse here.
 
Kal'Stang said:
I can't remember which country it is but there is a country which throughout the school years they work with the parents and children and using their own judgements help identify and place children in areas which they are best suited and tailor those children's education towards that. For example if a particular student is really good at math then they will tailor the child's education towards fields that require math. Making refinements as the child gets older and more sure of what they want to be when they are adults. If a student is good in science related studies then they will tailor the child's education towards the sciences. Again, refining the education as the child gets older.

I think maybe this is something that we should be doing here in the US.
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Germany does this. Kids around 5th grade (maybe a little too early) are put on one of three paths, basic trades, advanced trades and college. Everyone who leaves German high school either has a qualified trade and a job lined up or is going to college.

Bassman said:
I'd much rather spend that 10-20 years paying down a mortgage than paying off a college loan, donchathank?
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This points more to the failures of American society and government. College has become so unaffordable that people who otherwise would want to go and are capable of going can't because they can't afford the astronomical cost. Most other western countries don't have this problem, not nearly to the same degree. In Germany it's based purely on merit who goes to college, not who can afford it, and all trade schools and colleges are tuition free.

Your primary argument against college has been the cost when the cost is arbitrarily and unnecessarily high. Clearly not everyone should go to college but we have a fundamental problem.

PleasantValley said:
Back in the 50's every mother told her son to be a lawyer.
Now what do we have? A litigious society where everyone sues everybody over anything.
You know this is true when they have to have signs telling you to not put your hand under a running lawn mower.

Saying you are not a success because you have no college is equally dumb.
I would say the guy who runs & owns an auto body shop in town is more successful than the Medieval Literature major waiting tables or selling cell phones because college prepared them for nothing except reading books and writing about them and left them with thousands in debt.

The rest of the country is not like New York City....despite what TV would like us to believe.
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This is completely ignorant. You're pretending that a significant number of people that go to college are waiting tables. The fact remains that more and more jobs require college education and people with college degrees earn about a million dollars more over their lives than people without.

Clearly not everyone needs to go to college, but pretending most people have pointless liberal arts degrees and can't find proper jobs is nonsense. The average degreed person is doing waaay better than the average person without.
 
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Look around your upscale neighborhoods today.Electricians and plumbers and drywall men live there.
 
gulfman said:
Look around your upscale neighborhoods today.Electricians and plumbers and drywall men live there.
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I think you are partly correct in that the guys who own the businesses who are those people certainly do if they manage their business correctly. I think many of their crews pretty much live in working class neighborhoods. We have a guy who does periodic work for us (kitchen & bath remodel, plumbing and wiring tasks, sump pump replacement, etc) and he owns a business which employs about four other men full time and a few occasional part timers as needed. He lives in a nice home in a nice suburb. The guys on his crew - from what i know in talking with several of them over the years - live in suburban communities that are more blue collar.

I do enthusiastically agree that more kids need to go into the skilled trades.
 
we need college / post secondary training. we all benefit from a highly educated society.
 
Bullseye said:
Maybe because you'd been so inculcated in leftist cant by the time you got to those schools you were such a LW droid you just sat in class and imitated a bobble head doll as the professor spewed the latest LW nonsense.
Nah, they're mostly the left wing version of the CIA rendition sites.
And everything spun into the "blame America first" mindset that permeates the leftwing world.
We definitely need more education, all we're getting now is one-sided brainwashing.
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LW Droid, CIA, leftwing world? You do realize you and EMN are exhibiting clear signs of being brainwashed into a rabid anti-left worldview, going off in a thread about education, with partisan nonsense?
While simultaneously blaming the education system for partisan nonsense?

Again, I think a good education reduces a lot of these symptoms and would make people a little more resilient to such ludicrous notions.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Right now the average ideological split in colleges amongst faculty is 23 to 1 in favor of leftists. I’ve had professors in college (yes I’ve been to college) who are atheist evangelists, they teach stuff that’s outright false (like the smear campaign against Christopher Columbus) there’s now an effort to smear Sir Winston Churchill in the same way by claiming he’s guilty of genocide due to the Bengal famine. I’ve had professors give me failing grades on well researched and sourced papers I wrote because I didn’t come to a pro-leftist conclusion. Don’t try this stuff. I’ve seen it first hand. You’re a leftist so obviously you see this all as just fine
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I don't believe a word of it. If you had a crappy teacher, get another one, it's college, you're an adult at that point and you have choices.
If your entire school is crappy, consider moving.

Planning out which educational institution you attend is part of people an adult in a free market. Suggesting that you just suffer with poor education, and it has helped turned you into a bitter partisan who now opposes college/universities based on this absurd partisan generalization, is sad. I feel for you. Clearly you threw the baby out with the bath water.
 
gulfman said:
Look around your upscale neighborhoods today.Electricians and plumbers and drywall men live there.
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Statistics disagree, in wealthier neighbourhoods those with at least bachelor's education are most common and some of the ultra-wealthy neighbourhoods, that increases to a master's. The ones who make it there are those who manage other trades people.
 
Bassman said:
This is a subject I've discussed before with several of my FB friends. My current occupation with the NFTA has me convinced more than ever that vocational/ trades careers are not being emphasized enough in the schools because in my opinion it's always "college this and college that". Has been since even before I was a senior some 32 years ago. And that is doing a disservice to our people. No wonder why the building trades are in such high demand right now-shortage of new apprentices to bring up in the ranks. NFTA is experiencing a driver shortage, as is all student, transit, and motorcoach companies/agencies. For example, even with my class and the next two classes behind me, there won't be enough drivers to cover the extra board for very long. Again, if a 19-21 year old has his/her license, that person can easily turn a 35-40 year career and not be saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in college loan debt and a worthless degree. I'm not knocking college, there are fields that require a degree, but why push it as the end all to a better life?
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I agree that trying to shove a bunch of square pegs into round holes doesn't make sense and that there are and ought to be multiple ways to a vocation. But let's get real: there's not a 40-year career to be had in driving for a kid today.

What the generation(s) coming up will need, even more so than any prior generation, is versality. The days of working for one employer for a lifetime are pretty much gone, and the days of working even in the same economic sector for an entire career may not be the norm for those about to enter the workforce either. The economy and job market of 20 years from now aren't knowable, though we can certainly guess as to which jobs technology is most likely to render obsolete.

I don't know that we have a good plan or system for how we're going to ensure we're matching the workforce's skills to society's needs and ensuring that economic opportunity is widely available, particularly as change accelerates. But I would agree that the medieval model for higher ed we default to today probably isn't it. Certainly not in its current incarnation.
 
mike2810 said:
You must be self sufficient. No need for a plumber, electrician, auto mechanic, HVAC, general contractor, etc.
The US started to fall behind when many high schools dropped industrial arts programs like auto shop. We will always need a good mechanic or builder.
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We didn't fall behind because of that, we fell behind because we didn't do it sooner.

The U.S. competes globally with other high performing nations, and a number of enormous, developing nations. They get to leap-frog because they have access to technology we (and many others in europe and all over), had to develop the hard way.

We're not competing with them for HVAC, auto-mechanics, electricians, plumbers, or truck drivers*. By encouraging people passively or actively to not pursue the jobs of tomorrow, on the competitive edge, we risk falling behind competitively abroad. It may not affect you this year, but decades from now, these things matter.

I hired some girls from India that told us point blank, they had two options for education in their family - electrical engineer or computer science. Meanwhile, billy-bob likes to work with his hands and gets lured into a shop class as a career, so we import her to work a job that makes 2x as much? That's girls no less who traditionally aren't in those fields (changing).

Of course we always need people who do those things, but there are plenty of people who can fill those gaps. They are not in crisis for lack of applicants and if they are, we find ways to overcome that.
Meanwhile, areas like health care, are projected to be understaffed for the foreseeable future, millions of research opportunities for longer, healthier lives, and technology is key driver in economic growth, the big cycles of economic change that cause healthy friction/changes in our economy.

I've never had trouble finding HVAC, plumbing, etc. I have had trouble finding cures to various diseases, I've hit ceilings on technological advancements...those are the frontiers we need to be pushing because if we don't, someone else will, and we'll take a back seat over time on the international stage. That's a broad stroke, but I think you can see where I'm coming from.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Or has Tucker says "We spend $120K to have them teach our kids to hate us and everything we stand for.....and we say "OK, Whatever".....STAND UP!" .......something like that!
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Reciting what you heard form a partisan entertainer? Good gods, your posting is the poster child for someone who missed out on that education.
 
Bassman said:
This is a subject I've discussed before with several of my FB friends. My current occupation with the NFTA has me convinced more than ever that vocational/ trades careers are not being emphasized enough in the schools because in my opinion it's always "college this and college that". Has been since even before I was a senior some 32 years ago. And that is doing a disservice to our people. No wonder why the building trades are in such high demand right now-shortage of new apprentices to bring up in the ranks. NFTA is experiencing a driver shortage, as is all student, transit, and motorcoach companies/agencies. For example, even with my class and the next two classes behind me, there won't be enough drivers to cover the extra board for very long. Again, if a 19-21 year old has his/her license, that person can easily turn a 35-40 year career and not be saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in college loan debt and a worthless degree. I'm not knocking college, there are fields that require a degree, but why push it as the end all to a better life?
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College isn't for everyone. College isn't for some people who go to college. These days it seems as if many people go to college for the wrong reasons. That being said the world is extremely complex when compared to 40 or 50 years ago.

We can get into the structure of grade school education which is currently ineffective. In fact that early education is one of the first things that needs to be addressed; structure, curriculum, etc. It has always amazed me that parents for the most part are not involved in their children's educational systems. Go to a school board meeting and see. Unless there is a hot topic on the agenda. You'll easily find a place to sit.

How can we address college without addressing grade school education?

This isn't the place for the discussion but ultimately I would recommend tuition free post secondary education for all qualified applicants. I'm also a big fan of liberal arts. There is nothing wrong with having a 4 year degree and doing skilled or even manual labor as long as you enjoy your education and your work.
 
Mach said:
LW Droid, CIA, leftwing world? You do realize you and EMN are exhibiting clear signs of being brainwashed into a rabid anti-left worldview, going off in a thread about education, with partisan nonsense?
While simultaneously blaming the education system for partisan nonsense?

Again, I think a good education reduces a lot of these symptoms and would make people a little more resilient to such ludicrous notions.
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Didn't work for you. :lamo
 
Mach said:
Reciting what you heard form a partisan entertainer? Good gods, your posting is the poster child for someone who missed out on that education.
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I learned enough to know that it is the quality of the idea that counts, not who speaks it...so no.
 
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