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Why we need less college and more reality?

Manc Skipper said:
Education shows an individual new ways to think about things and extends them as a fuller more rounded person if done right. This anti-intellectual drive to drag everyone down to a level is a relatively new sickness.
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Huh? No one is being "anti-anything". Having new ways to think about how the hell I'm going to pay my student loans isn't as enlightening as you think.
 
Manc Skipper said:
Education shows an individual new ways to think about things and extends them as a fuller more rounded person if done right. This anti-intellectual drive to drag everyone down to a level is a relatively new sickness.
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Problem is this "personal fulfillment" mentality cannot be superior to vocational training. A person with a BA in Art History would be hard pressed to find a job in the general public.
 
Bullseye said:
Huh? No one is being "anti-anything". Having new ways to think about how the hell I'm going to pay my student loans isn't as enlightening as you think.
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I'd much rather spend that 10-20 years paying down a mortgage than paying off a college loan, donchathank?
 
Manc Skipper said:
Education shows an individual new ways to think about things and extends them as a fuller more rounded person if done right. This anti-intellectual drive to drag everyone down to a level is a relatively new sickness.
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I don’t think everyone is capable of benefiting by two or four years of expensive schooling. I have a good friend who sat by while his son picked anthropology, because his current and now long gone girl friend was interested in the topic. He never finished the required curriculum and now is laboring at who knows what.......everyone can’t sit in climate controlled offices and push buttons.....
 
Mach said:
Truck driving is not something I would recommend anyone shoot for who is that young, especially considering we're going to have AI driven vehicles soon.
It's not a bad fall-back, but it's tough on the body, and on a family life, from what I hear. If someone is drawn to it, that's different, and they can make decent pay.

I think everyone should get a higher education, even if it's just for fun while they learn a trade. Community colleges are often absurdly cheap, easily afforded paying out of pocket even. You don't have to go in debt necessarily to afford college. If you go to a local college and do really well, you might also get scholarships or justify taking out a loan to go to a more prestigious school, all sorts of ways you can play it.

Trades often grown into sole proprietorships, and having a little background knowledge in finance, some good math skills, exposure to other subjects that get you thinking outside your comfort zone...I think it's a good thing to do even if you're gonna do a trade.

Or just part-time college/night classes, maybe a 1 or 2-year certificate, that's cool too. Anything is better than nothing in many cases, even if your grades are poor, the environment is pretty good with teachers, counselors, and other students looking to start careers, etc, often in your own age group. I think it's something to take advantage of personally. Everyone should aim for a well-rounded education in the liberal arts on top of their chosen career or field of study.

You only get exposure to some tiny fraction of career choices and disciplines without college/university. I use to hire right out of 3 local community colleges into a trade-like technical job. Not a one of them would have ever had the opportunity had they not been there.

We've invested lots of money into those institutions, avail yourself of that investment! And if you flunk out, who cares, take classes that interest you and forget the grade. But if you go that route, do it at local colleges that are cheap :)
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I couldn't agree more!

In post #18 above, I describe my proposal for publicly funded Community College for both trade & university bound students, if you're interested. Even if self-paid, Community Colleges are a killer deal, and for most students they also work very well for a 2+2 university degree.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
I am speaking from my experience: I never encountered any blacksmith schools or carpentry schools.

I chose the college path because in my view there was no obvious alternative
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Job Corps

I went to Job Corps. Unfortunately I also wasted away my chance with it. Something I'll always regret.
 
Bassman said:
Even the two year course isn't always necessary. It takes an average of 10 weeks to obtain your Class-A Commercial Driver's License, almost as long for a Class B with Passenger Endorsement.
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Yes, but that's a very specific instance. Having access to Community Colleges vocational training opens-up other fields like electrician, electronic tech, HVAC, CAD-CAM, PLCs, etc. Everyone has their own desires and likes, including possible entrepreneurial desires.

Also if I remember correctly, you have a union behind you. Most trades today do not, so one has to pick their possible employment opportunities very carefully. while I did not discourage my kids from the trades, I did advised my kids to first get a university degree - which I am willing to pay for them. I also strongly advised them that if they do chose to go into a trade, they go with the intentions of working for themselves (owning their business), even if that requires an initial period of learning their trade on an employer's dime.
 
Chomsky said:
Yes, but that's a very specific instance. Having access to Community Colleges vocational training opens-up other fields like electrician, electronic tech, HVAC, CAD-CAM, PLCs, etc. Everyone has their own desires and likes, including possible entrepreneurial desires.

Also if I remember correctly, you have a union behind you. Most trades today do not, so one has to pick their possible employment opportunities very carefully. while I did not discourage my kids from the trades, I did advised my kids to first get a university degree - which I am willing to pay for them. I also strongly advised them that if they do chose to go into a trade, they go with the intentions of working for themselves (owning their business), even if that requires an initial period of learning their trade on an employer's dime.
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Even those fields above don't require CC vocational training. In fact, the Trade Unions have much more thorough 5 year apprenticeship programs that pay the apprentice through to their Journeymen's rate. I'd much rather see that than abstract concepts and minimal hands on at a Voc. center.
 
Bassman said:
Even the two year course isn't always necessary. It takes an average of 10 weeks to obtain your Class-A Commercial Driver's License, almost as long for a Class B with Passenger Endorsement.
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Sorry for the second reply to this, but I wanted to add:

You realize Community Colleges offer programs, certificates, and classes of various lengths, not only just two year associate degrees - right? Including shorter stuff like your 10 week program?

That's their beauty.
 
Kal'Stang said:
I can't remember which country it is but there is a country which throughout the school years they work with the parents and children and using their own judgements help identify and place children in areas which they are best suited and tailor those children's education towards that. For example if a particular student is really good at math then they will tailor the child's education towards fields that require math. Making refinements as the child gets older and more sure of what they want to be when they are adults. If a student is good in science related studies then they will tailor the child's education towards the sciences. Again, refining the education as the child gets older.

I think maybe this is something that we should be doing here in the US.
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Sounds German?
 
Chomsky said:
Sorry for the second reply to this, but I wanted to add:

You realize Community Colleges offer programs, certificates, and classes of various lengths, not only just two year associate degrees - right? Including shorter stuff like your 10 week program?

That's their beauty.
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Only thing is: They would not have the facilities, especially if they were based in a Downtown urban setting, to facilitate Tractor-Trailer or even straight frame and bus training.
 
Bassman said:
Even those fields above don't require CC vocational training. In fact, the Trade Unions have much more thorough 5 year apprenticeship programs that pay the apprentice through to their Journeymen's rate. I'd much rather see that than abstract concepts and minimal hands on at a Voc. center.
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That's fair. But union apprenticeships (at least by me) are highly selective and very limited. In addition, entrance is also often political. Union programs do nothing for the multitude that can't get in the union (or may not want to work in a union shop).

And things like Cad-Cam are not union based training, even if one believes they otherwise have easy access to union entry in other trades.
 
Bassman said:
Only thing is: They would not have the facilities, especially if they were based in a Downtown urban setting, to facilitate Tractor-Trailer or even straight frame and bus training.
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You know, I'm getting the feeling you really believe your way is the only way, and you're being myopic of the multitudes that will not follow your exact specific plan. Enjoy your path, and hopefully it brings you what you desire in life.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Aren’t most of the trades kind of... what is the word...? Oh yeah, irrelevant?

Where is a wood carvers guild?
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The brotherhood of carpenters? They do ok, their members average 45K a year.
 
I agree that more people need to consider trade schools or similar and they should be funded as such but I find it often an excuse to make university education less accessible, something only those with the best marks or money should have. All levels of education should be attainable for all, it works for many European countries, the investment and access does not have to mutually exclusive.
 
Manc Skipper said:
Education shows an individual new ways to think about things and extends them as a fuller more rounded person if done right. This anti-intellectual drive to drag everyone down to a level is a relatively new sickness.
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Education does but universities have become instruments of political propaganda and not educational institutions.

It is education meant to break down and destroy culture and force one into a post-modernist way of thinking
 
Carjosse said:
I agree that more people need to consider trade schools or similar and they should be funded as such but I find it often an excuse to make university education less accessible, something only those with the best marks or money should have. All levels of education should be attainable for all, it works for many European countries, the investment and access does not have to mutually exclusive.
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What’s wrong with that? Money is actually a pretty good barrier to have, if universities had to be completely privately funded then people with high intelligence would find a way to pay or have someone else pay. Also universities would have to set prices affordable in the market place, and would have to politically moderate, and would cut unnecessary programs and administrative positions
 
EMNofSeattle said:
What’s wrong with that? Money is actually a pretty good barrier to have, if universities had to be completely privately funded then people with high intelligence would find a way to pay or have someone else pay. Also universities would have to set prices affordable in the market place, and would have to politically moderate, and would cut unnecessary programs and administrative positions
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Because there are people whose skills are not necessarily exceptional but are much better served in non-trade careers. You need average accountants as much as you need car mechanics. The trades would have no market to serve without your perfectly average office workers. Also if more enter the trades the money earned for those in trades will decrease, you need a balance and that balance requires more HR or marketing professionals than welders.

Like I am not very exceptional, never earned a scholarship, but I know my skills are much better served being in tech consulting than a car mechanic or truck driver. I am not cut out for physical work that requires getting my hands dirty and that goes for many.
 
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Carjosse said:
Because there are people whose skills are not necessarily exceptional but are much better served in non-trade careers. You need average accountants as much as you need car mechanics. The trades would have no market to serve without your perfectly average office workers. Also if more enter the trades the money earned for those in trades will decrease, you need a balance and that balance requires more HR or marketing professionals than welders.
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This can be managed by the free market. If there’s not enough accountants then demand for them will increase.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Education does but universities have become instruments of political propaganda and not educational institutions.
It is education meant to break down and destroy culture and force one into a post-modernist way of thinking
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You're reciting partisan clap-trap though.
Our education systems are key to educating our populace. You're convinced yourselves that universities are bad. Just wow. And you have convinced yourself of this because of right wing propaganda (not education)! Crazy.

I have been to 3 colleges and 1 university in my education career, and none felt in any way, shape, or form, like political propaganda. That's outrageously absurd.
Break down and destroy culture? It's ****ing school! It's largely the same subjects, just expanded, that were detailed by philosophers in Ancient Greece, before there was ****ing FOX news! Economics, history, mathematics...these were separated out as areas of study some thousands of years ago, but here you are post enlightenment, in the digital age, claiming universities are bad.

Wow. I feel we need more education in rural America based on that...
 
Mach said:
You're reciting partisan clap-trap though.
Our education systems are key to educating our populace. You're convinced yourselves that universities are bad. Just wow. And you have convinced yourself of this because of right wing propaganda (not education)! Crazy.

I have been to 3 colleges and 1 university in my education career, and none felt in any way, shape, or form, like political propaganda. That's outrageously absurd.
Break down and destroy culture? It's ****ing school! It's largely the same subjects, just expanded, that were detailed by philosophers in Ancient Greece, before there was ****ing FOX news! Economics, history, mathematics...these were separated out as areas of study some thousands of years ago, but here you are post enlightenment, in the digital age, claiming universities are bad.

Wow. I feel we need more education in rural America based on that...
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Right now the average ideological split in colleges amongst faculty is 23 to 1 in favor of leftists. I’ve had professors in college (yes I’ve been to college) who are atheist evangelists, they teach stuff that’s outright false (like the smear campaign against Christopher Columbus) there’s now an effort to smear Sir Winston Churchill in the same way by claiming he’s guilty of genocide due to the Bengal famine. I’ve had professors give me failing grades on well researched and sourced papers I wrote because I didn’t come to a pro-leftist conclusion. Don’t try this stuff. I’ve seen it first hand. You’re a leftist so obviously you see this all as just fine


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Aren’t most of the trades kind of... what is the word...? Oh yeah, irrelevant?

Where is a wood carvers guild?
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You must be self sufficient. No need for a plumber, electrician, auto mechanic, HVAC, general contractor, etc.

The US started to fall behind when many high schools dropped industrial arts programs like auto shop. We will always need a good mechanic or builder.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Right now the average ideological split in colleges amongst faculty is 23 to 1 in favor of leftists. I’ve had professors in college (yes I’ve been to college) who are atheist evangelists, they teach stuff that’s outright false (like the smear campaign against Christopher Columbus) there’s now an effort to smear Sir Winston Churchill in the same way by claiming he’s guilty of genocide due to the Bengal famine. I’ve had professors give me failing grades on well researched and sourced papers I wrote because I didn’t come to a pro-leftist conclusion. Don’t try this stuff. I’ve seen it first hand. You’re a leftist so obviously you see this all as just fine


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I have a feeling that you just hate people who disagree with your own views and those papers that you failed were filled with personal bias and poor sources. I don't understand why the religion of your professor matters.

And I have had the exact opposite experience, similar to Mach. My economics professor was an advisor to Ralph Klein, the father of hardcore Canadian fiscal Conservatism. The only time I have had professors get political is when discussing political risk for businesses, and even then it stayed mostly confined to business. Even from that context Trump and those with similar views are generally hated, he has created a massive amount of political risk for companies around the world. It is not some grand Leftist take over.
 
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