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Would William F Buckley be a Democrat in 2018?

I really try to stay away from the drop in books of current events. They are written to fast and have a short active lifespan. The book on the right are written at the 5th grade level and the books on the left are written at the 10th grade level. It is the same when you watch them on TV. The reason why it has become more polarization, is the low level of grade level it is sent to the public. Buckley, was not interested with people following him without a high school education.



Goldwater became more mellow after the collapse of the Nixon Administration.



The problem with the two party system in America is clear and present. Both parties are looking at their uneducated voters as the driving force of their party. The left, are looking at there Spanish speaking communities, and there African American communities that live in a urban community with a willful poor grade school education forced onto them by the rural communities of the state. The right, are looking at there rural communities that have no interested in higher culture of urban communities. Plan to live in a community in decline were they are unwilling to leave. Willfully decide to have a poor school district because you do not want a brain drain of students leaving the community and never coming back. More people leaving, devalues there home and they are not going to pay higher taxes to see people leave and nobody interested in their home.

American, is on a declining curve.

For the most part, I'd say you're right on. Some people call it white flight. I seen it with Atlanta which is around 25 miles north of me. It's more than that though. Atlanta has always been a one party town. I'm talking about the city of Atlanta, not what is known as the Atlanta metro area. But the mindset has always been higher taxes to pass things on to their voter base. Taxes and regulations.

Atlanta hit its peak of around 500,000 in 1970 and since has declined to around 420,000 today. The richer whites began to take flight out of Atlanta shortly after 1970 followed by the middle income whites. Then beginning in 1990, the richer blacks also joined the exodus pretty much leaving those who reside within the city of Atlanta the poorer ones. In other words the tax base regardless of race or religion, the well to do, have been fleeing Atlanta for a long time. Atlanta can't even afford to repair and replace a water system that is well over 100 years old.

The suburbs around Atlanta are doing quite well. Most because of lower taxes and regulations. Atlanta schools are the poorest in the state. Education and money wise. The suburbs also have the better schools.
 
For the most part, I'd say you're right on. Some people call it white flight. I seen it with Atlanta which is around 25 miles north of me. It's more than that though. Atlanta has always been a one party town. I'm talking about the city of Atlanta, not what is known as the Atlanta metro area. But the mindset has always been higher taxes to pass things on to their voter base. Taxes and regulations.

Atlanta hit its peak of around 500,000 in 1970 and since has declined to around 420,000 today. The richer whites began to take flight out of Atlanta shortly after 1970 followed by the middle income whites. Then beginning in 1990, the richer blacks also joined the exodus pretty much leaving those who reside within the city of Atlanta the poorer ones. In other words the tax base regardless of race or religion, the well to do, have been fleeing Atlanta for a long time. Atlanta can't even afford to repair and replace a water system that is well over 100 years old.

The suburbs around Atlanta are doing quite well. Most because of lower taxes and regulations. Atlanta schools are the poorest in the state. Education and money wise. The suburbs also have the better schools.

My childhood was in the state of Michigan, and during the 1980's and beyond -- there is a term called brain drain. You get a college education in Michigan and you leave the state after you get your degree. The state is not even keeping up with population growth. Have been asked would you move back, my feeling, it would be moving backwards. The biggest drain on the state is the city of Detroit. Have watched a program were the city is turning parts of the city back into farmland. Michigan produces a great deal of wheat and corn with there farmland. Seeing cornfields in a city of the largest city of the state is just to weird for me.
 
My childhood was in the state of Michigan, and during the 1980's and beyond -- there is a term called brain drain. You get a college education in Michigan and you leave the state after you get your degree. The state is not even keeping up with population growth. Have been asked would you move back, my feeling, it would be moving backwards. The biggest drain on the state is the city of Detroit. Have watched a program were the city is turning parts of the city back into farmland. Michigan produces a great deal of wheat and corn with there farmland. Seeing cornfields in a city of the largest city of the state is just to weird for me.

As an old farm boy I have always wondered where all the food will come from once the farm land is turned into suburbs, asphalt and concrete. Atlanta is in Fulton county, growing up Fulton was half farmland. Then the county to the south Clayton, became more or less suburbs and what was a county of small towns and farms, turned into basically suburbs of Atlanta, no farms left. Henry county further south is now what I would determine half rural and half suburbs of Atlanta. That's a lot of farmland lost.

Who knows what the impact on the environment is or was? Cornfields in Detroit, that is almost enough to get me up there to take a gander. If it wasn't for the hybrid seeds these days, there is no way we could be feeding all these people.
 
Would William F Buckley be a Democrat in 2018?

During my childhood I really spent a great deal of time studying the ideology of William F Buckley. I really feel if he was alive today, he would be a Democrat because the conservative movement he championed has left left him for super nationalism were he never supported. And, a president that only cares about his ego and other negative lifestyle. Buckley was over educated for the common conservative of our era. Buckley was really interested with educated members of the left. Buckley never spent time winning over the uneducated conservatives. Buckley, never decided to build scandals with a house of cards.

He'd be a Never Trumper...I doubt he would go completely over to the other side.

It's hard going over. Few people have the moral fortitude to walk away from everything they thought they believed in just because their party now scapegoats Muslims, Mexicans, Blacks, Gays, Trans, outspoken women, and anyone who thinks gun control is a good idea, while now promoting the ass-kissing of Russians, ***** grabbing married men, and hush money laundering schemes.

Oh, wait. That should be an easy call.
 
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As an old farm boy I have always wondered where all the food will come from once the farm land is turned into suburbs, asphalt and concrete. Atlanta is in Fulton county, growing up Fulton was half farmland. Then the county to the south Clayton, became more or less suburbs and what was a county of small towns and farms, turned into basically suburbs of Atlanta, no farms left. Henry county further south is now what I would determine half rural and half suburbs of Atlanta. That's a lot of farmland lost.

Who knows what the impact on the environment is or was? Cornfields in Detroit, that is almost enough to get me up there to take a gander. If it wasn't for the hybrid seeds these days, there is no way we could be feeding all these people.

Let us all come together to praise Dr. Norman Borlaug, the Father of the Green Revolution: Building better plants - Norman Borlaug and the Green Revolution
 
He'd be a Never Trumper...I doubt he would go completely over to the other side.

It's hard going over. Few people have the moral fortitude to walk away from everything they thought they believed in just because their party now scapegoats Muslims, Mexicans, Blacks, Gays, Trans, outspoken women, and anyone who thinks gun control is a good idea, while now promoting the ass-kissing of Russians, ***** grabbing married men, and hush money laundering schemes.

Oh, wait. That should be an easy call.

You forgot the John Birch Society are back in power at C-PAC 2018
 
You forgot the John Birch Society are back in power at C-PAC 2018

Unbelievable, but true. I read that this morning and just shook my head.
 
I'm not so sure. He was a fan of Joe McCarthy, he thought Brown vs Board of Education was the worst scotus ruling ever, he opposed both the 1964 Civil Rights Act, and the 1965 Voting Rights Act, and defended both Franco and Pinochet. And we are just getting started. He was cultured, funny, and more erudite than anyone had a right to be. To say that he was better educated than the common Conservative of our era is an understatement. But I think it's hard to deny that he shared many if not most of the views of the RW knuckledraggers of 2018. He was just able to put an urbane and civilised veneer on them.

I would only change one small bit. I'd say he shared some of the views of the extremists, not many. As a member of the elite, he had little use for their paranoia and conspiracy theories, the Nativism or their misperception of economics.

But other than that quibble, best post in the tread.
 
Atheist 2020:

A very interesting thread this. Thanks for starting it. A fascinating speculative read. I loved watching Firing Line on PBS even if I wanted to reach through the screen and throttle Mr. Buckley Jr. on occasions for his pompous pronouncements and self-serving tangents when discussions with able guests were not going as he planned. He was politically ecumenical in his willingness to seriously talk and debate with others of different political leaning and that I think might be an unforgivable sin in the minds of many political hardliners today from both major parties.

Had he survived until today, I do not think Mr. Buckley Jr. would have gravitated towards the Democratic Party in recent years. Rather, I think that he would have remained a Republican and fought like hell to put the party back on a more traditional and far less populist course. I think he would have been a political foe to much of the religious right despite being a devout and highly conservative Catholic who opposed the Vatican II reforms and I suspect he would also have vigorously opposed the nativism (despite being strongly against multiculturalism) and economic nationalism which the Republicans are mired in at the moment.

I don't think he would have dared to call himself a libertarian despite clear leanings towards more traditional libertarian traditions. The morphing of some branches of modern libertarianism into extreme right-wing insularity would have angered him immensely I think.

Despite being a giant in the Conservative movement and a very sharp mind to boot, I reckon he would more likely face being purged from political relevance within the party by modern day Republicans then capitulating to them and quitting the party. He would die with his political boots on and then when ousted he would likely snipe at modern-day Republicans from an editorial position of some sort until silenced or discredited somehow.

Had he lived past 2008 I think he might have despaired for both Republicanism and Conservatism in the present day.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Would William F Buckley be a Democrat in 2018?

During my childhood I really spent a great deal of time studying the ideology of William F Buckley. I really feel if he was alive today, he would be a Democrat because the conservative movement he championed has left left him for super nationalism were he never supported. And, a president that only cares about his ego and other negative lifestyle. Buckley was over educated for the common conservative of our era. Buckley was really interested with educated members of the left. Buckley never spent time winning over the uneducated conservatives. Buckley, never decided to build scandals with a house of cards.

Buckley would be a never Trumper.

Ever read his piece referencing Trump almost 20 years ago? Talk about prolific

https://www.redstate.com/jaycaruso/...f.-buckley-wrote-donald-trump-eerily-accurate

Look for the narcissist. The most obvious target in today’s lineup is, of course, Donald Trump. When he looks at a glass, he is mesmerized by its reflection. If Donald Trump were shaped a little differently, he would compete for Miss America. But whatever the depths of self-enchantment, the demagogue has to say something. So what does Trump say? That he is a successful businessman and that that is what America needs in the Oval Office. There is some plausibility in this, though not much. The greatest deeds of American Presidents — midwifing the new republic; freeing the slaves; harnessing the energies and vision needed to win the Cold War — had little to do with a bottom line.
 
Would William F Buckley be a Democrat in 2018?

More interesting: would Abraham Lincoln?

If either one of them grew up as young men in today's society the answer is an unequivocal, yes. But then again that's likely true of many disgusting Trump voters today as well. You could argue that Ronald Reagan would be a Democrat today. We already know both Barbra and George H.W. Bush voted for Hillary Clinton. I'd wager that Bush 43 did as well, but I haven't heard that confirmed. Yet we see that millions of people who voted for them and once thought of them as great leaders have now become even more hateful and ignorant. They can't accept what their side has become. In their old age tribalism and resistance to change is all that matters.

As people get older they get to a point where they think they've figured everything out, and they just kind of hunker down and close their minds off to new ideas. Even if their general philosophy on life may flatly contradict many of their current political positions getting to them to admit to that reality is borderline impossible. They've spent their entire lives believing certain things were true and they've based enormous chunks of their lives upon those assumptions. To admit in their later years that many of their assumptions about life were dead wrong is just to difficult.

I firmly believe that many if not most of Trump's older baby boomer voters that were initially attracted to people like Buckley or Reagan would absolutely be liberals if they were born in the '80s or '90s rather than the '50s and '60s. But trying to help a 60 or 70-year-old Reagan supporter understand all the obvious flaws and contradictions in modern Republican ideas is virtually impossible. They've been on that team for too long and simply can't handle the idea that they might have been fighting for evil all this time.
 
Buckley would be a never Trumper.

Ever read his piece referencing Trump almost 20 years ago? Talk about prolific

True, but Lindsay Grahm had a lot of nasty things to say about Trump during the primary when he was going up against Jeb Bush as well. Seeing him win, and then deliver tax cuts and supreme court justices has radically changed his tune. Many of the so-called Never Trumpers like Romney lightly speak out from time to time, but then turn around and say they'll do things like vote for a wall.

It thinks it's another thing that comes along with old age. You get to a point where you just want to win. When you're young an ideological you want the perfect candidate who is exactly what you're looking for. If you don't get it you say **** this and vote the third party and make them pay for it hoping that you'll get a better candidate later. You have a long life ahead of you and you can play in the future. As you get older you recognize the importance of winning. Even if you don't love everything about a candidate you're not going to sacrifice four years to a hated opponent just to fight an internal war.
 
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True, but Lindsay Grahm had a lot of nasty things to say about Trump during the primary when he was going up against Jeb Bush as well. Seeing him win, and then deliver tax cuts and supreme court justices has radically changed his tune. Many of the so-called Never Trumpers like Romney lightly speak out from time to time, but then turn around and say they'll do things like vote for a wall.

Right, but like Steve Schmidt and Max Boot, Buckley wouldnt have primaries to worry about.
 
I'm not so sure. He was a fan of Joe McCarthy, he thought Brown vs Board of Education was the worst scotus ruling ever, he opposed both the 1964 Civil Rights Act, and the 1965 Voting Rights Act, and defended both Franco and Pinochet. And we are just getting started. He was cultured, funny, and more erudite than anyone had a right to be. To say that he was better educated than the common Conservative of our era is an understatement. But I think it's hard to deny that he shared many if not most of the views of the RW knuckledraggers of 2018. He was just able to put an urbane and civilised veneer on them.

Touche'
 
Right, but like Steve Schmidt and Max Boot, Buckley wouldnt have primaries to worry about.

Heh heh, funny you should mention PRIMARIES.

GOP committee passes resolution to cancel Republican primary due to Trump’s ‘effective presidency’

roflmao.gif

So if this passes, not even another conservative is allowed to even CHALLENGE Trump.
Is this democracy, or something else?
Smells rotten to me, like some kind of fascist takeover.
 
Would William F Buckley be a Democrat in 2018?

During my childhood I really spent a great deal of time studying the ideology of William F Buckley. I really feel if he was alive today, he would be a Democrat because the conservative movement he championed has left left him for super nationalism were he never supported. And, a president that only cares about his ego and other negative lifestyle. Buckley was over educated for the common conservative of our era. Buckley was really interested with educated members of the left. Buckley never spent time winning over the uneducated conservatives. Buckley, never decided to build scandals with a house of cards.



You know I had forgotten all about him. He shaped much of the dialogue in the late 60's and 70's, and even impacted positively on the peace movement, forcing them to put some controls on what was happening.

Whether he would be a Democrat today is at question. From what I have read most political choices in the US are based on what your parents supported, especially in the right. Buckley was raised a conservative and would likely remain one simply by tradition.

However, logic might have prevailed, what I recall was he was incredibly logical and I doubt he would support much of what is being pushed as conservatism today. If anything he was an Eisenhower conservative, whose time has come and gone - the last decent president.
 
By the way, if and when Trump finally does file his taxes, they'll be reviewed by IRS staff who haven't been getting a paycheck. :lamo
 
I guess the same could be said of JFK on the other side of the ledger. Would he considered a liberal democrat today? Would he support Ms. Warren who has his seat in the senate, doubt it.

Totally different times.

I disagree, although Warren has made a couple of public gaffes, particularly her DNA battle, which was utterly stupid.
Either Kennedy (JFK or RFK) would have urged her to ignore Trump's taunts altogether.

So, if your question of support boils down to "endorsement", I think the both of them would have adopted a "wait and see" attitude and if Liz's numbers proved winnable, they probably would have decided to back her.

Now, if you're asking who the both of them would have preferred from today's stable, I suspect they would have picked Sherrod Brown over Liz Warren in a hot second.
 
Would William F Buckley be a Democrat in 2018?

During my childhood I really spent a great deal of time studying the ideology of William F Buckley. I really feel if he was alive today, he would be a Democrat because the conservative movement he championed has left left him for super nationalism were he never supported. And, a president that only cares about his ego and other negative lifestyle. Buckley was over educated for the common conservative of our era. Buckley was really interested with educated members of the left. Buckley never spent time winning over the uneducated conservatives. Buckley, never decided to build scandals with a house of cards.

You must have been a very young child because clearly you didn't understand the conservative Mr. Buckley. Where to begin?

First, Buckley was an old-fashioned aristocratic conservative forged during an era in which American society was relatively stable with low immigration rates and a melting pot of more or less white ethnics with blacks as the only significantly sized minority, and when separate "identity politics" for women was nearly non-existent. As such his conservatism was Burkeian reaction to mass democracy and the faceless mass man. Buckley's beliefs arose out of the belief that voluntary society is an organic entity whose stability and common values arise from evolution by shared experience, not revolution or top down dictates. To that end, for him conservatism arose from America's religious roots and the best values of Western Civilization, its respect for decentralized community and local government, its reliance on free market and voluntary relationships. Why Buckley started out as a sort of patrician, a member of the Nockian elite living in an age of rude and the lowest common denominator of democratic "mass man", but in time he grew to trust the common man far more than intellectual and social elites. (Hence his famous quip about his rather being ruled by the first few thousands names in the NY telephone book than any groups of ivy league academics).

Second, Buckley's specific policy prescriptions and values are almost 100 percent in opposition to contemporary Democratic party values. He was a strong anti-communist, cold war supporter, and believer in a strong national defense. And while he rejected 'de jure' segregation he also believed the 'de facto' segregation from free choice to be utterly sensible - as such he was also an opponent of busing. He was against the great society (and even questioned social security), supported Goldwater, thought Nixon to be too liberal domestically, and opposed the welfare state (and I assume Medicare). The only "liberalism" he demonstrated was in his nod to libertarianism, believing that marijuana should be decriminalized, free speech mostly protected (against the fairness doctrine), and supported giving Panama control of the canal.

Last, Buckley's politics didn't change. He had a special relationship with Rush Limbaugh, criticized George Bush Jr. for being temperamentally conservative but not "a conservative", and was a life long defender of ideological conservatism. To be sure, he didn't like Trump styled populism or the sort of John Birch nationalism (and paleo conservatism) that tended to seep around the edges of the Republican party, but there is no reason to suppose he would be a Democrat - if anything, much like George Will, he would choose a third course (as his brother did in getting elected to the Senate under the "conservative party").

Sadly, your op, in spite of your readings, demonstrates how little you understood Buckley, which for someone who became a socialist is not unusual.
 
So you think WFB would be a Democrat do you? Here is some of his good advice for many folks in today's Democratic "progressive" party:

"Back in the thirties we were told we must collectivize the nation because the people were so poor. Now we are told we must collectivize the nation because the people are so rich."

"There is an inverse relationship between reliance on the state and self-reliance."

"Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views."

"I would like to electrocute everyone who uses the word 'fair' in connection with income tax policies."

"Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive."

"I would rather be governed by the first 2000 people in the Manhattan phone book than the entire faculty of Harvard."

"Conservatives should be adamant about the need for the reappearance of Judeo-Christianity in the public square."

"Democracy can itself be as tyrannical as a dictatorship, since it is the extent, not the source, of government power that impinges on freedom."

"What would happen if the Communists occupied the Sahara? Answer: Nothing—for 50 years. Then there would be a shortage of sand."

"Liberals don’t care what you do so long as it’s compulsory."

"It isn't that the socialists desire, really, to own the steel companies, it is that they desire that the people who owned the steel companies should cease to own them. One part is envy, but a much more important part is resentment..."

No, WFB would not be a Democrat.
 
Glad you talked about George Will, because he left the Republican party. True, he had issues to hold up during the 1950's and 1960's and into the 1970's and he defended his old style. Still, he would look at Trump as the 1950's vision of America to pick leadership of a foreign head of state. This time around Russia has picked a weak president that does not care about Europe. Trump talks about leaving NATO and surrender to the wars we have in the Middle East.

He could join a 3rd party but they cannot win a national election. Second, 3rd parties keep electing Republicans and going 3rd party would elect Trump. Therefore, he would join the Democrat party because he would be a void going into the 2020 presidential election.
 
Glad you talked about George Will, because he left the Republican party. True, he had issues to hold up during the 1950's and 1960's and into the 1970's and he defended his old style. Still, he would look at Trump as the 1950's vision of America to pick leadership of a foreign head of state. This time around Russia has picked a weak president that does not care about Europe. Trump talks about leaving NATO and surrender to the wars we have in the Middle East.

He could join a 3rd party but they cannot win a national election. Second, 3rd parties keep electing Republicans and going 3rd party would elect Trump. Therefore, he would join the Democrat party because he would be a void going into the 2020 presidential election.
I wouldn't count on Will joining the Dems. Will is a CONSERVATIVE, not a Republican.
 
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