The end of vegetarianism, or not?

The only argument i agree with from vegetarians is that the meat industry is cruelty to animals and understand those who are vegetarians on that basis.

That it is also not very good use of land, can be a environmental hazard and has quite a few morally dubious practices.

But within 5 years it may be possible to purchase meat that is completely lab grown.

So is it a case that technology may just have killed the only good arguments vegetarians have for their lifestyle choice.

Or is there still more to it?


Team wants to sell lab grown meat in five years - BBC News

Peter Verstrate said: "I feel extremely excited about the prospect of this product being on sale. And I am confident that when it is offered as an alternative to meat that increasing numbers of people will find it hard not to buy our product for ethical reasons".
The lab-grown burger was developed by Prof Mark Post at his laboratory in Maastricht University, The Netherlands.....The burger is made from stem-cells: the templates from which specialised tissue such as nerve or skin cells develop.

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soylentgreen said:

The only argument i agree with from vegetarians is that the meat industry is cruelty to animals and understand those who are vegetarians on that basis.

That it is also not very good use of land, can be a environmental hazard and has quite a few morally dubious practices.

But within 5 years it may be possible to purchase meat that is completely lab grown.

So is it a case that technology may just have killed the only good arguments vegetarians have for their lifestyle choice.

Or is there still more to it?


Team wants to sell lab grown meat in five years - BBC News

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I am not quite a vegetarian. Haven't been able to quite give up poultry.

The reasons I am a quasi-vegetarian:
1. The cruelty aspect (and just the killing of animals to eat them);
2. Health (beef causes cancer; eating meat generally leads to lowered health; no anti-oxidants and such; cholesterol);
3. It's not a good use of land in a world that has shrinking land for production of food;
4. Cost. Meat costs more that veggies or fruits or grains.

So lab meat wouldn't fix all those reasons. Besides, once you lose the taste for flesh, it's gone. At least my taste for beef, pork, etc., is gone. I have no desire to eat it, and don't find it appetizing or tempting.

soylentgreen said:

The only argument i agree with from vegetarians is that the meat industry is cruelty to animals and understand those who are vegetarians on that basis.

That it is also not very good use of land, can be a environmental hazard and has quite a few morally dubious practices.

But within 5 years it may be possible to purchase meat that is completely lab grown.

So is it a case that technology may just have killed the only good arguments vegetarians have for their lifestyle choice.

Or is there still more to it?


Team wants to sell lab grown meat in five years - BBC News

Click to expand...

No more moo moos on the lawn?

JumpinJack said:

I am not quite a vegetarian. Haven't been able to quite give up poultry.

The reasons I am a quasi-vegetarian:
1. The cruelty aspect (and just the killing of animals to eat them);
2. Health (beef causes cancer; eating meat generally leads to lowered health; no anti-oxidants and such; cholesterol);
3. It's not a good use of land in a world that has shrinking land for production of food;
4. Cost. Meat costs more that veggies or fruits or grains.

So lab meat wouldn't fix all those reasons. Besides, once you lose the taste for flesh, it's gone. At least my taste for beef, pork, etc., is gone. I have no desire to eat it, and don't find it appetizing or tempting.

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1. I agree with the cruelty, but not so much on the level of just killing them to eat.
It is more about things like putting live chicks through grinders to dispose of them that i see as a cruelty of the meat industry. Sorry to pick out chickens for you.
https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ee6_1391310852&safe_mode=off
2. Is only a factor of poor dietry habit of eating to much meat and not balancing your diet. Vegetarians can have the same problem if they too do not balance their diet properly.
3. That is completely untrue. Just another bit of propaganda. The world is in a position where it produces more food than ever before to the point where thousands of tons of food are thrown away simply because it is more profitable to do so.
4. Again, cost factors are manipulated to increase profit rather than a true reflection of the cost.

That is true. I was lucky in that my mother knew how to cook meat. I never realised just what plain meat tasted like until the first time i went to friends house and had dinner there with only salt and pepper to garnish the meat. I was appalled to find out what meat does take like when not garnished..

joG said:

No more moo moos on the lawn?

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I have eaten dog. Don't knock it till you try it.

soylentgreen said:

The only argument i agree with from vegetarians is that the meat industry is cruelty to animals and understand those who are vegetarians on that basis.

That it is also not very good use of land, can be a environmental hazard and has quite a few morally dubious practices.

But within 5 years it may be possible to purchase meat that is completely lab grown.

So is it a case that technology may just have killed the only good arguments vegetarians have for their lifestyle choice.

Or is there still more to it?

Basically


Team wants to sell lab grown meat in five years - BBC News

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There's more to it.

Basically, all plant and animal life on earth exists to be eaten by another plant or animal.

As far as humane, man is by far the most humane of all the top predators. Many predators capture and eat from the rear as most animals defend front. A painful way to go. None are concerned with instant kill methods.

I doubt that test tube meat will replace real meat in my lifetime. When it does it will probably be created by using living catalysts.

The jury is still out there on the benefits of eating meat vs not eating.

History has clearly shown that a diversified diet of meat and vegetables, grains fruit, nuts, roots, etc as well as cooking of food has allowed the current species of man to become the dominant animal on the planet. All purely vegetarian versions of man have never developed a large brain and have gone extinct.

The last I read evidence has shown man has been cooking and eating (both meat and vegetables etc) for close to a million years. The higher nutritional value of meat and the cooking of vegetables has given man the leisure time needed to develop our larger brain. Our larger brain clearly the most important factor of our dominance of the planet.

I don't think eating meat is a problem. I think eating anything to excess is a problem. Drink too much water and you will die.

jimbo said:

There's more to it.

Basically, all plant and animal life on earth exists to be eaten by another plant or animal.

As far as humane, man is by far the most humane of all the top predators. Many predators capture and eat from the rear as most animals defend front. A painful way to go. None are concerned with instant kill methods.

I doubt that test tube meat will replace real meat in my lifetime. When it does it will probably be created by using living catalysts.

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There is a natural cruelty to killing an animal which is why i have no problem with the idea of killing an animal to eat. However the cruelty such as shown in the video clip of live chicks being fed in to a shredder simply because the chicken industry is run in such a way as to create an unnecessary cruelty is not a good thing.

Yes, artificial meat will start from a live source. The one they are now saying might be ready within 5 years from now comes from stem cells of a cow. But that is where it stops. A few stem cells to start the procedure and after that simply cultivating the vats of meat it produces. No live animals involved.
Can a vegetarian reason their position on the sentimental value of a few stem cells?

PIPEWRENCH said:

The jury is still out there on the benefits of eating meat vs not eating.

History has clearly shown that a diversified diet of meat and vegetables, grains fruit, nuts, roots, etc as well as cooking of food has allowed the current species of man to become the dominant animal on the planet. All purely vegetarian versions of man have never developed a large brain and have gone extinct.

The last I read evidence has shown man has been cooking and eating (both meat and vegetables etc) for close to a million years. The higher nutritional value of meat and the cooking of vegetables has given man the leisure time needed to develop our larger brain. Our larger brain clearly the most important factor of our dominance of the planet.

I don't think eating meat is a problem. I think eating anything to excess is a problem. Drink too much water and you will die.

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Agreed it is about having a healthy diet that is what counts. Vegetarians can not claim meat itself is unhealthy they can only comment on the quantities of it being consumed.

soylentgreen said:

1. I agree with the cruelty, but not so much on the level of just killing them to eat.
It is more about things like putting live chicks through grinders to dispose of them that i see as a cruelty of the meat industry. Sorry to pick out chickens for you.
https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ee6_1391310852&safe_mode=off
2. Is only a factor of poor dietry habit of eating to much meat and not balancing your diet. Vegetarians can have the same problem if they too do not balance their diet properly.
3. That is completely untrue. Just another bit of propaganda. The world is in a position where it produces more food than ever before to the point where thousands of tons of food are thrown away simply because it is more profitable to do so.
4. Again, cost factors are manipulated to increase profit rather than a true reflection of the cost.

That is true. I was lucky in that my mother knew how to cook meat. I never realised just what plain meat tasted like until the first time i went to friends house and had dinner there with only salt and pepper to garnish the meat. I was appalled to find out what meat does take like when not garnished..

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Re beef...no, it's not the amount that causes cancer. Like all toxic things, amount does matter at some point (can you get away with smoking 2 cigs a day w/less chance of cancer? I think so.). Beef causes cancer. Period. Just like smoking does and other things do. So yeah, you can get away with less risk if you eat just a few bites a day, but you're still eating a food that causes cancer.

I don't hate beef. Just stating a fact. People love beef and try to explain away things or deny things, just like people who partake of other dangerous substances do. I know about that, being a former smoker (and a former beef eater).

Re good use of land, it's true that raising beef is one of hte poorest uses of land to produce food, and one of the costliest. It takes quite a bit of grazing land to raise a relatively small amount of food. And it destroys the natural environment. The forests in more than a couple of large areas of the world have been destroyed and turned to prairie or desert because of cutting down trees to graze cattle.

Re cost, yes, meat costs more per serving than veggies & fruits. It's the least economical way to eat. Being a frugal annie, I've researched this til I'm blue in the face. If I were to advise someone with limited money to feed a family, the first thing I'd tell them is to cut out meat and instead to use eggs and cheese as substitutes, and use a lot of uncooked pasta, as well as canned & frozen veggies & fruit (fresh is too expensive, and the canned & frozen has more antioxidants & vitamins, anyway). If a person can find some cheaper cuts of meats on a good sale (canned or fresh), that is probably fine for a special occasion...or if REALLY cheap, okay for the regular food budget that month.

You wanna eat cheap....eat whole grain pasta, breads, rice, frozen or canned veggies & fruits, with a few eggs (get 'em on special) and cheese (get it on special...it freezes).

soylentgreen said:

There is a natural cruelty to killing an animal which is why i have no problem with the idea of killing an animal to eat. However the cruelty such as shown in the video clip of live chicks being fed in to a shredder simply because the chicken industry is run in such a way as to create an unnecessary cruelty is not a good thing.

Yes, artificial meat will start from a live source. The one they are now saying might be ready within 5 years from now comes from stem cells of a cow. But that is where it stops. A few stem cells to start the procedure and after that simply cultivating the vats of meat it produces. No live animals involved.
Can a vegetarian reason their position on the sentimental value of a few stem cells?

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At some point there may be some meat like substance developed. In my view, it will have the same relationship to prime aged steak has Velveeta has to cheese or margarine has to butter. Kinda sorta but no cigar.

I'm vegan. I think the whole lab grown meat thing is great and I hope they succeed. But I wouldn't eat it. Back when I first gave up meat I craved it for a couple weeks but then that craving disappeared. I have zero desire to eat meat. Regardless of where it comes from the thought of the texture and mouthfeel of it grosses me out now. But then even when I was a meat eater I rarely had it as the main part of the meal. I was never into steaks, ribs or porkchops, for example.

Everything about my life, particularly health wise, improved greatly when I went vegan. I'm not evangelical about it though. It takes some study to learn how to put together a healthy vegan diet and not everyone has the ability, will or time to do that. And some people just don't handle it well physically. For some, like me, it is great. For others, not so much.

JumpinJack said:

Re beef...no, it's not the amount that causes cancer. Like all toxic things, amount does matter at some point (can you get away with smoking 2 cigs a day w/less chance of cancer? I think so.). Beef causes cancer. Period. Just like smoking does and other things do. So yeah, you can get away with less risk if you eat just a few bites a day, but you're still eating a food that causes cancer.

I don't hate beef. Just stating a fact. People love beef and try to explain away things or deny things, just like people who partake of other dangerous substances do. I know about that, being a former smoker (and a former beef eater).

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You are going to have to validate that theory for me.

https://www.cancercouncil.com.au/21639/cancer-information/cancer-risk-and-prevention/healthy-weight-diet-and-exercise/meat-and-cancer/

Lean red meat can be an important source of iron, zinc, vitamin B12 and protein. In terms of cancer risk there is no reason to cut meat completely from your diet, but there are steps you can take to reduce your risk.
.....Meat may affect cancer risk because of chemicals formed during digestion that have been found to damage the cells that line the bowel. Other likely factors include the fat content, and the way it is processed or cooked; or because big meat eaters miss out on other protective foods such as fruit and vegetables or wholegrain cereals.

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I would argue that the more likely cause is the diet of eating to much meat and not enough of the other necessary foods.


As for canacer, it is the old joke of everything causes cancer.

BrewerBob said:

I'm vegan. I think the whole lab grown meat thing is great and I hope they succeed. But I wouldn't eat it. Back when I first gave up meat I craved it for a couple weeks but then that craving disappeared. I have zero desire to eat meat. Regardless of where it comes from the thought of the texture and mouthfeel of it grosses me out now. But then even when I was a meat eater I rarely had it as the main part of the meal. I was never into steaks, ribs or porkchops, for example.

Everything about my life, particularly health wise, improved greatly when I went vegan. I'm not evangelical about it though. It takes some study to learn how to put together a healthy vegan diet and not everyone has the ability, will or time to do that. And some people just don't handle it well physically. For some, like me, it is great. For others, not so much.

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That would be the point i am trying for here. If artificial meat comes into existence then the only real argument a vegetarian has is their own personal preference.

The argument then becomes what do we do with the meat industry. Keep it and simply ignore the cruelty it inflicts on animals so that a human can make a profit. Or attempt to ban it on the grounds humane action.

soylentgreen said:

You are going to have to validate that theory for me.

https://www.cancercouncil.com.au/21639/cancer-information/cancer-risk-and-prevention/healthy-weight-diet-and-exercise/meat-and-cancer/


I would argue that the more likely cause is the diet of eating to much meat and not enough of the other necessary foods.


As for canacer, it is the old joke of everything causes cancer.

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I didn't say everything causes cancer, did I?

That's an old debate trick, used by people losing a debate. You represent that the other person said something they did not, and you proceed to prove it's false.

Yes, beef causes cancer. But you're in denial, so no proof will suffice for you. So be it. It's a free world. Eat up. And continue to read about all the cancers that people are getting, and how people are so alarmed because they didn't smoke or whatever. But they often eat beef.

I don't know, meat grown in a lab could bring up a whole other set of ethical issues, nevermind the fact it just does not sound appetizing in the least.

jimbo said:

At some point there may be some meat like substance developed. In my view, it will have the same relationship to prime aged steak has Velveeta has to cheese or margarine has to butter. Kinda sorta but no cigar.

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I am open to waiting to see. And i can start another thread on the eating of insects. Millions of tons of good protein going to waste there. A burger made of insect meat will be another interesting taste sensation.

And i have eaten huhu grubs which are best consumed while still alive.

JumpinJack said:

I didn't say everything causes cancer, did I?

That's an old debate trick, used by people losing a debate. You represent that the other person said something they did not, and you proceed to prove it's false.

Yes, beef causes cancer. But you're in denial, so no proof will suffice for you. So be it. It's a free world. Eat up. And continue to read about all the cancers that people are getting, and how people are so alarmed because they didn't smoke or whatever. But they often eat beef.

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I did say it was an old joke even though it does have some truth to it.

As for causing cancer although i agree it can that does not necessarily mean it will. It is not proven that simply eating it will cause cancer. It is shown that a diet that is not balanced and where to much meat is eaten will lead to cancer.

And i gave you a link to back my words. All you are doing is insisting you are right.

Geoist said:

I don't know, meat grown in a lab could bring up a whole other set of ethical issues,

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Such as? The ethical considerations of using live animals for food are gone so what replaces them?

nevermind the fact it just does not sound appetizing in the least.

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I am going to take a bet that your mother completely ignored that argument when serving out your share of the broccoli at dinner time.

JumpinJack said:

I didn't say everything causes cancer, did I?

That's an old debate trick, used by people losing a debate. You represent that the other person said something they did not, and you proceed to prove it's false.

Yes, beef causes cancer. But you're in denial, so no proof will suffice for you. So be it. It's a free world. Eat up. And continue to read about all the cancers that people are getting, and how people are so alarmed because they didn't smoke or whatever. But they often eat beef.

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On the other other hand, his link did have the point that it could be because of not having a balanced diet of the fruits/vegetable that provide the roughage and it's a matter of balance in the diet. That is not a known quality. However, staying away from red meat does help with other health issues too.

I'm not anti-vegetarianism, but I'm also not a vegetarian

soylentgreen said:

The only argument i agree with from vegetarians is that the meat industry is cruelty to animals and understand those who are vegetarians on that basis.

That it is also not very good use of land, can be a environmental hazard and has quite a few morally dubious practices.

But within 5 years it may be possible to purchase meat that is completely lab grown.

So is it a case that technology may just have killed the only good arguments vegetarians have for their lifestyle choice.

Or is there still more to it?


Team wants to sell lab grown meat in five years - BBC News

Click to expand...

Call me when they can produce the texture and flavor of real meat... HOWEVER as for your query, I'd hope this end veganism moral groundwork for being, and it can just be a choice people make.

Renae said:

Call me when they can produce the texture and flavor of real meat... HOWEVER as for your query, I'd hope this end veganism moral groundwork for being, and it can just be a choice people make.

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Well, if they are correct you will be getting that call within the next five years. This would have to put an end to the moral argument which leaves then what to base a choice on. All they have left to debate on is the health issue, whether a vegetarian diet is healthier than a meat based one. Or even possibly the debate of whose farts smell sweeter.

soylentgreen said:

The only argument i agree with from vegetarians is that the meat industry is cruelty to animals and understand those who are vegetarians on that basis.

That it is also not very good use of land, can be a environmental hazard and has quite a few morally dubious practices....

Or is there still more to it?

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You forgot the social impact of animal cruelty (desensitization), personal health and spiritual health. I suppose perhaps only personal health would be a consideration regarding synthetic meat. Though synthetic meat presents additional considerations such as corporate dependence (similar to the chemical treadmill).

Perhaps I should note and clarify the four main reasons for being vegetarian, since you kinda glossed over those:

1. Personal health.
2. Social health. This includes cruelty to animals and the resulting desensitization to violence. Animal cruelty does not only affect animals.
3. Ecologic health.
4. Spiritual health.

Any given vegetarian puts those in their own personal order of importance. Mine is 3, 2, 4, 1. Any order is reasonable.

JumpinJack said:

Besides, once you lose the taste for flesh, it's gone. At least my taste for beef, pork, etc., is gone. I have no desire to eat it, and don't find it appetizing or tempting.

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I agree.

soylentgreen said:

1. I agree with the cruelty, but not so much on the level of just killing them to eat.
It is more about things like putting live chicks through grinders to dispose of them that i see as a cruelty of the meat industry. Sorry to pick out chickens for you.

Click to expand...

It's not just the killing. For me, it's not really the killing at all. It's the conditions prior to killing.

soylentgreen said:

Or even possibly the debate of whose farts smell sweeter.

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Vegan farts don't smell. Methane has virtually no smell and disperses quickly. It's hydrogen sulfides that produce the smell of farts. There's no sulfur in plant products. After I'd been vegan a few months, my farts lost their smell. I was concerned. I looked it up.

Skeptic Bob said:

I'm vegan. I think the whole lab grown meat thing is great and I hope they succeed. But I wouldn't eat it. Back when I first gave up meat I craved it for a couple weeks but then that craving disappeared. I have zero desire to eat meat. Regardless of where it comes from the thought of the texture and mouthfeel of it grosses me out now. But then even when I was a meat eater I rarely had it as the main part of the meal. I was never into steaks, ribs or porkchops, for example.

Everything about my life, particularly health wise, improved greatly when I went vegan. I'm not evangelical about it though. It takes some study to learn how to put together a healthy vegan diet and not everyone has the ability, will or time to do that. And some people just don't handle it well physically. For some, like me, it is great. For others, not so much.

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I've been for about 20 years (I'm 46). And I agree with your points. I'm also not evangelical about it. I figure life is a demonstration and it's absurd to expect everyone to carry the same sign. There are a million ways to improve society, I don't expect everyone to engage in this particular way.