Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secretary.

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

Praxas said:

yes so that we can have states teach creationism as a curriculum requirement lol

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SenorXm/Sirius said:

Yeah, I can't think of ANYWAY for us to fall further behind in education then let 50 states make up 50 different set of rules on what to teach. Mississippi which is already ranked 50th in well, everything, will do great with something like this. LOL... They'll dumb down their schools even more, to the point where ANYONE graduating from any Mississippi school will have absolutely no chance of getting into a college in any other state, let alone getting a job in any other state.

What we'll save on dumping the Dept. of Ed., we'll spend taking care of generations of people who graduated in states believing the world was created in 6 days.

And yes I believe in God, but no I don't believe the earth was created in 6 days.

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I believe we have fundamentally opposing views on how our government should best serve us. If the people of a state wished to teach creationism then what gives you the right to bar them? Are people not capable of deciding for themselves what best serves them and their families or do you believe you are so enlightened that you know what is best for everyone else? The same applies to funding and method. I am tired of persons such as yourself who feel it is their right to limit the choices of others because you do not agree with them. This is why people can not get along because someone is always trying to dictate how other people should live or how the world should treat them based on their own views instead of letting people make their own choices and live their own lives.

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

Carjosse said:

Then you adjust the equation, give it only to states that would have trouble raising that money. I would assume mainly poor Southern states, while states like Texas and those in the North-East would be asked to just raise taxes to a suitable level to pay for it. Like the equation used to distribute transfer payments in Canada, though hopefully much simpler.

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That plan has some actual merit but you can't expect that to ever happen. Congress critters have discovered that the idea federal taxation rate is about 18% of GDP while the ideal federal spending rate is about 20% of GDP. The definition of ideal, of course, being that it results in a congress critter re-election rate of over 90%.

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

Bassman said:

College, better known as the Communist indoctrination centers, are not the end all be all to life after HS. There are the building trades, Commercial driving, etc. that don't require an alphabet soup and a piece of paper.

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To do anything well requires knowledge. Even those "building trades" have experts in engineering, architecture, urban planning. All i see oozing out of your posts is bitterness

With few exceptions, smarter people get a degree and smarter people don't need to be indoctrinated to stay the hell away from right wing extremism. They already know better. If you harbor such a disdain for having to pay for indoctrination, you should start with taxing churches!

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

ttwtt78640 said:

That is part of the problem rather than part of the solution. It is most evident with student "loans" (quotes because they include provisions to avoid being paid back) - if state A spends more to subsidize college education than state B does then the "need" for a bigger student loan is greater in state B. It is also true in K12 education - if a state spends less per pupil then they get more of a federal subsidy. This redistribution process allows states (or cities) to cut taxes used for education (and to raise teacher and administrative pay?) since the resulting "shortfall" can (will?) be made up with federal funds.

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Not really since what we're seeing instead is fewer are willing to take out $40k in debt, while state spending goes down and costs go up, resulting in these schools just going bankrupt. The entire public college system in louisiana declared bankruptcy last year. In addition, the amount that can be borrowed is capped, so say the cost after state funds is $40k and you can only borrow $20k, but you're determined to get a degree. So you have to borrow the other $20k from banks. So this has long stopped being a 1:1 of state funding to federal

As a side note, what's crazy and totally unfair about this process is that the colleges can have their debts forgiven, hell so can the for-profit banks, but not the 17 year old kid seeking an education (unless he goes into public service for many years - these provisions you speak of are quite difficult). And this debt does cripple the state economy, as a sizeable number of the state's recent grads spend everything they earn paying back the fed, or fleeing the state as soon as possible for better jobs, and before repayment is due

I know less of K-12, but it seems similarly not 1:1 to me. Kansas cut an entire month off the school year due to shortfall. The state appropriation process is also different, coming from property taxes and things like lotto taxes, which have limited options to spend the $. So often the shortfall is from collecting less, rather than redistributing income tax $ away from colleges, which even before the recession became the republican ploy to keep their citizens uneducated and, well, republican

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

chromium said:

To do anything well requires knowledge. Even those "building trades" have experts in engineering, architecture, urban planning. All i see oozing out of your posts is bitterness

With few exceptions, smarter people get a degree and smarter people don't need to be indoctrinated to stay the hell away from Left wing communism. They already know better. If you harbor such a disdain for having to pay for indoctrination, you should start with taxing churches!

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Fixed for accuracy

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

ttwtt78640 said:

Getting rid of federal spending of over $75 billion is simply not going to happen - once the states get used to those "free" federal funds then they are more likely to increase than ever to be cut.

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It should be illegal for federal government to send funds to state and local governments unless they are buying something from them. It destroys states rights by buying those rights from the states. Monster corruption.

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

These discussions are so far beyond the pale for political reality, let alone education policy sense to be taken seriously. To take down the Department of Education is to suggest radically altering the wide array of education legislation that has taken place over the last 40 years. An internet poster will say, "well, yeah," a politician running a campaign will pretend to lead the charge, a local legislator may even rant or rave about it for their entire careers. It still won't change the reality that such suggestions are not only stupid for any management situation, but also with the results-driven accountability that has been instituted with student demographics and school systems where the Department actually has incredible influence with. That's why it never happened.

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

ttwtt78640 said:

Getting rid of federal spending of over $75 billion is simply not going to happen - once the states get used to those "free" federal funds then they are more likely to increase than ever to be cut.

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They need to make the transfer of money from federal to state or local government illegal. The only exception should be for the federal government to buy something from another government. Restore states' independence.

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

fmw said:

They need to make the transfer of money from federal to state or local government illegal. The only exception should be for the federal government to buy something from another government. Restore states' independence.

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That is highly unlikely especially since federal funds can obviously be given directly to individuals. What needs to happen is for the SCOTUS to grow a pair and limit the federal government to its enumerated constitutional powers - which do not include education.

Just because something is paid for by federal taxes, enacted into law by congress and/or the POTUS or deemed "important" does not make it into a constitutional federal power.

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

ttwtt78640 said:

That is highly unlikely especially since federal funds can obviously be given directly to individuals. What needs to happen is for the SCOTUS to grow a pair and limit the federal government to its enumerated constitutional powers - which do not include education.

Just because something is paid for by federal taxes, enacted into law by congress and/or the POTUS or deemed "important" does not make it into a constitutional federal power.

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It should be illegal for government to give funds directly to individuals as well. Everyone should be treated equally. Giving money to some without giving it to all is not equality.

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

fmw said:

It should be illegal for government to give funds directly to individuals as well. Everyone should be treated equally. Giving money to some without giving it to all is not equality.

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From each according to their ability (to pay taxes), to each according to their need (for free/subsidized stuff). That (socialist?) idea was evidently implied somewhere in the U.S. constitution.

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

ttwtt78640 said:

From each according to their ability (to pay taxes), to each according to their need (for free/subsidized stuff). That (socialist?) idea was evidently implied somewhere in the U.S. constitution.

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Actually it was expressly forbidden. Powers outside of those enumerated in the constitution fall to the states.

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

fmw said:

Actually it was expressly forbidden. Powers outside of those enumerated in the constitution fall to the states.

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Not according to our nine robed umpires - it now seems that whatever congress passes and the POTUS signs is constitutional.

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

ttwtt78640 said:

Not according to our nine robed umpires - it now seems that whatever congress passes and the POTUS signs is constitutional.

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Theory vs. practice. The supreme court is political and always has been. They support unconstitutional activity regularly.

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

fmw said:

Theory vs. practice. The supreme court is political and always has been. They support unconstitutional activity regularly.

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Yep, so much for checks and balances.

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

Bassman said:

College, better known as the Communist indoctrination centers, are not the end all be all to life after HS. There are the building trades, Commercial driving, etc. that don't require an alphabet soup and a piece of paper.

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That's too bad ... was your College days that bad? ... Animal

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

ttwtt78640 said:

Getting rid of federal spending of over $75 billion is simply not going to happen - once the states get used to those "free" federal funds then they are more likely to increase than ever to be cut.

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That is a real problem. That's what has got us into our present economic mess. The cuts should have taken place in the boom boom years of the 1990s.

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

100 % in favor of closing the dept. of ED.

the founders rejected the federal government involved in education on sept 5 1787

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

SenorXm/Sirius said:

Yeah, I can't think of ANYWAY for us to fall further behind in education then let 50 states make up 50 different set of rules on what to teach. Mississippi which is already ranked 50th in well, everything, will do great with something like this. LOL... They'll dumb down their schools even more, to the point where ANYONE graduating from any Mississippi school will have absolutely no chance of getting into a college in any other state, let alone getting a job in any other state.

What we'll save on dumping the Dept. of Ed., we'll spend taking care of generations of people who graduated in states believing the world was created in 6 days.

And yes I believe in God, but no I don't believe the earth was created in 6 days.

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Its like a Twi-light Zone episode from whichever side loses on the question, for however long or short a time it takes to get it back...

But what the other side doesn't understand is that they still want their preferred and influenced science pseudo religious beliefs taught... in the place of creationism. I say leave them both out as to our common origins and only that which can be proven from that point on.

Deal? Deal. For public schools, no indoctrination from either side. Neither side has dominance. Penalties, stiff, if violated. Let the parents teach the kids the other as they so choose.

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

joG said:

That is a real problem. That's what has got us into our present economic mess. The cuts should have taken place in the boom boom years of the 1990s.

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The cuts should be done simply because education is not a federal power. There is no end to nice things that can be federally funded but the constitution specifies what can (should?) be federally funded.

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

The US spends way more per capita than any other developed country, yet gets mediocre results. Hmm, I wonder what's unique about the US that would hold back education results. Hmm.

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

Gaugingcatenate said:

Its like a Twi-light Zone episode from whichever side loses on the question, for however long or short a time it takes to get it back...

But what the other side doesn't understand is that they still want their preferred and influenced science pseudo religious beliefs taught... in the place of creationism. I say leave them both out as to our common origins and only that which can be proven from that point on.

Deal? Deal. For public schools, no indoctrination from either side. Neither side has dominance. Penalties, stiff, if violated. Let the parents teach the kids the other as they so choose.

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Give the parents total control. Done.

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

Bassman said:

In 1978, President Jimmy Carter formed the Department of Education and established a corresponding Cabinet Level secretary as payback to the teachers' unions (NEA) for their 1976 endorsement. The end result has been the quality of education since then has done nothing but circle the toilet bowl. No more teaching the basics, (Three Rs) Now everything is an educational flavor of the decade such as Outcome-Based Education (remember that one?), NCLB (Thank you Teddy Kennedy for that one) and now Common Core. Folks, education MUST be restored to local control, period.

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Before the Department of Education and federal involvement we were number one in the world in math, science etc. What are we now, 26th and 32nd give or take. Sure, some states had a lot better education system than others, but over all we were better served with education at the local level. You got my vote.

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

Perotista said:

Before the Department of Education and federal involvement we were number one in the world in math, science etc. What are we now, 26th and 32nd give or take. Sure, some states had a lot better education system than others, but over all we were better served with education at the local level. You got my vote.

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What else changed around the late 1960s and through the 1970s? I just can't figure it out!

Re: Abolishing the Department of "Education" and eliminating the cabinet level secret

phattonez said:

What else changed around the late 1960s and through the 1970s? I just can't figure it out!

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I don't know. If we did perhaps we could change it and get education back on track. Now I went to an old country school, very small. But come the 1960's there was a huge push to do away with all these smaller schools, consolidation of schools is one thing that took place. Discipline in schools also took a dive. Back in the 50's and 60's most mothers stayed home and was there after school to help with homework, they didn't work or farm kids out to daycare. Single mothers also have risen.

Whether the above had an effect or not, I am not certain. But those are some changes that have taken place besides involvement of the Federal Government. I have also noticed when my daughter attended college and today with a couple of grand kids, what I learned in subjects like English, Math, Science, history in High School, kids today are learning that in their first and second years of college.

I noticed that helping my daughter and grand kids with their college assignments and home work. Perhaps with federal involvement our schools today are teaching class down to the lowest student instead of bringing up the class to the highest student.

I would imagine our sinking world standing is a result of a myriad of things. Maybe a lot of little things which over time has resulted in our fall in education. Getting the federal government out of education and placing it back with states when the good old USA was number one, might not help or be the answer. I don't know as I haven't studied it.