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The American system of undergraduate education: its origins and purpose

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ataraxia

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College education, ie, an undergraduate system, is a distinctly American phenomenon. No other nation in the world has anything like it. In most other countries, when you finish high school, you go to professional/vocational school, depending on the results of your examinations. This "extended high school", as some have called it, is only present in the US. Its history, as best I have been able to figure out, started out with the Puritans and Harvard University. As soon as the Puritans had cleared out some farmland and learned to protect themselves a little bit from the elements and invading Indians, they established this 4 year system of "liberal arts" education to train educated and refined young men to lead their communities.

But this system is increasingly under scrutiny now. It is being seen increasingly as a luxury, rather than a necessity. It is a luxury that neither most kids, nor society at large, can afford anymore.

What are your thoughts? Should the US follow the rest of the world and just eradicate this system? Or is it that our populace is dangerously uneducated enough, and you take this away too, our whole system of democracy will be undermined. Because, after all,

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be...Preach, my dear Sir, a crusade against ignorance; establish and improve the law for educating the common people. Let our countrymen know, that the people alone can protect us against these evils (tyranny, aristocracy, etc...), and that the tax which will be paid for this purpose, is not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid to kings, priests and nobles, who will rise up among us if we leave the people in ignorance.”
-Thomas Jefferson
 
ataraxia said:
College education, ie, an undergraduate system, is a distinctly American phenomenon. No other nation in the world has anything like it. In most other countries, when you finish high school, you go to professional/vocational school, depending on the results of your examinations. This "extended high school", as some have called it, is only present in the US. Its history, as best I have been able to figure out, started out with the Puritans and Harvard University. As soon as the Puritans had cleared out some farmland and learned to protect themselves a little bit from the elements and invading Indians, they established this 4 year system of "liberal arts" education to train educated and refined young men to lead their communities.

But this system is increasingly under scrutiny now. It is being seen increasingly as a luxury, rather than a necessity. It is a luxury that neither most kids, nor society at large, can afford anymore.

What are your thoughts? Should the US follow the rest of the world and just eradicate this system? Or is it that our populace is dangerously uneducated enough, and you take this away too, our whole system of democracy will be undermined. Because, after all,

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be...Preach, my dear Sir, a crusade against ignorance; establish and improve the law for educating the common people. Let our countrymen know, that the people alone can protect us against these evils (tyranny, aristocracy, etc...), and that the tax which will be paid for this purpose, is not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid to kings, priests and nobles, who will rise up among us if we leave the people in ignorance.”
-Thomas Jefferson
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I to break this to you but most of the world uses an undergraduate system and the system itself originates in the UK to my knowledge. Not only that but it predates Harvard quite substantially.
 
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The UK may be the closest anyone comes. And from what I understand, theirs is only 1-2 years.

Most of the rest of the world, you just go to professional school after high school. In Germany, France, Russia, China, India, etc... for example, you go straight to medical school after high school for 6 years, rather than 4 years undergrad and then 4 years med school as it is done here. There is none of this talk of a "liberal arts education" in an undergraduate system. That's a very distinctly American concept.
 
ataraxia said:
The UK may be the closest anyone comes. And from what I understand, theirs is only 1-2 years.

Most of the rest of the world, you just go to professional school after high school. In Germany, France, Russia, China, India, etc... for example, you go straight to medical school after high school for 6 years, rather than 4 years undergrad and then 4 years med school as it is done here. There is none of this talk of a "liberal arts education" in an undergraduate system. That's a very distinctly American concept.
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Have you ever looked at how programs are structured in other countries? I guess all of my exchange student friends are lying about their degrees then. Google any university around the world I can guarantee they are structured in a very similar fashion. Show me the countries where this happens.
 
ataraxia said:
College education, ie, an undergraduate system, is a distinctly American phenomenon. No other nation in the world has anything like it. In most other countries, when you finish high school, you go to professional/vocational school, depending on the results of your examinations. This "extended high school", as some have called it, is only present in the US. Its history, as best I have been able to figure out, started out with the Puritans and Harvard University. As soon as the Puritans had cleared out some farmland and learned to protect themselves a little bit from the elements and invading Indians, they established this 4 year system of "liberal arts" education to train educated and refined young men to lead their communities.

But this system is increasingly under scrutiny now. It is being seen increasingly as a luxury, rather than a necessity. It is a luxury that neither most kids, nor society at large, can afford anymore.

What are your thoughts? Should the US follow the rest of the world and just eradicate this system? Or is it that our populace is dangerously uneducated enough, and you take this away too, our whole system of democracy will be undermined. Because, after all,

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be...Preach, my dear Sir, a crusade against ignorance; establish and improve the law for educating the common people. Let our countrymen know, that the people alone can protect us against these evils (tyranny, aristocracy, etc...), and that the tax which will be paid for this purpose, is not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid to kings, priests and nobles, who will rise up among us if we leave the people in ignorance.”
-Thomas Jefferson
Click to expand...

The problem with education in this country is that it's a business and it's top priority is to stay in business through continued funding. The learned have always been from the industrialist's lines and scientific households, that had the money, to follow up. The founders versions of it though were different, and education was a priority for its own sake, thus the public education system.

These days however, its fastly becoming a road to nowhere but debt, precisely because its purposes are being wiped out by the free market and the state of temporary employment. I'm not sure how it's going to end up in the coming years, but at this rate, people just aren't going to want it anymore.
 
jet57 said:
These days however, its fastly becoming a road to nowhere but debt, precisely because its purposes are being wiped out by the free market and the state of temporary employment. I'm not sure how it's going to end up in the coming years, but at this rate, people just aren't going to want it anymore.
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Can you explain this a little more? What do you mean by " fastly becoming a road to nowhere but debt, precisely because its purposes are being wiped out by the free market "? How does a free market wipe out the value of a college education? I thought it was the other way around.
 
Carjosse said:
Have you ever looked at how programs are structured in other countries? I guess all of my exchange student friends are lying about their degrees then. Google any university around the world I can guarantee they are structured in a very similar fashion. Show me the countries where this happens.
Click to expand...

I guess I am looking at professional schools, like medical, law, etcc.... In most countries, you enter medical school, for example, right after high school. You complete it in 6 years, as opposed to the 4 year undergrad/4 year med school track required here. There is no undergraduate degree required, from what I understand.
 
ataraxia said:
Can you explain this a little more? What do you mean by " fastly becoming a road to nowhere but debt, precisely because its purposes are being wiped out by the free market "? How does a free market wipe out the value of a college education? I thought it was the other way around.
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There are no jobs to go to for new graduates who have nothing but debt. American universities are not backed by the labor market anymore, because companies are going elsewhere for people. So the "free market"; moving companies and jobs, taking lower waged people etc, has all but killed the advantages of higher education, and those with new diplomas are just stuck with debt that they can't pay off. It gets up and over $100,000 for some degrees.

The "free market" is beast with no conscience and no sense, and as such it has turned away from America strictly for the preservation of itself and the pyramid scheme that runs it. Colleges and universities have done very much the same thing: foreign students pay much higher tuition rates, therefore American students are side steeped in favor of profits. The job market is working the very same way: foreign people, lower wages, higher profits, Americans turned away.
 
jet57 said:
There are no jobs to go to for new graduates who have nothing but debt. American universities are not backed by the labor market anymore, because companies are going elsewhere for people. So the "free market"; moving companies and jobs, taking lower waged people etc, has all but killed the advantages of higher education, and those with new diplomas are just stuck with debt that they can't pay off. It gets up and over $100,000 for some degrees.

The "free market" is beast with no conscience and no sense, and as such it has turned away from America strictly for the preservation of itself and the pyramid scheme that runs it. Colleges and universities have done very much the same thing: foreign students pay much higher tuition rates, therefore American students are side steeped in favor of profits. The job market is working the very same way: foreign people, lower wages, higher profits, Americans turned away.
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I am not sure this is quite accurate. The people getting hurt the most right now in the US are those without a college degree. College graduates actually are doing OK in the current economy.
 
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ataraxia said:
I am not sure this is quite accurate. The people getting hurt the most right now in the US are those without a college degree. College graduates actually are doing OK in the current economy.
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The number don't show that. There are too many who cannot find work.
 
jet57 said:
The number don't show that. There are too many who cannot find work.
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Sure. But far fewer than those without a college degree.
 
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