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Right to bodily sovereignty

Do you believe in the right to bodily sovereignty?

  • Yes

    Votes: 39 81.3%
  • No

    Votes: 2 4.2%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 7 14.6%

  • Total voters
    48
Obviously you didn't, otherwise you would not be claiming what you have. This is not some matter up for interpretation. It is blatantly in the ruling. I think you should just read the whole thing honestly.

I find it's quite silly to suggest a person always knows exactly why or what they are thinking or feeling. I strongly doubt you would act like a person eating a human fetus is no different from someone eating a chicken fetus, you are merely saying you would for argument's sake.

When you equate a fetus with a parasite, you are definitely showing contempt. You may shield it with the strange notion that this is somehow a rational way of describing them, but that only fools you.

I'm done debating with you. I'm tired of your constant implications that I'm lying, especially since you're too much of a spineless coward to actually come right out and say it.
 
I'm done debating with you. I'm tired of your constant implications that I'm lying, especially since you're too much of a spineless coward to actually come right out and say it.

I never assume anyone lies, because I know the human mind is an unusual thing. What I do know is that the ruling of Roe v. Wade clearly says that the state has a valid interest in protecting human life and the only reason anyone would say otherwise is if they haven't read it or read the crucial parts fully. I also know that some people will say they would behave a certain way in a given situation because that is what they would like to believe about themselves. Finally, I know people might rationalize contempt as some other emotion or reaction and that is also a matter of one's preferred image. When someone engages in self-deception I can hardly consider them to be lying to me.

You know, you are free to discuss any of the other matters, unless this was just an excuse to get out of the discussion, which I would understand.
 
Sovereignty, is, in and of itself ownership, over that self. It is the exercise of power over that body. It is the exercise of volition. In the most aggressive sense of the term, it would be fully 'theirs' upon their assumption of the cultural age of majority. I would argue, however, that sovereignty goes far beyond that... that it is also a power of defense of self against others. It is the exercise of self-will.

If you are asking when the soul enters the body, I cannot tell you. I cannot with honesty tell you when volition enters the body, outside of instinct. I am not certain anyone knows, or can know.

If you ask ten men on any of these issues, you will get at least ten, and sometimes more different answers. It is a matter of belief, not something that may be proven.

I can sympathize with your argument that life begins at conception, however, volition, and self-will cannot exist within those simple cells. We do know that the mother has, and maintains volition, so long as she is not a vegetable. At that point, her caretakers take over. So long as her mind is her own, she is hers.

That sovereign right insists that it is her volition that should determine her belief. That no force may be justly exercised upon it without trespass upon that sovereignty. The fetus.. cannot exert that right. The position that she cannot make the choice attempts to place society in that position.

As much as I wish it were possible to transfer those fetuses to artificial wombs, it is not practical or possible. The fetus, itself, cannot exercise volition below a certain complexity. It cannot exert those rights, for good or ill, until after it is born, or capable of birth. It is neither sovereign nor subject, and the only limited rights it has, are the rights we establish in its name, maintain and preserve in its name. It has no property in its opinion, no standing to suit in a court. It is, in the most absolute sense, a ward of the mother, an absolute ward in that it cannot, even in the most limited sense, survive without her.

If it were otherwise, it could later sue for the choices the mother made... and criminal charges would ensue for miscarriage. It could be charged with in-utero cannibalism, absorbing a second fetus. Along with that sovereignty comes responsibility.

The issue is between her, her doctor, and their collective conscience.

This is why laws for matters of opinion are almost never good laws. We tend to create the issues, the factions, and then create the causes to move behind, and ignore the costs, realities, and issues created.

We all have to suffer the consequences of our actions. That is the right of conscience, and the cost of volition.

It is by that right we all are tried, is it not? I will answer for mine when that day comes.
What you say has logic, however you leave out the father of the unborn child. The father also has "volition", but is presumed (by prochoice) to have no rights on the matter of his unborn offspring. In the process of procreation, there are only two genders, yet society bestows more rights on one than the other. I argue that if the mother has the sole right to abort an unborn child, then the father has a right to disown a born child (i.e., to have no responsibility or accountability to it). Either that or there is no sole right to abort and no right to disown.
 
In the process of procreation, there are only two genders, yet society bestows more rights on one than the other.
That probably is so because the burden of the process, the effects of the process and possible outcomes of the process do not involve both genders. What you fail to realize that in abortion it is the process, as it it born by a certain person, is the focus. The needs of a born child exist regardless of who bore the process, as at that point the mater reverts to the simplicity of the two genders who produced the offspring.
 
The only way one may have ownership over another's life is to have him as a slave, which is equally prohibited, both by United States law, and international treaty.
"...the people; and they are truly the Sovereigns of the country, but they are Sovereigns without subjects... "
-- John Locke, second treatise on Civil Government, 1690.

What about sovereign states? Would you support the invasion of China, to force them to end abortion?

Abortion has been called a "Holocaust" and most people favored invasion to shut down death camps in WWII.
The question is always "What should we force women to do" and even this thread focuses on what rights we'll let women have.
What if women were a well armed foreign state? What if you lacked legal authority entirely to force your will on another sovereign power?

Starting with sovereignty we can ask when it's appropriate to violate it.
 
The concept of bodily sovereignty is brought up quite a bit in the abortion debate, but I thought it would interesting to see what people thought about the concept.

Do you believe a person has a right to bodily sovereignty (assuming that right doesn't conflict with the rights of anyone else). As in they have the right to make decisions about their own body and the right to control who/what makes use of their body?

Yes of course. (not sure how long this necro'd thread will last)

A woman's right to choose does not interfere with the bodily sovereignty of any other person or the rights of anyone else.

The sentence I bolded, I give that a "thumb's up."
 
A woman's right to choose does not interfere with the bodily sovereignty of any other person or the rights of anyone else.

The question of "what should we do about abortion" has hand of god power and authority built into it.
What I'm asking is what about without the authority and even the power.

In 2008 China had an estimated 13 million abortions performed, and approximately 10 million abortion pills sold (20 times the US).

For those forcing their will on American women would they take up arms and deal with a real question of sovereignty and force their will on the women of China.

Isn't a big factor in the debate that women won't be a threat, whatever is decided. When the leaders of eugenics sterilized the poor I wonder if they would have lost interest had the experts determined the rich and powerful needed to be sterilized.
 
The question of "what should we do about abortion" has hand of god power and authority built into it.
What I'm asking is what about without the authority and even the power.

In 2008 China had an estimated 13 million abortions performed, and approximately 10 million abortion pills sold (20 times the US).

For those forcing their will on American women would they take up arms and deal with a real question of sovereignty and force their will on the women of China.

Isn't a big factor in the debate that women won't be a threat, whatever is decided. When the leaders of eugenics sterilized the poor I wonder if they would have lost interest had the experts determined the rich and powerful needed to be sterilized.

My answer is no.
 
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