Raped 9-Year-Old Has Abortion

jallman · Mar 10, 2009

Felicity said:
He did? Where has it been reported that it was the Bishop that contacted the media? Really...where?

I said he contacted the media? Really...where?

This is a Catholic country we're talking about--don't you think Catholic reporters know what questions to ask about the Church's stance? The Church doesn't hide her beliefs.

Which ahs what to do with this archbishop politicizing this family over strict dogmatic obstinance rather than compassion and Christ-like concern for the well-being of a 9 year old girl?

Felicity · Mar 10, 2009

talloulou said:
I consider it similar to the slap in the face I got when the church allowed my father to have an annulment rendering all four of us kids bastards.

that's not the Church's position. Personal hurt gets blamed on the Church because it's easier than to place the blame where it belongs.

jallman · Mar 10, 2009

Felicity said:
Culpability for WHAT? Having an opinion?

For shaming and spiritually terrorizing a mother who is already in a crisis situation.

I am so disappointed in you right now I don't even think I can keep this conversation up.

talloulou · Mar 10, 2009

Felicity said:
You don't know WHAT you're talking about. All a person needs to do is repent and go to confession. It could take twenty minutes to twenty years or longer. It's up to the sinner.

No Felicity. Perhaps it's you who don't know what YOU are talking about. Generally regular priests cannot even lift an excommunication. Sometimes it requires the permission of a bishop to do so. Absolution is not guaranteed. Have you ever officially attempted to get an excommunication lifted?

talloulou · Mar 10, 2009

Felicity said:
that's not the Church's position. Personal hurt gets blamed on the Church because it's easier than to place the blame where it belongs.

No, it was men in white robes with funny hats that declared via God that my parents were never married when they in fact were for 10 years with 4 children involved.

That was the day I knew church and all those men were full of horse****.

Felicity · Mar 10, 2009

jallman said:
I said he contacted the media? Really...where?

so you would rather he act in silence? Yeah--that went over well with the abuse scandal.:roll: the pro-aborts "politicized" it to get people to have the rabid anti Church sentiment you are demonstrating. The Bishop merely did his job.

Which ahs what to do with this archbishop politicizing this family over strict dogmatic obstinance rather than compassion and Christ-like concern for the well-being of a 9 year old girl?

I know you'd like Mother Church to change her views on some things. I'm sorry, she won't. Confirming one in mortal sin is no mercy.

Felicity · Mar 10, 2009

jallman said:
For shaming and spiritually terrorizing a mother who is already in a crisis situation.

Where's your outrage at the pro-abort crowd trotting this girl around as the poster girl for mean old Catholic Church?

I am so disappointed in you right now I don't even think I can keep this conversation up.

Being a little dramatic, aren't you?

jallman · Mar 10, 2009

Felicity said:
so you would rather he act in silence? Yeah--that went over well with the abuse scandal.:roll: the pro-aborts "politicized" it to get people to have the rabid anti Church sentiment you are demonstrating. The Bishop merely did his job.

The bishop maintained a stance that was counter to compassionate concern for the life of that 9 year old girl. And in the midst of his tantrum, he publically shamed the mother. That's not doing his job.

I take that back. He might be doing his job, but he isn't doing a priest and man of God's job.

I know you'd like Mother Church to change her views on some things. I'm sorry, she won't. Confirming one in mortal sin is no mercy.

Every source states that the there was enough concern that the girl's life was in danger that it warranted a therapeutic abortion.

When the archbishop gets his MD and can make legitimate counterclaims to the medical professionals, then maybe he gets a say in the medical care of this 9 year old girl.

Things like this are what make me walk away from the Church for years at a time.

Felicity · Mar 10, 2009

talloulou said:
No Felicity. Perhaps it's you who don't know what YOU are talking about. Generally regular priests cannot even lift an excommunication. Sometimes it requires the permission of a bishop to do so. Absolution is not guaranteed. Have you ever officially attempted to get an excommunication lifted?

NOT for procuring an abortion. Repentance and Confession is all that is needed.

jallman · Mar 10, 2009

Felicity said:
Where's your outrage at the pro-abort crowd trotting this girl around as the poster girl for mean old Catholic Church?

Sorry...all my outrage got used up when the Church turned it's lawyers loose on an extortion rampage against the mother.

Being a little dramatic, aren't you?

No. I am genuinely disappointed in how you are defending this as if you were defending Rome herself. It's disgusting.

Felicity · Mar 10, 2009

jallman said:
The bishop maintained a stance that was counter to compassionate concern for the life of that 9 year old girl. And in the midst of his tantrum, he publically shamed the mother. That's not doing his job.

I take that back. He might be doing his job, but he isn't doing a priest and man of God's job.

Again--you ignore the other two lives--the ones taken in the abortion. So what whatever YOU believe? The Bishop acts "as an agent of the Church" and speaks what SHE believes.

Every source states that the there was enough concern that the girl's life was in danger that it warranted a therapeutic abortion.

Not true--the 1st hospital said she was okay for now.

When the archbishop gets his MD and can make legitimate counterclaims to the medical professionals, then maybe he gets a say in the medical care of this 9 year old girl.

IMIP said she was fine but eventually would likely need intervention. In the development of babies, days are a very long time, and even hours matter.

Things like this are what make me walk away from the Church for years at a time.

No, your obstinate sin does that, and you choose to walk away.

talloulou · Mar 10, 2009

Felicity said:
NOT for procuring an abortion. Repentance and Confession is all that is needed.

The mother was excommunicated by an archbishop.

Now, stay with me here. You said Jallman is excommunicated for his lifestyle. This isn't true.

A regular priest is not even capable of excommunicating a member of his own congregation, nor can a regular priest absolve an excommunication without explicit permission from a bishop to do so.

To be excommunicated, especially publicly, means something.

This woman would have to have the same archbishop who excommunicated her reinstate her or that same archbishop or another bishop would have to give permission to her priest to reinstate her.

If you have an abortion you can just go to confession.

When the archbishop excommunicates you publicly you are not reinstated within Catholic society until he, the archbishops, says it's so.

Felicity · Mar 10, 2009

jallman said:
Sorry...all my outrage got used up when the Church turned it's lawyers loose on an extortion rampage against the mother.

That is utter bull****.

No. I am genuinely disappointed in how you are defending this as if you were defending Rome herself. It's disgusting.

I do believe I'm defending the Truth. If that disgusts you, so be it.

Felicity · Mar 10, 2009

talloulou said:
The mother was excommunicated by an archbishop.

Now, stay with me here. You said Jallman is excommunicated for his lifestyle. This isn't true.

A regular priest is not even capable of excommunicating a member of his own congregation, nor can a regular priest absolve an excommunication without explicit permission from a bishop to do so.

If I gave you the Catechism on the matter would you read it and believe me? I believe I already quoted it in this thread.:doh

To be excommunicated, especially publicly, means something.

This woman would have to have the same archbishop who excommunicated her reinstate her or that same archbishop or another bishop would have to give permission to her priest to reinstate her.

If you have an abortion you can just go to confession.

When the archbishop excommunicates you publicly you are not reinstated within Catholic society until he, the archbishops, says it's so.

You are confused about different sorts of "excommunications." The Bishop was simply pointing out Church teaching. Here...gimme a minute...I'll link you to the post where I quoted it.

talloulou · Mar 10, 2009

According to the Catholic Church, excommunication, in the sense of a formal proceeding, is not a penalty, but rather a formal proclamation of a pre-existing condition in a more or less prominent member of the Catholic Church. When such a person commits acts that in themselves separate him from the communion of the faithful, particularly when by word, deed, or example he or she "spreads division and confusion among the Faithful", it is necessary for the Church to clarify the situation by means of a formal announcement, which informs the laity that this is not a person to follow, and notifies the clergy that the person, by their own willful acts, has separated from the Church and is no longer to receive the sacraments, with the exception of Reconciliation. The decree may also indicate the mode of Reconciliation required for re-entry into the Church, specifying whether the local bishop may administer the process or it is reserved to the Pope. Excommunication is never a merely "vindictive penalty" (designed solely to punish), but is always used as a "medicinal penalty" intended to pressure the person into changing their behaviour or statements, repent and return to full communion.

Excommunication - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

See? It is not a regular priest and a confession. It may go all the way up to the pope. At the very least a Bishop is required and there may be attachments and/or conditions that are necessary on top of confession before the person is absolved or reinstated.

Felicity · Mar 10, 2009

talloulou said:
Excommunication - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

See? It is not a regular priest and a confession. It may go all the way up to the pope. At the very least a Bishop is required and there may be attachments and/or conditions that are necessary on top of confession before the person is absolved or reinstated.

Not so. There are varying degrees.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057951401-post50.html

jallman · Mar 10, 2009

Felicity said:
Again--you ignore the other two lives--the ones taken in the abortion. So what whatever YOU believe? The Bishop acts "as an agent of the Church" and speaks what SHE believes.

I'm not ignoring them. I am not as concerned about them because A) there is no moral consequence to their termination and B) the nine year old was in danger.

Not true--the 1st hospital said she was okay for now.

Oh so lets just go with the first opinion right now because it is convenient to our dogma and forget what the other doctors said because...well...abortion is bad, mmmkay. :doh

IMIP said she was fine but eventually would likely need intervention.

So we wait until she is at death's door before we give her the assistance she needs? Is it getting through to you at all that this is a traumatized little girl in a crisis situation that is going to haunt her for the rest of her life as it is or are you just concerned with making sure you are a good little catholic and hold tight to your apologies for the bishop's behavior despite this girl's pain?

ARRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In the development of babies, days are a very long time, and even hours matter.

Probably true in grown woman. You know, in the development of little 9 year old girls, rape and public humiliation matter, too.

No, your obstinate sin does that, and you choose to walk away.

You are absolutely right. And it's my obstinate sin of compassion over dogma that leads me to renounce my Catholicism from here on. I don't want anything to do with an institution that would do this to a family in this much crisis.

Washed my hands and done. Probably should have done this years ago.

talloulou · Mar 10, 2009

Excommunication is an act of ecclesiastical jurisdiction, the rules of which it follows. Hence the general principle: whoever has jurisdiction in the forum externum, properly so called, can excommunicate, but only his own subjects. Therefore, whether excommunications be a jure (by the law) or ab homine (under form of sentence or precept), they may come from the pope alone or a general council for the entire Church; from the provincial council for an ecclesiastical province; from the bishop for his diocese; from the prelate nullius for quasi-diocesan territories; and from regular prelates for religious orders. Moreover, anyone can excommunicate who, by virtue of his office, even when delegated, has contentious jurisdiction in the forum externum; for instance, papal legates, vicars capitular, and vicars-general. But a parish priest cannot inflict this penalty nor even declare that it is incurred, i.e. he cannot do so in an official and judicial manner. The subjects of these variousauthorities are those who come under their jurisdiction chiefly on account of domicile or quasi-domicile in their territory; then by reason of the offence committed while on such territory; and finally by reason of personal right, as in the case of regulars.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Excommunication

Felicity · Mar 10, 2009

Abortion - Excommunication
NOTE WELL To actually incur the excommunication one must know that it is an excommunicable offense at the time of the abortion. Canon 1323 provides that the following do not incur a sanction, those who are not yet 16, are unaware of a law, do not advert to it or are in error about its scope, were forced or had an unforeseeable accident, acted out of grave fear, or who lacked the use of reason (except culpably, as by drunkenness). Thus a woman forced by an abusive husband to have an abortion would not incur an excommunication, for instance, whereas someone culpably under the influence of drugs or alcohol would (canon 1325).

In any case, whether one has been excommunicated or not, the sin of abortion must be confessed as the taking of innocent human life (5th Commandment). If the penitent did not know about this law at the time of the abortion then he or she was NOT excommunicated. If the person knew about the law but there were extenuating circumstances (such as mentioned above concerning c. 1323) then these factors should be mentioned to the confessor. He will say whether he has the faculty from the bishop to absolve from this excommunication or whether he even needs to. If he does not, he will privately and secretly obtain absolution from the bishop or send the person to a confessor who has that power.

A person who believes they have been excommunicated must refrain from Holy Communion until both absolution for the sin and absolution for the excommunication has been given.

talloulou · Mar 10, 2009

jallman said:
Washed my hands and done. Probably should have done this years ago.

:2party: Welcome to the dark side. It's surprising how many kind compassionate folks dwell in the shadows. I soooo knew you'd come around one day.

jallman · Mar 10, 2009

talloulou said:
:2party: Welcome to the dark side. It's surprising how many kind compassionate folks dwell in the shadows. I soooo knew you'd come around one day.

Heh. Well I highly doubt my attendance on Christmas and Easter will be missed all that much.

talloulou · Mar 10, 2009

Felicity said:
Abortion - Excommunication
NOTE WELL To actually incur the excommunication one must know that it is an excommunicable offense at the time of the abortion. Canon 1323 provides that the following do not incur a sanction, those who are not yet 16, are unaware of a law, do not advert to it or are in error about its scope, were forced or had an unforeseeable accident, acted out of grave fear, or who lacked the use of reason (except culpably, as by drunkenness). Thus a woman forced by an abusive husband to have an abortion would not incur an excommunication, for instance, whereas someone culpably under the influence of drugs or alcohol would (canon 1325).

In any case, whether one has been excommunicated or not, the sin of abortion must be confessed as the taking of innocent human life (5th Commandment). If the penitent did not know about this law at the time of the abortion then he or she was NOT excommunicated. If the person knew about the law but there were extenuating circumstances (such as mentioned above concerning c. 1323) then these factors should be mentioned to the confessor. He will say whether he has the faculty from the bishop to absolve from this excommunication or whether he even needs to. If he does not, he will privately and secretly obtain absolution from the bishop or send the person to a confessor who has that power.

A person who believes they have been excommunicated must refrain from Holy Communion until both absolution for the sin and absolution for the excommunication has been given.

Like I said, it's not simply a matter of running into the confessional. It's a process. The parish priest has to get permission to absolve otherwise he simply can't no matter how much weeping goes on in the confessional.

However I do think there's a death clause. If you are dying on your death bed I think any priest can absolve your sins even if you are excommunicated. But it is a big deal. Done publicly it is a very big deal.

jallman · Mar 10, 2009

talloulou said:
However I do think there's a death clause. If you are dying on your death bed I think any priest can absolve your sins even if you are excommunicated. But it is a big deal. Done publicly it is a very big deal.

Well the public humiliation, especially in a predominantly catholic country, is the serious injury to a person. Who is really worried that a man dressed in drag carrying a staff is really gonna stop you from going to heaven if he throws a tantrum?

talloulou · Mar 10, 2009

jallman said:
Well the public humiliation, especially in a predominantly catholic country, is the serious injury to a person. Who is really worried that a man dressed in drag carrying a staff is really gonna stop you from going to heaven if he throws a tantrum?

Well I did find it funny that one of the drs. involved in this case said he really didn't care if he was excommunicated or not he was still going to church whenever he felt like it. :mrgreen:

Felicity · Mar 10, 2009

You know what, talloulou, I apologize. In the case of abortion--one would need to get the verbal okay from the bishop. But a regular priest can arrange that.