• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Raped 9-Year-Old Has Abortion

jallman said:
And if you have problems with the Church having such a bad rep, perhaps instead of apologizing for it, you may wish to take up the call to change it for the better. Or stop identifying yourself with a pedophile enabling institution. :shrug:
Click to expand...

What do you mean a bad rep? It has a bad rep amongst some people, amongst the liberals and the media and such and amongst some fundamentalist Protestants. Even with the pedophile scandals I sure as hell do not think of the church as being something negative and I'm an Anglican.
 
Vader said:
No, Felicity, we're not closing the thread because you do not like us picking on the Catholic religion.
.
Click to expand...
Your a Mormon right? It is strange you don't see what the Catholic church represents in the West and who you are joining forces with to attack it and bring it down to your own ultimate doom.
 
Wessexman said:
What do you mean a bad rep? It has a bad rep amongst some people, amongst the liberals and the media and such and amongst some fundamentalist Protestants. Even with the pedophile scandals I sure as hell do not think of the church as being something negative and I'm an Anglican.
Click to expand...

I'm conservative and for me the Catholic church has a bad rap. Personally I think it's well deserved.

That said my disgust for the church has never carried over as disgust for all its members. Practically my whole family is Catholic.
 
Wessexman said:
Your a Mormon right? It is strange you don't see what the Catholic church represents in the West and who you are joining forces with to attack it and bring it down to your own ultimate doom.
Click to expand...

Seriously?:confused: Joining forces with? As if non-religious folks are some dark side team. :roll:
 
talloulou said:
I'm conservative and for me the Catholic church has a bad rap. Personally I think it's well deserved.
Click to expand...
Yes but you have a strange, at least for a conservative, thing about religion. If you're a conservative you'd be rather silly to put out such a message. In some ways the church is conservatism in action.

I'd say most conservatives except for those who are fundamentalist Protestants and despise the RCC for that, do not consider it is a bad institution.

That said my disgust for the church has never carried over as disgust for all its members. Practically my whole family is Catholic.
Click to expand...
I'm an Anglican, a high church even Anglo-Catholic and I have nothing but respect for the church.
 
Last edited:
talloulou said:
Seriously?:confused: Joining forces with? As if non-religious folks are some dark side team. :roll:
Click to expand...

Certainly, secularists and secularism will have no mercy on the Mormons. Vader is silly to team up with such.

What is wrong with that? The likes of Dawkins and many others can scream about cliched evils of religion but I'm not allowed to make a traditional conservative defence of customary religious beliefs against creeping secularism.
 
Last edited:
Wessexman said:
What do you mean a bad rep? It has a bad rep amongst some people, amongst the liberals and the media and such and amongst some fundamentalist Protestants. Even with the pedophile scandals I sure as hell do not think of the church as being something negative and I'm an Anglican.
Click to expand...

Well good for you, sport. I'm Catholic, fairly conservative, and defend the religious...well, religiously. I think the Catholic Church has a well deserved bad reputation.

So what now? Huh?
 
jallman said:
Well good for you, sport. I'm Catholic, fairly conservative, and defend the religious...well, religiously. I think the Catholic Church has a well deserved bad reputation.
Click to expand...
Why? Because a few priests committed some bad acts? Shock-horror!:roll:
 
Last edited:
Wessexman said:
Why? Because a few priests committed some bad acts? Shock-horror!:roll:
Click to expand...

No. Not because a few priests committed some bad acts. Because the upper echelons of the Catholic Church, including the current Pope himself, implemented policies that assisted these bad men in escaping penalty and answering for their actions. Many of them were not even removed from the clergy as one would expect and that bodes very badly for the defense of the Church. It smacks of corruption within, arrogance toward the laws outside, cowardice in their relations with those who put their faith in the church, and desperation to sell out it's faith in God just to protect it's image.

Those things just don't seem very godly to me.

But if it was about a handful of priests who had done bad things, you would win this debate, hands down. But it isn't about that at all. It's about the corruption that was unmasked when investigation went into the handling of these very bad men by an institution that is supposed to instruct its flock in overcoming corruption.

Sordid and shameful. No other way to describe it.
 
jallman said:
No. Not because a few priests committed some bad acts. Because the upper echelons of the Catholic Church, including the current Pope himself, implemented policies that assisted these bad men in escaping penalty and answering for their actions. Many of them were not even removed from the clergy as one would expect and that bodes very badly for the defense of the Church. It smacks of corruption within, arrogance toward the laws outside, cowardice in their relations with those who put their faith in the church, and desperation to sell out it's faith in God just to protect it's image.

Those things just don't seem very godly to me.

But if it was about a handful of priests who had done bad things, you would win this debate, hands down. But it isn't about that at all. It's about the corruption that was unmasked when investigation went into the handling of these very bad men by an institution that is supposed to instruct its flock in overcoming corruption.

Sordid and shameful. No other way to describe it.
Click to expand...
It is well known there were cover-ups but I still think that this was a minority of people involved, often with the misguided but genuine idea of preserving the name of the church, it is something that has now mostly been cleared up. Such behaviour as cover-ups is normal in such organisations, the police and army and such are famous for closing ranks, I don't know much about the current Pope's involvement but I don't think in anyway this is a permanent sullying of the Church's name that some, often with agenda's, want to make it. It was regrettable, it could have been handled better but was not an evil conspiracy.

Also the relationship of a body that could once depose Emperors and Kings and the secular authority is always going to be tense. There was a sense in which the church wished to deal with this problem themselves, despite their manifold powerlessness in this day and age to take what amounts to criminal justice against its clergy.
 
Last edited:
Wessexman said:
It is well known there were cover-ups but I still think that this was a minority of people involved, often with the misguided but genuine idea of preserving the name of the church, it is something that has now mostly been cleared up. Such behaviour as cover-ups is normal in such organisations, the police and army and such are famous for closing ranks, I don't know much about the current Pope's involvement but I don't think in anyway this is a permanent sullying of the Church's name that some, often with agenda's, want to make it. It was regrettable, it could have been handled better but was not an evil conspiracy.

Also the relationship of a body that could once depose Emperors and Kings and the secular authority is always going to be tense. There was a sense in which the church wished to deal with this problem themselves, despite their manifold powerlessness in this day and age to take what amounts to criminal justice against its clergy.
Click to expand...

Then I think the Church should stop the pretense that it is above the pettiness of normal organizations and is nothing to set apart as a vision of guidance. Then it should make great strides to reform these issues and take great pains to show contrition through its transformation that will ultimately redeem it.

As it stands, I have not seen that attitude of true contrition from the Church. What I have seen is an abomination of arrogance and a mask of feigned indignation, not for what occurred within, but for the justified questions and scorn directed at it from without.
 
jallman said:
Then I think the Church should stop the pretense that it is above the pettiness of normal organizations and is nothing to set apart as a vision of guidance. Then it should make great strides to reform these issues and take great pains to show contrition through its transformation that will ultimately redeem it.
Click to expand...
I think it has.

As it stands, I have not seen that attitude of true contrition from the Church. What I have seen is an abomination of arrogance and a mask of feigned indignation, not for what occurred within, but for the justified questions and scorn directed at it from without.
Click to expand...
When the Pope came to Australia he made quite a few heartfelt apologies for what had happened. Fundamentally I think it was a unfortunate issue and could have been handled better, however I don't think it sullied the whole 2000 year institution at the time and certainly not now. One must no overlook the agenda of those who try and turn this issue into something that seemingly they think destroys the church and any legitimacy it has.
 
Wessexman said:
I think it has.


When the Pope came to Australia he made quite a few heartfelt apologies for what had happened. Fundamentally I think it was a unfortunate issue and could have been handled better, however I don't think it sullied the whole 2000 year institution at the time and certainly not now. One must no overlook the agenda of those who try and turn this issue into something that seemingly they think destroys the church and any legitimacy it has.
Click to expand...

It would be one thing if this were the only high profile incident in history. But the whole history of the Church has been one of scandal after scandal after scandal.

The Church has isues. A lot of them. And I don't see much in the way of reformation of these issues. I see it trying to cling to failing idealogies and operating as if it does not need to move with the world, but against it in so many ways. I don't think that God's Holy Church should be in direct conflict with the rest of His creation in almost every facet of it's dealings. It is arrogant and impertinent and I am not satisfied with it anymore.
 
jallman said:
It would be one thing if this were the only high profile incident in history. But the whole history of the Church has been one of scandal after scandal after scandal.
Click to expand...
I completely disagree. It has been attacked a lot but I think that is a massive cliche. The British gov't has had as many scandals as the church, without even going into the manifold crimes and scandals of gov'ts as whole. The history of the last few centuries compared with those when the church held sway in terms of human oppression and atrocities is hardly a good record for the modernists. The supposed church oppression seems rather quaint behind the sheer brutality of the 20th century.

When Henry VIII had his massive inquest into the monasteries in England after all the "Enlightened" had been complaining, if my memory serves, he found much to his displeasure that there wasn't too much in constant accusations of corruption in them. The so called scandals of the church are very much over done.


The Church has isues. A lot of them. And I don't see much in the way of reformation of these issues. I see it trying to cling to failing idealogies and operating as if it does not need to move with the world
Click to expand...
So what you are saying is it should abandon its traditions and surrender full on to modernism? The church is one of those last bastions of traditionalism in the world and I for one want to see it preserved.

but against it in so many ways. I don't think that God's Holy Church should be in direct conflict with the rest of His creation in almost every facet of it's dealings. It is arrogant and impertinent and I am not satisfied with it anymore.
Click to expand...
I wish more institutions had not fled the field and abandoned it to the modernists, centralists, liberals, lefitsts and such almost wholesale. It makes me sad to think of what has happened to my CoE.
 
Last edited:
Wessexman said:
I wish more institutions had not fled the field and abandoned it to the modernists, centralists, liberals, lefitsts and such almost wholesale. It makes me sad to think of what has happened to my CoE.
Click to expand...

As you can see, sometimes there is overwhelming pressure and vilification of the entire Church as a result of individual's sins and bigoted exaggeration that often blends some fact with much fiction.

Your examples of similar vilification and historical bias and inaccuracies are appreciated.
 
jallman said:
Well good for you, sport. I'm Catholic, fairly conservative, and defend the religious...well, religiously. I think the Catholic Church has a well deserved bad reputation.

So what now? Huh?
Click to expand...

You "renounced" your Catholicism...remember?:roll:
 
jallman said:
It would be one thing if this were the only high profile incident in history. But the whole history of the Church has been one of scandal after scandal after scandal.

The Church has isues. A lot of them. And I don't see much in the way of reformation of these issues. I see it trying to cling to failing idealogies and operating as if it does not need to move with the world, but against it in so many ways. I don't think that God's Holy Church should be in direct conflict with the rest of His creation in almost every facet of it's dealings. It is arrogant and impertinent and I am not satisfied with it anymore.
Click to expand...

They crucified Jesus.:doh
 
Felicity said:
You "renounced" your Catholicism...remember?:roll:
Click to expand...

Why don't you worry about the detriment to the Church your constant apologetics cause and I will worry about my standing with the Church and how I can help to change it for the better, hmm?
 
Felicity said:
As you can see, sometimes there is overwhelming pressure and vilification of the entire Church as a result of individual's sins and bigoted exaggeration that often blends some fact with much fiction.

Your examples of similar vilification and historical bias and inaccuracies are appreciated.
Click to expand...

More nonsensical bull****.

Give it up, Felicity.

This thread isn't getting closed because you, the great defender of Catholic hypocrisy, don't like its contents.
 
jallman said:
Why don't you worry about the detriment to the Church your constant apologetics cause and I will worry about my standing with the Church and how I can help to change it for the better, hmm?
Click to expand...

We both will stand in judgement.;)
 
jallman said:
Why don't you worry about the detriment to the Church your constant apologetics cause
Click to expand...
Personally, I see no detriment. What do you want Catholics to abandon the field to the idiots who constantly squawk about the inquisition or Galileo is that going to improve matters?
 
Wessexman said:
Personally, I see no detriment. What do you want Catholics to abandon the field to the idiots who constantly squawk about the inquisition or Galileo is that going to improve matters?
Click to expand...

I haven't seen anyone squawk about Galileo or the Inquisition here but you at this point. So...what was that about idiots?:doh
 
jallman said:
I haven't seen anyone squawk about Galileo or the Inquisition here but you at this point. So...what was that about idiots?:doh
Click to expand...
Don't be silly, did I suggest I was talking about this thread alone? Did you not talk about Felicity in general?

Were we not talking about Felicity's and other Catholic apologist's(I'm not using that term in a derogatory way.) general actions?

I for one have been confronted with such cliched idiocy on quite a few occasions. Is it a good move to just abandon the field to them?
 
Wessexman said:
Don't be silly, did I suggest I was talking about this thread alone? Did you not talk about Felicity in general?

Were we not talking about Felicity's and other Catholic apologist's(I'm not using that term in a derogatory way.) general actions?

I for one have been confronted with such cliched idiocy on quite a few occasions. Is it a good move to just abandon the field to them?
Click to expand...

Of course not. You will never hear me condemn the Church for Galileo as that whole issue has been recounted in a very inaccurate way from how it actually occurred. The Church had very little guilt in the Galileo issue...other than actually condemning him to death. But that was a different time.

Forgive me for brushing aside talk of the Inquisition and Galileo as if it were irrelevant. I thought we were discussing the Church's complicity in allowing pedophile priests to bugger little kids all over the world without a care for the damage they were doing to the kids and having only a concern for the reputation of a Church gone wrong.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom