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Raped 9-Year-Old Has Abortion

UtahBill said:
What is heresy, if not simply teaching something that goes against church teachings? And why should any of us suppose that the church is the sole source of truth and light?
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jallman "was" Catholic until his "renunciation"--Catholics "care" about church teaching. I was speaking from one Catholic to another who has decided to no longer be one.

But...as I have pointed out in threads elsewhere--there is Biblical reason--and for you the very words of JESUS--that tell you why you should suppose that the Church is the authoritative body that it is.
 
jallman said:
You're not really gonna sit here and try to refute that Augustine, at least, was a rabid misogynist who injected a genuine hatred of women and a blame for all original sin on them into the Catholic dialogue are you?

Reaally?
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Context please?

Also--theologians--even Sainted theologians, are not the Church. Saint's sinned too.:roll:
 
Felicity said:
jallman "was" Catholic until his "renunciation"--Catholics "care" about church teaching. I was speaking from one Catholic to another who has decided to no longer be one.

But...as I have pointed out in threads elsewhere--there is Biblical reason--and for you the very words of JESUS--that tell you why you should suppose that the Church is the authoritative body that it is.
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Most Christian churches use the words of Paul far more than the words of Christ. Seems most christians are actually Paulists....
Now, tell me where in the NT does Jesus indicate that the catholic church is an authoritave body?:roll:
 
jallman said:
What is bigoted about pointing out that the Church doesn't exactly have a spotless track record when it comes to human rights?
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Context. Historical context MATTERS. No one claims a "spotless" record--the Church is both an earthly institution and a Divine institution. However--blaming the Church ad nauseum while ignoring all other historical failings of man is hypocritical.
 
Felicity said:
Did I say you lied? I said you "misrepresented." To lie means assumes that you are being purposeful false, rather than simply poorly informed and formulating your statements based on ignorance.
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Well I'm not ignorant when it comes to Catholicism.

See--that's ignorance. There's plenty Biblically that show her virginity prefigured in the OT--but since I'm pretty certain you're not interested in rational theological discussion, and would rather continue with the Catholic bashing, I'll save the effort.
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This has nothing to do with the fact that the church is and always has been a misogynistic institution. I could give you numerous examples going back 100's of years as well as examples from yesterday so spare me.

There are also solid theological reasons for the male only priesthood, and to obstinately deny tenets of the faith and to further actively flout it is grounds for excommunication.
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Solid my ass. The only thing that's solid is the church is and always has been misogynistic.

Bull****. The Church has accepted her failings and apologized profusely and made extensive strides in addressing never letting it happen again. In fact, in order for me to even be able to supervise a youth center at my local parish, I had to go through something called Veritas training. USCCB - (OCYP) - Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People This is one of the ways the Church has addressed the issue.

The Pope himself has REPEATEDLY expressed regret and sorrow and disgust over that chapter in time. YouTube - Pope Benedict XVI apologizes for pedophile priests

To say no robed/hatted man has said boo is an utter LIE because unless you have lived under a rock and plugged your ears to it, the Church has done penance for it and continues to do so.
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Name the pedophile priests that have been excommunicated. I'll wait but I won't hold my breath because I happen to know there are none.


Get your parent's annulment and read it. It's not like that at all.
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I have. It was mailed to my mother upon her request. Had she not found out through the grapevine and called the church for this info she'd never have known her 10 year marriage was overturned. According to the church the marriage never happened. The sacrament didn't take place. The reason was mental illness because my father was a drunk. He wasn't a drunk when he got married though. He started that crap 5 years in and 4 kids down the road but I suppose those details were lost on the robed men with funny hats.


The other part is just you being offensive for the sake of being offensive.
Your opinion of the Church changes nothing. It has survived persecution in the past, it continues to do so.
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It's becoming irrelevant. It's antiquated. It's a house of hypocrisy. If you think any of that makes me gleeful you're wrong. I want something to believe in. The fact that a despicable farce has been made of the house of God is actually disappointing to me. At least if I could believe that they really believed I'd find some solace in the faith of others. But to watch a bunch of bishops running around acting like tards while others come to their defense is both sad and maddening.
 
Felicity said:
Context please?

Also--theologians--even Sainted theologians, are not the Church. Saint's sinned too.:roll:
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You are going to tell me that Augustine did not deeply influence the culture of the Church in a way that still ripples through the Vatican today?

And that Augustine, while perhaps not the one that said it first, didn't promote the philosophy that woman:

The curse God pronounced on your sex weighs still on the world. Guilty, you must bear its hardships. You are the devil's gateway, you desecrated that fatal tree, you first betrayed the law of God, you who softened up with your cajoling words the man against whom the devil could not prevail by force. The image of God, the man Adam, you broke him, it was child's play to you. You deserved death, and it was the son of God who had to die!
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Not to mention St Jerome who translated the Vulgate...

Eve in paradise was a virgin ... understand that virginity is natural and that marriage comes after the Fall. Thus it must be bad to touch a woman. If indulgences is nonetheless granted to the marital act, this is only to avoid something worse. But what value can be recognized in a good that is allowed only with a view of preventing something worse?
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The Church was founded on misogyny but it's a twisted misogyny that cloaks itself under the illogic that since the Virgin Mary is revered, that all women are revered and that is simply not the case. The very sexuality of womanhood is damned from the very beginning.

It's really disgusting to read too deeply.
 
UtahBill said:
Most Christian churches use the words of Paul far more than the words of Christ. Seems most christians are actually Paulists....
Now, tell me where in the NT does Jesus indicate that the catholic church is an authoritave body?:roll:
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Matthew 16
17* And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18* And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19* I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Catholic's trace their Apostolic liniage straight back to Peter:

JewishEncyclopedia.com - KEY

JewishEncyclopedia.com - BINDING AND LOOSING
 
Felicity said:
Context. Historical context MATTERS. No one claims a "spotless" record--the Church is both an earthly institution and a Divine institution. However--blaming the Church ad nauseum while ignoring all other historical failings of man is hypocritical.
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We aren't talking about the historical failings of mankind. We are talking about the gross misconduct of the Church. Which is an institution of man so maybe we are talking about the former.

I'm sorry, felicity, but I can't sit here and support an institution that is driving itself into the gutter of history. My faith in God is as strong as ever but my faith in the Church died with John Paul II and it was buried the day Ratzinger took the Throne of Peter.
 
jallman said:
You are going to tell me that Augustine did not deeply influence the culture of the Church in a way that still ripples through the Vatican today?

And that Augustine, while perhaps not the one that said it first, didn't promote the philosophy that woman:



Not to mention St Jerome who translated the Vulgate...



The Church was founded on misogyny but it's a twisted misogyny that cloaks itself under the illogic that since the Virgin Mary is revered, that all women are revered and that is simply not the case. The very sexuality of womanhood is damned from the very beginning.

It's really disgusting to read too deeply.
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Is there some reason you are not providing links to your sources?
 
Back around 1972, I had a young catholic friend in Cuba who asked my advice about some issues with his father. While home on leave, he got into a big fight with Daddy about going to confession. Dad said son MUST confess weekly, son says since he doesn't get drunk and consort with whores like Dad does, he doesn't have much need for confession.
Seems that Dad confessed weekly, and weakly, as he turned around and committed the same moral transgressions often. I don't believe it is catholic teachings that confessing a sin one week allows the same sin to be committed the next week. But perhaps someone can enlighten me on that...:lol:
 
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Felicity said:
Matthew 16
17* And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18* And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19* I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Catholic's trace their Apostolic liniage straight back to Peter:

JewishEncyclopedia.com - KEY

JewishEncyclopedia.com - BINDING AND LOOSING
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and not ONE of the popes after Peter was a sexist pig, a jew hater, a protestant killer, a woman hater, etc.?

Today's church is nothing like the early church, not that we have much authoritative info on what it was like, but surely what passes as church today did not exist during the time of Jesus.
There are NO churches on earth that consistently practices the teachings of Jesus Christ...especially those that assume the most important creation of God (mankind) as sinful, loathsome creatures...
 
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UtahBill said:
and not ONE of the popes after Peter was a sexist pig, a jew hater, a protestant killer, a woman hater, etc.?
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What does that have to do with anything? The Pope is not the Catholic Church. It's an earthly and Divine institution. I gave you Jesus' words and the context of the meaning so you go off in another direction so you can maintain your anti-Catholic assumption. Whatever.


Today's church is nothing like the early church, not that we have much authoritative info on what it was like, but surely what passes as church today did not exist during the time of Jesus.
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Check out the way the early church worshipped and you'll change your mind.

There are NO churches on earth that consistently practices the teachings of Jesus Christ...especially those that assume the most important creation of God (mankind) as sinful, loathsome creatures...
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Of course not--because Pope Utah Bill--imbued with authority from...where? SAYS SO.:roll:
 
talloulou said:
Well I'm not ignorant when it comes to Catholicism.

This has nothing to do with the fact that the church is and always has been a misogynistic institution. I could give you numerous examples going back 100's of years as well as examples from yesterday so spare me.

Solid my ass. The only thing that's solid is the church is and always has been misogynistic.



Name the pedophile priests that have been excommunicated. I'll wait but I won't hold my breath because I happen to know there are none.


I have. It was mailed to my mother upon her request. Had she not found out through the grapevine and called the church for this info she'd never have known her 10 year marriage was overturned. According to the church the marriage never happened. The sacrament didn't take place. The reason was mental illness because my father was a drunk. He wasn't a drunk when he got married though. He started that crap 5 years in and 4 kids down the road but I suppose those details were lost on the robed men with funny hats.




It's becoming irrelevant. It's antiquated. It's a house of hypocrisy. If you think any of that makes me gleeful you're wrong. I want something to believe in. The fact that a despicable farce has been made of the house of God is actually disappointing to me. At least if I could believe that they really believed I'd find some solace in the faith of others. But to watch a bunch of bishops running around acting like tards while others come to their defense is both sad and maddening.
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No, that's okay...you can ignore the fact that I gave you THE Pope saying exactly what you said no Catholic bishop has said....And then continue asserting you lies and harping on supposed Church misogyny and blaming the Church when it appears your dad LIED to them about not being able to reach your mother and obfusacating the facts so he could get an annulment. That's fine.:roll:
 
Felicity said:
Check out the way the early church worshipped and you'll change your mind.


Of course not--because Pope Utah Bill--imbued with authority from...where? SAYS SO.:roll:
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What historical document exists that tells me how the early church worshipped? Got any that are NOT written by a catholic?

Yep, in Utah there is a church that has its own issues, but I would rather live here than in that small minded world of yours...:2razz:
 
UtahBill said:
What historical document exists that tells me how the early church worshipped? Got any that are NOT written by a catholic?
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Duh--:doh Are you serious? You answer your OWN question with that statement.

UtahBill said:
Today's church is nothing like the early church, not that we have much authoritative info on what it was like, but surely what passes as church today did not exist during the time of Jesus.
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The only Christian Church for 1500 years was the Catholic Church. That would explain why there were no Early Christian documents not written by Catholics.
 
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Felicity said:
No, I don't doubt they are the words--but as I've said repeatedly--CONTEXT matters. That--and if you're getting it from www.catholicchurchisabunchofwomanhaters.com ...well...context matters.
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Wow, I don't know how offended I should be that you would even suggest that I used a site like that as a reference as that kind of insult from you is a scenario I never anticipated.
 
jallman said:
Wow, I don't know how offended I should be that you would even suggest that I used a site like that as a reference as that kind of insult from you is a scenario I never anticipated.
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So link. What's the hold up?

And quit with the "offendid" stuff./ With all the **** you and others have spewed here...spare me the drama:roll:
 
Felicity said:
Duh--:doh Are you serious? You answer your OWN question with that statement.
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yes I did, because I knew that you can not....
The history books, even catholic history books, are full of the evil deeds done by the early churches, the christians and the jews, and later on the catholics against the protestants, and vice versa.
A religion is only as good as its practices.....
 
UtahBill said:
yes I did, because I knew that you can not....
The history books, even catholic history books, are full of the evil deeds done by the early churches, the christians and the jews, and later on the catholics against the protestants, and vice versa.
A religion is only as good as its practices.....
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What--??? What are you talking about? There were no "Christians" that weren't Catholic in the early Church--because the early Church was Catholic.:doh
 
Felicity said:
What--??? What are you talking about? There were no "Christians" that weren't Catholic in the early Church--because the early Church was Catholic.:doh
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intuitively obvious to the most casual observer, at that time, if you were a christian, you were most likely a catholic...
BUT, there were other christians, various christian cults were either absorbed by the main denomination, catholics, or they were persecuted.....
 
Felicity said:
So link. What's the hold up?
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Hyperlinks don't take you to textbooks and references. I imagine if you type a portion of the phrase into google, you will find whatever it is you are looking for.

And quit with the "offendid" stuff./ With all the **** you and others have spewed here...spare me the drama:roll:
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I have stated nothing that wasn't entirely true and have not made the first assertion against your personal integrity and reputation. If you find honest discussion about the Church unpalatable unless it is tempered with "if it pleases the Pope" before every statement, perhaps discussion of the Church is not for you and a reexamination of your own faith in the flawed institution is in order.
 
UtahBill said:
intuitively obvious to the most casual observer, at that time, if you were a christian, you were most likely a catholic...
BUT, there were other christians, various christian cults were either absorbed by the main denomination, catholics, or they were persecuted.....
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Most often persecuted out of existence.
 
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