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Abortion Apologetics

Is it unnatural for parents to choose to educate their offspring?

Is it unnatural for people to choose to protect their loved ones (and often, strangers)?

Is it unnatural to choose to seek medical care when sick or injured?

Because someone consciously chooses to do something does not mean that thing is unnatural.

Pro-Choice women abortion is a natural choice for them personally.

Pro-Life women abortion is an unnatural choice for them personally.

Roseann:)
 
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I'm pro-life, when the Woman chooses to not abort, and pro-choice when the Woman chooses to abort, for whatever reasons she chooses.
NO ONE, not society, not government, or any individual person but the Woman has a Right to make that choice.
IMO, until becoming an enumerated/documented member of a society, the Woman has total sovereign rights over HER creation.
 
I'm pro-life, when the Woman chooses to not abort, and pro-choice when the Woman chooses to abort, for whatever reasons she chooses.
NO ONE, not society, not government, or any individual person but the Woman has a Right to make that choice.
IMO, until becoming an enumerated/documented member of a society, the Woman has total sovereign rights over HER creation.

I think we are about on the same page here, I personally have this view:

I care only about the fact that women have freedom to choose, what choice they make is in the first place none of my business and secondly, not for me to be judgemental about whatever choice a woman makes.

If a woman chooses to have the baby, good for her. My view is that pregnancy leave of 3 months minimum should become mandatory as well as parental leave for the father (though not 3 months, 1 month is fine, to be taken in the first 2 years of the child's life). And if a woman chooses to have an abortion, good for her, she was the master of her own destiny.
 
I have no need to worry about a car jacking... I don’t own a car because after learning how to drive I decided I hated driving a car and never drove again.

I walked, hitch hiked, rode a bike or used public transportation. Today, hubby is my chauffeur.

Perhaps, you don’t know that sometimes women want the man out of their life permanently and will give up child support but only if the man gives up his parental rights.

Why? Because she will be replacing him with a new man. Results no ex man and new man complications in her life.

Roseann:)

Not all are that bad. Anecdotal stories are easy to make.
 
I'm not interested in playing move the goalpost games.

eta:
No matter how you dress up the pig, abortion is not a natural choice.
What are you talking about, “playing move the goalpost games”? I haven’t changed anything I’ve said.
 
Setting the record straight...

I never said or argued that a women choosing to end an unwanted pregnancy was unnatural.

Clearly at that point in time it was natural for her otherwise she wouldn’t have chosen to end an unwanted pregnancy via an elective abortion.

Some women after having an abortion experience guilt and depression and the idea of having another abortion changes and ending an unwanted pregnancy is no longer natural for her.

Women who do not have that experience after having an elective abortion having another a elective abortion remains natural for them.

Based on the fact that there are women who do have multiple abortions. Which Abortion Patients Have Had a Prior Abortion? Findings from the 2014 U.S. Abortion Patient Survey

The point I was making had nothing whatsoever to do with the personal choice of the women. They have a legal right to make that choice.

The point you missed when I was posting to another poster was the subject we were debating and that it was not related to a woman’s personal choice.

It was a debate about the survival instinct, survival of the fittest and eventually to natural selection. And a potential negative impact due to elective abortions.

I was comparing the difference between the natural human body elimination via miscarriage. A spontaneous act of nature due to natural causes. Natural.

And, the elective abortion. A deliberate elimination human act using chemicals/medical instruments which is not due to natural causes mentioned above ^ Unnatural.

It was about the difference between a natural process and an unnatural process and my questioning a potential negative impact mainly on Natural Selection.

The poster and I were not debating Human Nature.

Roseann
Thanks for answering a question not asked of you, providing your opinion of abortion aspects that weren’t part of our discussion.
 
Pro-Choice women abortion is a natural choice for them personally.

Pro-Life women abortion is an unnatural choice for them personally.

Roseann:)
Your opinion is noted.
 
Thanks for answering a question not asked of you, providing your opinion of abortion aspects that weren’t part of our discussion.

You’re Welcome. Thank you for starting our discussion.

Just another polite reminder that our discussion began based on a post that I posted to another poster. You responded to that post which began our discussion.

Reminding you of the subject being discussed sets the record straight for the foundation of my original post and it’s subject matter to clarify that my original post you responded to was not the same subject we were discussing “Human Nature” and not my original subject that was innate instinct, survival of the fittest and natural selection.

It does make a difference in understanding my use of the word “unnatural” in comparison to the different subject you and I were discussing.

Roseann:)
 
Not all are that bad. Anecdotal stories are easy to make.

:cool: True, they are little stories based on hearsay rather than hard facts and very easy to make. Get the point?

Roseann:)
 
:cool: True, they are little stories based on hearsay rather than hard facts and very easy to make. Get the point?

Roseann:)

Not really. Presenting a negative scenario furthers your argument not at all. Calling something unnatural usually means the something unnatural is something you do not like. Pointing out individual behaviour only tells me of culture.. Terms more usually used by evolutionists such as natural or even unnatural would be talking about genetic variation in the alleles which record and transmit gene changes. It is only when a mutation establishes itself in the gene pool has any evolution occurred in the species. Emphasise "the species" and not anyone individual within the species.
 
Yes you can respond to the shortened version. Roseann:)

Shortened version
“abortions occur all the time in “nature” those abortions were originally described as miscarriages. The use of the word spontaneous as the key word to differentiate between a “nature” (natural) abortion and an abortion that is not caused by “nature”. Most miscarriages happen when the unborn baby has fatal genetic problems. Usually, these problems are unrelated to the mother.

An example of an unnatural abortion is when human females rely on human Doctors to mimic the miscarriages that occur all the time in “nature” sometimes for simply personal reasons and not for fatal genetic problems. Fatal Genetic Problems = Natural Selection. unnatural abortions (are due to) human interference with the natural process of Survival of the Fittest and Natural Selection.

Animal species (are not similar to) Human species. Animal species naturally follow natural law; the natural process of Survival of the Fittest, Natural Selection... etc. Humans are different they have the ability to interfere in that natural process(by) mimicking natural miscarriages (with) human made instruments

It is incorrect to equate induced abortion in humans with spontaneous abortion in wild animals.”


While abortion in the wild is spontaneous and in humans it is consciously decided there are similarities we should consider if we are to have an intelligent respect for the decisive and extensive role abortion, legal or illegal, plays in culture, society, religion, morals, economics, women and children.

As you pointed out self preservation is a fact of nature and abortion is the strategy for species and self preservation in times of extreme and consequential stress. Insufficient food, water, livable habitat, good health and over population are the stressors that trigger spontaneous abortion of a fetus that would be born weak or dead. Abortion preserves the female’s health, produces healthy offspring in the future and strengthens the health of the herd.

It’s important to recognize that pregnancy and birth during a time of extreme stress is an extinction strategy. Weakened females either die giving birth or are too weak to raise offspring and they die. Even if a female lives the herd is weaker.

In humans financial insecurity, emotional instability, poor health, hostile environment predict a debilitating outcome for mothers and children. They are the stressors that can cause spontaneous abortion or make women decide to abort rather than expose a child, herself or her family to a toxic and destructive situation.

That abortion is spontaneous in the wild but humans must make a conscious decision to abort doesn’t change the fact that stress triggered the abortion in both situations in order to preserve the female’s health and produce a healthy child/offspring later. Stress in the extreme has a similar effect in the wild and in human society.

There is no doubt that abortion is tragic. Photographs exist of animals mourning a dead fetus. But abortion is irrefutably and immutably a natural, life preserving, species protecting reaction to compelling and life threatening stresses. It is not helpful to make abortion into a moral or religious issue. It isn’t.

It is a natural strategy, conscious or unconscious, to protect the health of child-bearing females in bad times so strong children become possible later. Banning or restricting abortion circumvents the natural instinct to preserve the individual and the species.
 
You’re Welcome. Thank you for starting our discussion.

Just another polite reminder that our discussion began based on a post that I posted to another poster. You responded to that post which began our discussion.

Reminding you of the subject being discussed sets the record straight for the foundation of my original post and it’s subject matter to clarify that my original post you responded to was not the same subject we were discussing “Human Nature” and not my original subject that was innate instinct, survival of the fittest and natural selection.

It does make a difference in understanding my use of the word “unnatural” in comparison to the different subject you and I were discussing.

Roseann:)
I trust your word. :)
 
If I had to bet, I would bet that the leading cause of unnecessary abortions is the anti-abortion movement and, in particular, the Catholic Church.
 
If I had to bet, I would bet that the leading cause of unnecessary abortions is the anti-abortion movement and, in particular, the Catholic Church.
Really? How does that reasoning go?
 
Really? How does that reasoning go?

They oppose the use of effective methods of birth control which leads to unplanned pregnancies, which often end in abortion.
 
They oppose the use of effective methods of birth control which leads to unplanned pregnancies, which often end in abortion.
I'm afraid you recently lost whatever little credibility you had left in the "Quag and the Angel: a dialogue" thread when you backed blowhardism against truth, Miss. So this post of yours carries little or no weight.
 
While abortion in the wild is spontaneous and in humans it is consciously decided there are similarities we should consider if we are to have an intelligent respect for the decisive and extensive role abortion, legal or illegal, plays in culture, society, religion, morals, economics, women and children.

As you pointed out self preservation is a fact of nature and abortion is the strategy for species and self preservation in times of extreme and consequential stress. Insufficient food, water, livable habitat, good health and over population are the stressors that trigger spontaneous abortion of a fetus that would be born weak or dead. Abortion preserves the female’s health, produces healthy offspring in the future and strengthens the health of the herd.

It’s important to recognize that pregnancy and birth during a time of extreme stress is an extinction strategy. Weakened females either die giving birth or are too weak to raise offspring and they die. Even if a female lives the herd is weaker.

In humans financial insecurity, emotional instability, poor health, hostile environment predict a debilitating outcome for mothers and children. They are the stressors that can cause spontaneous abortion or make women decide to abort rather than expose a child, herself or her family to a toxic and destructive situation.

That abortion is spontaneous in the wild but humans must make a conscious decision to abort doesn’t change the fact that stress triggered the abortion in both situations in order to preserve the female’s health and produce a healthy child/offspring later. Stress in the extreme has a similar effect in the wild and in human society.

There is no doubt that abortion is tragic. Photographs exist of animals mourning a dead fetus. But abortion is irrefutably and immutably a natural, life preserving, species protecting reaction to compelling and life threatening stresses. It is not helpful to make abortion into a moral or religious issue. It isn’t.

It is a natural strategy, conscious or unconscious, to protect the health of child-bearing females in bad times so strong children become possible later. Banning or restricting abortion circumvents the natural instinct to preserve the individual and the species.

Abortion in the wild is sometimes carried out after birth.
 
I'm afraid you recently lost whatever little credibility you had left in the "Quag and the Angel: a dialogue" thread when you backed blowhardism against truth, Miss. So this post of yours carries little or no weight.

You are still desperate to defend your intellectual faceplant of a thread about skepticism disproving atheism.

Is blowhardism something else that you claim to have learned from the Stanford encyclopedia of philosophy?
 
You are still desperate to defend your intellectual faceplant of a thread about skepticism disproving atheism.

Is blowhardism something else that you claim to have learned from the Stanford encyclopedia of philosophy?
Stifle it. Miss. You know not what you say.
 
Stifle it. Miss. You know not what you say.

I'm just here for the laughs as you stick your foot in your mouth and then swear that it didn't happen. You do not learn from your mistakes because you just try to deny reality.
 
I'm just here for the laughs as you stick your foot in your mouth and then swear that it didn't happen. You do not learn from your mistakes because you just try to deny reality.
That's better. You're in your stride when at personal derogation. Stick to what you're good at.
 
That's better. You're in your stride when at personal derogation. Stick to what you're good at.

I have tried to have logical debates with you but you reject facts, and logic. Your hilariously absurd claim that skepticism disproves atheism is proof of that statement. You seem to believe that you can create bizarre arguments and other must play along to your fun-house mirror claims, but that isn't how logic or debates are required to flow. I first thought that you were a sophist but your arguments aren't that nuanced.
 
I have tried to have logical debates with you but you reject facts, and logic. Your hilariously absurd claim that skepticism disproves atheism is proof of that statement. You seem to believe that you can create bizarre arguments and other must play along to your fun-house mirror claims, but that isn't how logic or debates are required to flow. I first thought that you were a sophist but your arguments aren't that nuanced.
This is much better, yes. This is you. Stay with it. You don't gave much choice anyway, right. Have a nice day. Stay safe.
 
Pro-Life, Pro-Choice, Anti-Abortion
The only reasonable point of view

Comments?
Counter-arguments?
Conversions?

You really aren't interested in comments and counter-arguments. Conversations were dispensed with many posts ago.
 
I'm afraid you recently lost whatever little credibility you had left in the "Quag and the Angel: a dialogue" thread when you backed blowhardism against truth, Miss. So this post of yours carries little or no weight.

That's pretty much exactly how I would have responded, so one way or another I suppose you'll have to come up with a real response that's not an ad hominem argument.
 
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