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Can either side give up something so that an intelligent discussion can take place?

EMNofSeattle said:
1.) ZEF=baby
2.)No one is advocating killing women. Your sophistry doesn’t change that.
3.) I am advocating they are equals and neither party is lesser.
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1.) no those things are factually not "equal" .. maybe look up the word equal to clear up your confusion.
2.) again facts dont care about your feelings. If you dont agree with facs and the logic YOU put forward change your stance. If pro-choice advocates killing babies then prolife advocated killing women. AGain thats YOUR stance and you cant have it both ways LMAO
3.) once again thank you for proving the OP true because you stance factually does not do that and on this issue there is factually no such thing. Whether you like it or not there are TWO lives involved in this matter and ONE resides inside another. Its factually impossible to make them equal but prochoice is closer to that goal than prolife will ever be.

so here we are in the same spot based on YOUR logic your stances factual advocate killing women
and your stances also advocates they are lessers, their rights dont matter and that they should be second class citizens compared to a ZEF.

When that fact changes please let us know, thanks!

:popcorn2:
 
Bullseye said:
You should read that post. I pointed out the absolutely NO abortions and "abortions 'r' us" types are small percentages at each end of the spectrum.
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I'd like to see any Constitutional justification for having any restrictions on abortions beyond safety and pain-related ones.

If a woman believes she needs an abortion...is there some justification for the govt to interfere and decide that for her instead? How is that in any way the govt's business or obligation?

Should the govt look at the school loans she's obligated to pay off and the 2 kids she already has? Should it question a Dr. that says pregnancy "may" damage her kidneys? Should it demand she remain pregnant and give up medical school for several years? Where do you draw the line? And how is that the govt's business? Think about the rights that the Constitution protects for people...men and women equally. Privacy, due process, self-determination, bodily sovereignty, liberty, even life.
 
Lursa said:
I'd like to see any Constitutional justification for having any restrictions on abortions beyond safety and pain-related ones.

If a woman believes she needs an abortion...is there some justification for the govt to interfere and decide that for her instead? How is that in any way the govt's business or obligation?

Should the govt look at the school loans she's obligated to pay off and the 2 kids she already has? Should it question a Dr. that says pregnancy "may" damage her kidneys? Should it demand she remain pregnant and give up medical school for several years? Where do you draw the line? And how is that the govt's business? Think about the rights that the Constitution protects for people...men and women equally. Privacy, due process, self-determination, bodily sovereignty, liberty, even life.
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Let's go with the constitutional right to "life liberty and pursuit of happiness". Or maybe look at the Row v Wade decision.
 
Lursa said:
I'd like to see any Constitutional justification for having any restrictions on abortions beyond safety and pain-related ones.

If a woman believes she needs an abortion...is there some justification for the govt to interfere and decide that for her instead? How is that in any way the govt's business or obligation?

Should the govt look at the school loans she's obligated to pay off and the 2 kids she already has? Should it question a Dr. that says pregnancy "may" damage her kidneys? Should it demand she remain pregnant and give up medical school for several years? Where do you draw the line? And how is that the govt's business? Think about the rights that the Constitution protects for people...men and women equally. Privacy, due process, self-determination, bodily sovereignty, liberty, even life.
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Rights aren't everything Lursa. I believe though that the benefit of the doubt should go to innocent life like the unborn. I believe it is the duty of the government to protect innocent life above all else. At least up to a point. I don't think the life of the unborn should be protected to the point that the life or health of the woman is significantly imperiled.
 
weaver2 said:
Is it possible for pro-choice, and anti-abortion people to make compromises that might make possible an intelligent and realistic discussion with the possibility of creating workable laws about women's reproductive role? If so, what beliefs could each side give up?
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Among the sane, rational voters, yes. Among the fanatics, no f***ing way.
 
Bullseye said:
Let's go with the constitutional right to "life liberty and pursuit of happiness". Or maybe look at the Row v Wade decision.
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That only applies to people, to citizens. The unborn are neither.

And that is pointed out & confirmed in RvW.

Born and unborn cannot be treated equally under the law, it's not possible, unless you can explain some legal basis how?

(And btw, you quoted the DOI, not the BOR of the Const. There is no right to life enumerated specifically in the Const.)
 
Lursa said:
That only applies to people, to citizens. The unborn are neither.

And that is pointed out & confirmed in RvW.

Born and unborn cannot be treated equally under the law, it's not possible, unless you can explain some legal basis how?
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Ok, I'm not going to get into that quagmire.
 
Dayton3 said:
Rights aren't everything Lursa. I believe though that the benefit of the doubt should go to innocent life like the unborn. I believe it is the duty of the government to protect innocent life above all else. At least up to a point. I don't think the life of the unborn should be protected to the point that the life or health of the woman is significantly imperiled.
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That's nice. I disagree with almost all of that. The woman is innocent, she has committed no crime in getting pregnant. And as an already contributing member of society, she is to be more valued and protected in the interests of our society, the unborn may very well miscarry or be born severely defective.
 
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Lursa said:
That only applies to people, to citizens. The unborn are neither.

And that is pointed out & confirmed in RvW.

Born and unborn cannot be treated equally under the law, it's not possible, unless you can explain some legal basis how?

(And btw, you quoted the DOI, not the BOR of the Const. There is no right to life enumerated specifically in the Const.)
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Bullseye said:
Ok, I'm not going to get into that quagmire.
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So you are copping out now that I've shown you the actual parameters of the issue? I guess you arent very informed on it then, are you? And it seems, not interested in becoming so.

I did exactly as you asked:
Bullseye said:
Let's go with the constitutional right to "life liberty and pursuit of happiness". Or maybe look at the Row v Wade decision.
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Now I'm glad I didnt spend more time going into more depth.

Did you really think that this was a "simple" issue? :doh Jeebus, Mary, and Joe Cocker.
 
Lursa said:
So you are copping out now that I've shown you the actual parameters of the issue? I guess you arent very informed on it then, are you? And it seems, not interested in becoming so.
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No, I'm stepping out because you regurgitated and the slogans from those at one end of the spectrum.
 
Scrabaholic said:
I am not liberal, but I've never said "safe, legal and rare". I have always said "safe and legal", since watching a friend almost die from an illegal abortion. The numbers don't concern me as much as they do others (though prevention of unwanted pregnancy is highly desirable). I want every woman who wants an abortion to be able to obtain a safe and legal one.
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If you arent liberal and arent of the 'safe legal and rare' crowd then obviously that doesnt apply to you.> I fully get that some people have completely devalued human life to the point where the slaughter of 800,000 to 1,000,000 unborn children is irrelevant to you. Obviously you arent of the group I was referencing.
 
Lursa said:
Thanks again for the bumper stick opinion that you cannot support beyond your feelings.

Democrats are constantly working towards improving things so there are fewer abortions. We are the ones that support sex ed beyond abstinence only, we promote subsidized birth control which provably saves taxpayer $$ AND leads to fewer abortions, we are the ones that support clinics and other facilities where women can get ALL types of reproductive counseling, services, medical assistance for pregnancies, etc etc etc and we are the ones continually working on improving the socio-economic conditions of those challenged by those conditions.

What suggestions do you have that will lead to fewer abortions?
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I just offered it. Stop politicizing abortion> Start offering real and legitimate 'choice' with full financial support. I'm all for effective reproductive counseling and contraceptives. My positions re a holistic approach to poverty stricken communities that would aid in fewer pregnancies in poverty stricken minority communities has been offered numerous times in the gun control discussions.

My comments have nothing to do with 'feelings'. When a woman becomes pregnant she is carrying human life. regardless of the stage of development that life is in, it is a developing human being. You dehumanize it to justify its slaughter. I dont blame you.
 
Bullseye said:
No, I'm stepping out because you regurgitated and the slogans from those at one end of the spectrum.
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Nope, not a single thing was as you pretend...you just got in over your head and now run away.

You have no means to argue the issue beyond some bumper sticker view

Btw, I am the only person on this forum, and that I've seen anywhere, to point out that born and unborn cannot be treated equally under the law...so that's my personal focus on the issue (one of them). So that's 'original.'
 
VanceMack said:
I just offered it. Stop politicizing abortion> Start offering real and legitimate 'choice' with full financial support. I'm all for effective reproductive counseling and contraceptives. My positions re a holistic approach to poverty stricken communities that would aid in fewer pregnancies in poverty stricken minority communities has been offered numerous times in the gun control discussions.

My comments have nothing to do with 'feelings'. When a woman becomes pregnant she is carrying human life. regardless of the stage of development that life is in, it is a developing human being. You dehumanize it to justify its slaughter. I dont blame you.
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Well that's not 'conservative' at all...paying women to have babies? More govt oversight? More govt intrusion? Geez, you guys complain that the govt pays women to have more babies now with better welfare payments. Sorry, you are full of it.

What a load of BS. And all your terms reveal your vulnerability to your emotions: your use of slaughter...please. You've been told it's no such thing, you just use that word because you grasp it out of need to uphold your self-righteousness.
 
Lursa said:
Well that's not 'conservative' at all...paying women to have babies? More govt oversight? More govt intrusion? Geez, you guys complain that the govt pays women to have more babies now with better welfare payments. Sorry, you are full of it.

What a load of BS. And all your terms reveal your vulnerability to your emotions: your use of slaughter...please. You've been told it's no such thing, you just use that word because you grasp it out of need to uphold your self-righteousness.
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:lamo

FFS

I specifically point out how much you people DONT give a **** about any of this and how if you actually cared you could dedicate the resources you spend on the politics of abortion to actually providing real choice...and you assume government.

Because you dont give a **** about choice...or babies...or women.

As for government social spending...I'm more socially liberal than most 'liberals'. It just needs to be effective.
 
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VanceMack said:
My positions re a holistic approach to poverty stricken communities that would aid in fewer pregnancies in poverty stricken minority communities has been offered numerous times in the gun control discussions.
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You're gonna need to post your thoughts here.
Not going anywhere near the gun control forum to try to find your comments on fewer pregnancies.

I am interested in hearing your holistic thoughts on it. Might make for interesting discussion.
 
Dragonfly said:
You're gonna need to post your thoughts here.
Not going anywhere near the gun control forum to try to find your comments on fewer pregnancies.

I am interested in hearing your holistic thoughts on it. Might make for interesting discussion.
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Far too expansive to rewrite in a discussion that isnt going to get past pro and anti abortion...but think complete community restructuring.
 
Bullseye said:
Very good point. The cause of pregnancy is well known as are numerous contraception methods.

What also should be known is that abstinence is the only 100% effective contraception so a person has to understand that having sex MAY lead to pregnancy.
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If someone is old enough to be sexually active and they don't know that sex can lead to pregnancy they shouldn't be having sex. Making contraceptives easy to obtain, and teaching about how to properly use it, is far more effective than attempting to push abstinence as the primary form of birth control. I don't care if people want to go that route personally, but it won't work for the majority of people. Contraceptives and safe sex must be the focus.
 
VanceMack said:
Far too expansive to rewrite in a discussion that isnt going to get past pro and anti abortion...but think complete community restructuring.
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Copy and paste it into a new thread.

At least give it a shot at being something worth discussing.
 
Dragonfly said:
Copy and paste it into a new thread.

At least give it a shot at being something worth discussing.
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"I have given my solution numerous times. There has to be a MASSIVE change in mindset starting with the whole left/right rep/dem, black white bull****. 1st and foremost...regardless of the reasons/excuses, people need to commit to the message that nothing justifies the violence. Throw out the excuses. If you commit violent crimes your ass should go to prison for a looooong long time. Need more prison space? Build more prisons. The fact is that while people make excuses and create a revolving door justice system the victims are predominantly minority. Stop favoring the violent thug over the victims. Then commit to real investment in those communities. Government...private sector...challenge celebrities to put their money where their mouth is. If I was doing it I would pick the communities hardest hit and start with a community center. Renovate an existing facility or build a new one, but build a center for health care (yep...free), childcare (free to those working, going to school, or seeking work) and employ caregivers from the community (with intense oversight). Drug treatment centers to help people break free of the drug addictions. Training centers to teach people skills and basic education skills. Start hiring crew to demolish condemned buildings...clear them out. Completely clear the communities of the garbage and the graffiti. Better community policing. Identify housing that can be renovated and salvaged and hire local community members to work on the crews. Give them home ownership incentives along with a paycheck. No gentrification...build pride from within. Entice private sector business to build in those communities. Hell...how many sports stars in Chicago commission jerseys and shoes made in sweatshops in Asia? Why not open a Starter plant and hire people locally. Then focus on the schools. Kick the ****heads out that are disrupting the education experiences for others. Focus on education. Restart trade programs. Those are just starters.

Expensive as ****...I know. Worth the investment. If we are going to go in debt anyway I would rather see the debt go to bringing about positive long term sustainable changes."

The intent is to change a culture. That thread was about gun control but it all is part of the same problem. Of course you incorporate family planning, birth control, etc into this. The reality is that there are fewer unplanned pregnancies and abortions in more affluent communities. The goal is to create communities that are affluent and self sustaining.
 
VanceMack said:
"I have given my solution numerous times. There has to be a MASSIVE change in mindset starting with the whole left/right rep/dem, black white bull****. 1st and foremost...regardless of the reasons/excuses, people need to commit to the message that nothing justifies the violence. Throw out the excuses. If you commit violent crimes your ass should go to prison for a looooong long time. Need more prison space? Build more prisons. The fact is that while people make excuses and create a revolving door justice system the victims are predominantly minority. Stop favoring the violent thug over the victims. Then commit to real investment in those communities. Government...private sector...challenge celebrities to put their money where their mouth is. If I was doing it I would pick the communities hardest hit and start with a community center. Renovate an existing facility or build a new one, but build a center for health care (yep...free), childcare (free to those working, going to school, or seeking work) and employ caregivers from the community (with intense oversight). Drug treatment centers to help people break free of the drug addictions. Training centers to teach people skills and basic education skills. Start hiring crew to demolish condemned buildings...clear them out. Completely clear the communities of the garbage and the graffiti. Better community policing. Identify housing that can be renovated and salvaged and hire local community members to work on the crews. Give them home ownership incentives along with a paycheck. No gentrification...build pride from within. Entice private sector business to build in those communities. Hell...how many sports stars in Chicago commission jerseys and shoes made in sweatshops in Asia? Why not open a Starter plant and hire people locally. Then focus on the schools. Kick the ****heads out that are disrupting the education experiences for others. Focus on education. Restart trade programs. Those are just starters.

Expensive as ****...I know. Worth the investment. If we are going to go in debt anyway I would rather see the debt go to bringing about positive long term sustainable changes."

The intent is to change a culture. That thread was about gun control but it all is part of the same problem. Of course you incorporate family planning, birth control, etc into this. The reality is that there are fewer unplanned pregnancies and abortions in more affluent communities. The goal is to create communities that are affluent and self sustaining.
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Start voting Democrat
 
VanceMack said:
Support the party that enslaved blacks and crated the ****holes.

No thanks.
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No I said DEMOCRAT


You talk out of both sides of your mouth
Here you are talking about all kinds of free stuff from the government.....then you complain about it on another thread
 
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