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Pro-lifers: Justify the government telling pregnant women what to do

Felis Leo said:
If you are using these statistics to encourage women to have an abortion, you really are.
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I'm not using the statistics control any decision a woman makes about reproduction. When a women says they can't raise a child they know what they are talking about and I don't second guess their decision. I posted the statistics to show that your solution wasn't as wonderful as you think it is.
 
Felis Leo said:
Let me make it easier for you. Let's just say she says to you in confidence, "I don't want to carry some half-n***** baby." If pressed, she tells you that she does not care about the future of a mixed-race child. She is embarrassed of what her family would say, and she reveals herself to be a complete and total racist who just had the sexual encounter because she thought it would be fun to have a sexual encounter with a black man. But she holds black people in general in contempt. Does that change your calculus of her character?

Now, keep in mind, she should not be disallowed to have an abortion. My argument is not "Racists should be forced to carry unwanted mixed-race children." But as I told minnie, I am not going to suspend my moral judgment. The woman in this case is an evil racist.
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If some woman says she is embarrassed about having a fling and conceiving a mixed race child and she knows her racist family won't welcome such a child into the family, what would be moral about bringing a child into a situation where it will be hated.

If you are not preventing the abortion why are you informing us of your moral outrage about racist families and nazi flag flyers. Be outraged. Maintain your moral superiority. Just don't feel like you have to inform others they are immoral or evil.
 
Felis Leo said:
All well and good.

But I do not think I am obligated to suspend my moral judgment because someone is exercise a constitutionally protected right.

It is a constitutionally-protected right to have an abortion, for any reason whatsoever. But some reasons are immoral. Wanting to abort a baby because you would not want to carry a child of a certain race is immoral. The woman who does so is entitled to do so, and I shall not stop her from doing so. But she is evil.

Just like anyone is entitled to fly the Nazi Swastika flag in their front yard if they want to under the First Amendment. They cannot and should not be forced to take it down. But the person who does so is evil.
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Bodily autonomy , elective abortions within the parameters of Roe v Wade and Religious Liberty are not evil or immoral.

In fact I sincerely believe that any person, law or any country would force a women to continue an unwanted pregnancy is being immoral.

The woman is a moral agent.
She and her unborn cannot be separated before viability without the unborn dying.

It is up to the woman, her doctor , and her faith / conscience to make her own moral decision.

You have a right to your own morals and opinions but If you support a law forbidding a woman to have an abortion you would be interfering with her Constitutional rights as you have admitted.
 
Blue Donkey said:
Women have many reasons to get abortions. Most of them are legitimate. The only reason to do it that can be ignored by society is a medical emergency, which is not common. No woman or girl who lacks the time, money, and/or ability to take care of a baby should be forced to deliver it anyway. No woman or girl should be forced to suffer the next 8-9 months of her life knowing the baby will never know her and just bounce from one foster home to another. Why do all pro-lifers want this for children? Why do they think the government should decide for pregnant girls and women who will live and die? Why doesn't the government treat pregnant girls and women with the care, respect, and dignity they deserve during the most stressful times of their lives?
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Your actually saying the baby is better off dead than alive? How sick and twisted. Isn't if odd that all the people who support abortion had a mother who cared enough to give birth!
 
Integrityrespec said:
Your actually saying the baby is better off dead than alive? How sick and twisted. Isn't if odd that all the people who support abortion had a mother who cared enough to give birth!
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Did you seriously have to make up this stuff? There is nothing twisted here. Of course it is never better for a baby to be dead than alive . . . because that means the baby was born dead. Until childbirth, it is not a baby.
 
Blue Donkey said:
Did you seriously have to make up this stuff? There is nothing twisted here. Of course it is never better for a baby to be dead than alive . . . because that means the baby was born dead. Until childbirth, it is not a baby.
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Just because you tell yourself that little tale that it's not alive, it's not really a baby yet doesn't make it so. It's the liberal fairytale so they can excuse their murder of babies. Doesn't matter whether you lie to yourself and your liberal friends, that's what it is. Go up to any expectant mother and ask her whats that inside. I bet she says a baby. If it's not alive then why do you have to take medical steps to kill it while its still in the womb. You probably don't believe in the Holocaust either!
 
Felis Leo said:
I did not such thing. You can get an abortion for any reason or no reason whatsoever. But some reasons are utterly immoral.

Let me put it to you this way as I did to minnie616: Imagine if you knew a white woman acquaintance who had a consensual encounter with a black man and thought their protection had worked, but she ended up getting pregnant. Now imagine if she told you she wanted an abortion because, while she was perfectly okay with being a single mom, she would never want to carry a black baby. The abortion is morally neutral. The statement is utterly racist.

Would you not agree?
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So? So she's a racist. Yeah, I personally find that immoral but so what? We also have a 1st amendment that protects her.

That has nothing to do with the morality of abortion. The ONLY value that unborn has *is to the mother* until born. (Yes, I'd like to accord that to the father too, but cannot legally). No one in our society has any right at all to impose their vision of 'value' on that unborn...it is hers and hers alone.

All consequences, sacrifices, failure to uphold responsibilities and obligations to others, to society during pregnancy or raising the kid...all those are also hers alone. No one else will be suffering those in her place. No one else knows what her circumstances are...including a predilection to abuse a child she is prejudiced against because of race, or a interracial unborn that she secretly hates and continues to smoke, or drink, or do drugs during the pregnancy, damaging the unborn.

Now can you see why this CHOICE is never morally anyone elses?
 
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Felis Leo said:
Again, because the connotation is that the lives of children in foster care and the adoption system are not worth living. Especially if they never find a loving home and are aged out of the system. I think that someone claiming that they are doing someone a service by not allowing them to be born and be put up for adoption is morally bankrupt if only for the fact that they hold other such children awaiting adoption in such low esteem.

And taken to the opposite end, for those who make the argument that the adoption rates are so low that abortion is justified, they are consciously or unconsciously implying that if the adoption rates were high (say 90% or higher) that abortion should be taken off the table.

The entire line of reasoning is morally bankrupt however you slice it.
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What is morally bankrupt is encouraging women to unnecessarily produce MORE unwanted kids to add to that huge pool, which means those kids waiting, hoping for homes...for each new baby added, another, waiting, goes without. And these kids are aware, they are hoping for families. That is the immorality right there...actual harm done to kids waiting and hoping.
 
Felis Leo said:
All well and good.

But I do not think I am obligated to suspend my moral judgment because someone is exercise a constitutionally protected right.

It is a constitutionally-protected right to have an abortion, for any reason whatsoever. But some reasons are immoral. Wanting to abort a baby because you would not want to carry a child of a certain race is immoral. The woman who does so is entitled to do so, and I shall not stop her from doing so. But she is evil.

Just like anyone is entitled to fly the Nazi Swastika flag in their front yard if they want to under the First Amendment. They cannot and should not be forced to take it down. But the person who does so is evil.
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Your moral judgement should in no way affect a woman's decision regarding a pregnancy at all. Why on earth do you think it does or should? If she does not share your belief or morality...why is your's relevant to her pregnancy at all? She is the one who suffers (or has great joy)...not you.

Certainly your morality should not be imposed on her to induce any suffering...should it? (yes I realize you are "pro-choice" according to you) THAT would be immoral.
 
[video]https://images.app.goo.gl/5hDcjkyorUbP3oyv8[/video]
 
Integrityrespec said:
Just because you tell yourself that little tale that it's not alive, it's not really a baby yet doesn't make it so. It's the liberal fairytale so they can excuse their murder of babies. Doesn't matter whether you lie to yourself and your liberal friends, that's what it is. Go up to any expectant mother and ask her whats that inside. I bet she says a baby. If it's not alive then why do you have to take medical steps to kill it while its still in the womb. You probably don't believe in the Holocaust either!
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There you go again, proving a total lack of reading comprehension skills. Go back and read my post again. Think carefully about every word as it is defined in the dictionary. Then report to me exactly what I meant. I will wait.
 
narrowroad said:
Excellent point. Somehow living in the womb became a crime Never mind most of came here via that route.
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There is no point at all in that comment, only a completely false attack against me that came from nowhere. You just piled on top of it.
 
Felis Leo said:
Again, because the connotation is that the lives of children in foster care and the adoption system are not worth living. Especially if they never find a loving home and are aged out of the system. I think that someone claiming that they are doing someone a service by not allowing them to be born and be put up for adoption is morally bankrupt if only for the fact that they hold other such children awaiting adoption in such low esteem.

And taken to the opposite end, for those who make the argument that the adoption rates are so low that abortion is justified, they are consciously or unconsciously implying that if the adoption rates were high (say 90% or higher) that abortion should be taken off the table.

The entire line of reasoning is morally bankrupt however you slice it.
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Did you even bother to clicck on the link weaver posted or just look at the numbers? Full articles tell stories. A list of numbers is just a summary of what the story means. Reading stories will go a long way in helping you understand this is not all about numbers.

Nobody ever said babies are not worth living just because they will live in foster homes. The problem is they are treated like kids who are not worth living. There is too much fraud. People say they want to foster kids but don't take care of them. People decide to give them up when it turns out they were not healthy babies. People don't want babies with birth defects, which makes them hard to adopt. The baby itself is not worthless, but treated as such.
 
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Felis Leo said:
Or, let me make a parallel: Imagine if you knew a white woman acquaintance who had a consensual encounter with a black man and thought their protection had worked, but she ended up getting pregnant. Now imagine if she told you she wanted an abortion because, while she was perfectly okay with being a single mom, she would never want to carry a black baby. The abortion is morally neutral. The statement is utterly racist.
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It would be better for such a person to abort than parent the child. Though I wonder why a racist would be having sex with a black man...
 
Felis Leo said:
All well and good.

But I do not think I am obligated to suspend my moral judgment because someone is exercise a constitutionally protected right.

It is a constitutionally-protected right to have an abortion, for any reason whatsoever. But some reasons are immoral. Wanting to abort a baby because you would not want to carry a child of a certain race is immoral. The woman who does so is entitled to do so, and I shall not stop her from doing so. But she is evil.

Just like anyone is entitled to fly the Nazi Swastika flag in their front yard if they want to under the First Amendment. They cannot and should not be forced to take it down. But the person who does so is evil.
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You are definitely entitled to your opinion. I have no issue with that as long as you aren't trying to take rights away from people.
 
Integrityrespec said:
Your actually saying the baby is better off dead than alive? How sick and twisted. Isn't if odd that all the people who support abortion had a mother who cared enough to give birth!
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The so-and-so that birthed me should have aborted all her pregnancies. Though she didn't have a choice because abortion was illegal at the time.
 
Scrabaholic said:
It would be better for such a person to abort than parent the child. Though I wonder why a racist would be having sex with a black man...
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I brought up the example because there are plenty of racists, both men and women, who fetishize having sexual encounters with members of races and ethnic groups they consider their social inferiors. There are plenty of white men and women who would love to have a sexual tryst with, say, a black man or black woman, but would never want to be the parent of a mixed-race child or marry a black person.
 
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Felis Leo said:
I brought up the example because there are plenty of racists, both men and women, who fetishize having sexual encounters with members of races and ethnic groups they consider their social inferiors. There are plenty of white men and women who would love to have a sexual tryst with, say, a black man or black woman, but would never want to be the parent of a mixed-race child or marry a black person.
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I didn't know that.
 
Court Jester said:
"Most" of them?

Now wait for the spin part where you will list a bunch of inconveniences to be justified.
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Let me know when you learn exactly what "inconvenience" actually means to pregnant women. Pro-liflers downplay the consequential impacts of an unwanted pregnancy on a mother's life.

Okay. EMERGENCY as in life threatening would certainly be legitimate. Anything else?
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What "anytbing" do you want to talk about?

There you go, that is what I was waiting for. Every reason OTHER than a legitimate reason. Reasons which are grounded in personal inconvenience at best. Killing another so I don't have to be bothered.
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Explain to me how it is remotely possible to read my comment and completely reverse the meaning of it. I was clearly explaining why it is NOT a mere inconvenience at all, but 100% legitimate, and the morality of abortion.

They should be treated with care during the pregnancy because there are TWO HUMAN lives in the balance. If you are demanding respect be given to anyone who would murder her own flesh and blood, then not so much. Talk her out of doing if possible. Make her aware of the grave consequences if she does it, and the better alternatives.

But if she still does then she deserves nothing but scorn and ridicule. Sorry, you don't win an award for being a killer of innocents.
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Do you ever think about the fact that if pregnant women werre given the respect, dignity, love, and care they need to avoid seeking abortions, their chances of being labeled as murderers would drop? If you want to reduce the number of abortions, you want the number of people who feel like they need them to go down. That means fixing the problems which lead girls and poor single women to want abortions, regardless of how their unborn babies were conceived.
 
Blue Donkey said:
Let me know when you learn exactly what "inconvenience" actually means to pregnant women. Pro-liflers downplay the consequential impacts of an unwanted pregnancy on a mother's life.
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Nobody says that raising a child does not require a commitment to the loving care of a small person who relies on their parent for all of their needs. It would be easier just to load children, sick people, old people, and anyone you feel is less that worthy into ovens..... but that isn't very ethical.

Aborting a fetus is so much easier anyway. A small tiny being that some abortionist disposes for you--- you don't even have to dig a hole. Then all that is left is walking out abortion clinic and finding other soulless people to convince you you did the right thing. The hardest part of having an abortion is actually being reminded and confronted by the other people out their who are not going to excuse the immoral decision to kill an innocent.



Blue Donkey said:
Do you ever think about the fact that if pregnant women werre given the respect, dignity, love, and care they need to avoid seeking abortions, their chances of being labeled as murderers would drop? If you want to reduce the number of abortions, you want the number of people who feel like they need them to go down. That means fixing the problems which lead girls and poor single women to want abortions, regardless of how their unborn babies were conceived.
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"Feelings" don't trump actions, especially actions which kill innocents. If these women kill their babies they do so will full knowledge of what they are doing--- and that remains the job of those of us who reject abortion as unacceptable. To remind these women by way of tough love. Killing their baby is evil--- there are no loving ways to describe it.
 
Court Jester said:
Aborting a fetus is so much easier anyway. A small tiny being that some abortionist disposes for you--- you don't even have to dig a hole. Then all that is left is walking out abortion clinic and finding other soulless people to convince you you did the right thing.
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Do let us know when *your* body will suffer the ravages of pregnancy, k?



To remind these women by way of tough love. Killing their baby is evil--- there are no loving ways to describe it.
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Jesus weeps.
 
Court Jester said:
"Feelings" don't trump actions, especially actions which kill innocents. If these women kill their babies they do so will full knowledge of what they are doing--- and that remains the job of those of us who reject abortion as unacceptable. To remind these women by way of tough love. Killing their baby is evil--- there are no loving ways to describe it.
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Why are you going on and on again about 'innocence?' We've covered this and you havent directly answered why you value that "innocence" of the unborn that cannot act, cannot even form intent. It is the "innocence" of emptiness, a vacuum, the same "innocence" as that of a flower or a couch. Please tell me what value you see in that 'nothingness' of "innocence? And then please tell me why you value it more than the entirety of the life of a woman? (Who is also innocent of any evil.)

And since there's no pain or suffering for those aborted, it certainly doesnt rate all your "evil baby killing" hyperbole.

It's a value judgement, by society and by individual women. That moral judgement is left to the individual woman to decide since society, thru our Constitution, values all born people more.
 
Court Jester said:
Nobody says that raising a child does not require a commitment to the loving care of a small person who relies on their parent for all of their needs. It would be easier just to load children, sick people, old people, and anyone you feel is less that worthy into ovens, but that isn't very ethical.

Aborting a fetus is so much easier anyway. A small tiny being that some abortionist disposes for you - you don't even have to dig a hole. Then all that is left is walking out abortion clinic and finding other soulless people to convince you you did the right thing. The hardest part of having an abortion is actually being reminded and confronted by the other people out their who are not going to excuse the immoral decision to kill an innocent.
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You love to ignore the obvious fact that the pregnancy itself is a chronic medical syndrome only abortion can cure for every girl and women who tried her best to avoid conceiving her tiny embryo. There is no way to dance around it. I will ask until you answer: Why don't you care about the mother's quality of life during those nine months she is stuck with an unwanted human who should not existl?

And don't give me this crap about the embryo/fetus being totally innocent. It can't think or perceive anything. It can't do anything except suck its thumb and kick the mother. Why should innocence matter?

"Feelings" don't trump actions, especially actions which kill innocents. If these women kill their babies they do so will full knowledge of what they are doing - and that remains the job of those of us who reject abortion as unacceptable. To remind these women by way of tough love. Killing their baby is evil - there are no loving ways to describe it.
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Feelings trigger actions. You know that because you have feelings and act on them. So does everyone else. There is no way a thinking, functioning adult can be stupid enough to not understand this simple concept.

Why are you so convinced that a girl or woman who must have an abortion for very perosnal reasons should be called a baby killer and disrespected after the fact insteasd of given everything she needs to prevent the abortion from happening?
 
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